Bitch & Moan All You Want!

[highwater]

My god these QB threads suck..

Check.

It's like both sides are talking to a brick wall.

Check.

What is funny is the 'Huggers' and 'Haters' have switched sides.

I'm not sure I agree with that, but it is an interesting point.

But overall...these threads blow.

Check. Really, what are we doing here? I am amazed that certain posters (not to mention any names) continue to rant and rave about Boller, when the guy is a second stringer who has not thrown a single pass all season. And yet he still seems to attract criticism -- for what? For how he sits on the bench? Get over the obsession.

[purplepoe]

Check. Really, what are we doing here? I am amazed that certain posters (not to mention any names) continue to rant and rave about Boller, when the guy is a second stringer who has not thrown a single pass all season. And yet he still seems to attract criticism -- for what? For how he sits on the bench? Get over the obsession.

Sorry, but Boller's name would've stayed out of most conversations this season but he has been brought up by those who feel he's gotten a raw deal.

My feelings on Boller are well documented and I've not once brought his name up this season except when a thread has been started with him as the topic.

And yes, these threads do lead to nowhere.

PP

[52RAYVENS]

For all of you that are not happy no matter what the Ravens do, WE ARE 4 & 0!
Stop your bitchen and enjoy it. No it wasn't pretty, but we won! End of story.

When I posted this thread, I was stating my opinion on the many negative members on this site. Everybody knows there is still problems with the team, but for now just enjoy the ride because you never know how long it will last.

But how the hell did it turned into a QB debate? I'll never know!

[AZRAVEN]

Part of the problem IMO is that any remotely critical comment about McNair's performance so far is automatically construed as that poster being a Boller "hugger" or "apologist". In my mind, the two are unrelated. Boller sucked, that's an established fact and frankly I doubt it will ever change no matter where he ends up. McNair is an upgrade, that's indisputable, however that doesn't mean just because we're 4-0 he's perfect. That does not mean I'm pineing for Boller's reimergence from the bench, I simply don't feel that so far McNair has been that great outside of two minute drill heroics. I would simply like to see him show a more consistant or steady performance throughout the game because I think it gives us the best chance to win.

[FHRaven]

Part of the problem IMO is that any remotely critical comment about McNair's performance so far is automatically construed as that poster being a Boller "hugger" or "apologist". In my mind, the two are unrelated. Boller sucked, that's an established fact and frankly I doubt it will ever change no matter where he ends up. McNair is an upgrade, that's indisputable, however that doesn't mean just because we're 4-0 he's perfect. That does not mean I'm pineing for Boller's reimergence from the bench, I simply don't feel that so far McNair has been that great outside of two minute drill heroics. I would simply like to see him show a more consistant or steady performance throughout the game because I think it gives us the best chance to win.

Uh-oh, AZRAVEN. You're now labelled an idiot who wants Boller to start because you made a valid critism of McNair. That is simply not allowed.

FHRaven

[AZRAVEN]

I know, it's kinda sad really..

[FadeToBlack]

It's okay to criticize McNair as long as you acknowledge the fact McNair is a far superior player to Boller.

[Greg]

It's okay to criticize McNair as long as you acknowledge the fact McNair is a far superior player to Boller.

Thanks for the permission! LOL.

I have said this endlessly. But if I make the mistake, that I apparently don't have permission to make, of stating we can see that McNair's issues behind this OL mean that Boller can't be written off because behind a good OL we would see his numbers improve just like we would McNair's.

Yes, McNair is better, but his problems thus far show that our passing problems with Boller were certainly not all of his. He had piss-poor targets for a while, and never had an OL.

Boller, 69.2 rating, 71.8 last year with Mason, Clayton and Heap
McNair, 75.4 rating here

Yes, McNair is an upgrade, but Boller isn't as bad as many think, he has not had great talent around him, particularly the OL.

[FadeToBlack]

I have said this endlessly. But if I make the mistake, that I apparently don't have permission to make, of stating we can see that McNair's issues behind this OL mean that Boller can't be written off because behind a good OL we would see his numbers improve just like we would McNair's.

I'll challenge that notion right now. McNair's issues have very little to do with the OL and very much to do with not knowing the offense.

If my theory is correct, McNair will eventually destroy Boller's production, not to mention show twice the guts of Boller in clutch situations, once McNair finally gets in his comfort zone.

[Greg]

I'll challenge that notion right now. McNair's issues have very little to do with the OL and very much to do with not knowing the offense.

No need to challenge. We will know shortly. If McNair had more time to throw the ball he would be operating at a much higher efficiency.

I am guessing you aren't claim we have a decent pass protecting OL, are you? McNair is much calmer behind this OL, and that certainly helps.

... show twice the guts of Boller in clutch situations ...

What exactly does this mean? Are you saying Boller doesn't have guts? Or that he can't win at the end of games. The guy has a few comeback wins in his pocket, one with his primary receiver being Kevin Johnson. Another with Clarence Moore.

I don't get the bashing of Boller beyond critiquing his play. Does this guy sneak out at night and beat puppies and I don't know about it? The criticism seems to go beyond his play, like in this case questioning his guts.

Most of us "huggers" will admit Boller's play was bad, with a few bright moments. I think the guy has gotten the shitty end of a few sticks here and would like to see him get a chance with good weapons and a little bit better OL.

If we are going to talk about comfort, Boller had 7-8 games with Mason and Clayton last year. His play obviously improved as his comfort level went up with them. I'll grant you McNair's play, despite the OL, will improve while his comfort with Heap and Clayton grows and he leans less on Mason. But I
challenge the notion that Boller wouldn't also benefit from this.

[AZRAVEN]

It's okay to criticize McNair as long as you acknowledge the fact McNair is a far superior player to Boller.

I don't necessarily agree with that statement. I'm judging McNair on what I've seen so far and it has absolutely nothing to do with what I've seen from Boller the past three years. If I'm discussing Boller I agree he's at best a marginally competant backup quarterback; however, that has nothing to do with what I've seen from McNair ~ which, frankly, so far has underwhelmed me. The two are not necessarily linked in my mind. I'm capable of judging each on their own merits ~ as I view them. I see no necessity to constantly compare them to each other. End results, yes, we are better off with McNair based on the current record that doesn't preclude me from seeing what I perceive as some glaring flaws in McNairs performance so far.

[FadeToBlack]

Well here's another one of my theories that I hold near and dear, and it's a theroy I've developed over watching this team play over the years.

Under pressure, Boller is half the quarterback he is while not under pressure. By the same token, McNair is maybe 15% less effective under a rush than while not under a rush, based on his ability to get rid of the ball and complete the short pass. So in short, McNair is able to adapt more to pressure situations than Boller with his footwork and hot reading abilities.

You know where I stand on McNair's production by now, it's almost all attributable to a lack of comfort in a new offense. The running game and blocking would help, but not nearly as much as McNair simply getting used to the offense.

Is pass protection important? Yes. But really, McNair is effective even without it, by getting rid of the ball to his hots, usually Mason or Clayton, or by taking off and running straight up the gut of the defense under a blitz.

I truly believe that this offensive line can pass protect as poorly as it does now and we can still win the Super Bowl, if A) they can learn to RUN block better, and B) McNair starts to get used to the offense more.

In other words, I underrate the value of the pass protection with McNair as my quarterback, but find it absolutely a NECESSITY when Boller's back there. I don't think Boller is anywhere near McNair as a starting quarterback, as McNair's statistics will improve immensely with more reps and more practice.

[Greg]

You know where I stand on McNair's production by now, it's almost all attributable to a lack of comfort in a new offense. The running game and blocking would help, but not nearly as much as McNair simply getting used to the offense.

Eh, I don't think the offense is much of an issue. The plays one teams runs are pretty much the same as another's. What they call them and how often their philosophy dictates they use them changes from team to team, but the plays are pretty much the same.

The adjustment is more to the players he is now with. He will improve as his comfort level with Clayton and Heap grows, not to mention his comfort level of how his OL blocks (what direction a blocker will take a blitzer, etc).

A 15 yard out is still a 15 yard out, but how Mason will run it as opposed to Clayton or Drew Bennett is more important.

[AZRAVEN]

[QUOTE=FadeToBlack;12213]Well here's another one of my theories that I hold near and dear, and it's a theroy I've developed over watching this team play over the years.

Gee, this sounds suspiciously like another well known poster from an unnamed site.

Yes, I'm aware of your thoughts on this topic. I believe everyone is clearly on record and why. The reality is nobody's mind is about to be changed.. well, not entirely true, my thoughts are based on performance so far and may change should McNair's performance justify it. I don't think I'm as sold on the idea that his spotty performance is just unfamiliarity with the system as many of you are but I'm willing to be convinced. As far a a super bowl appearance, it's way to early for me to even consider that possibility.

[FadeToBlack]

In re: the 15 yard out

What does change is the read progression. A WR may run the out pattern, but what players is he checking off to before and after? That's where play design does effect comfort. But i do agree there's an adjustment with players as well, as was evidenced in McNair's Favrean-like "punt" to the defense in the first half.

AZRaven, I respect the manner you defend your positions, which is why I like this site. We may bait each other from time to time, but it'll never get out of hand. I tend to give a free pass to proven MVPs, but maybe some people are more "what have you done for me lately?" We'll soon see.

[AZRAVEN]

FTB, thanks for the respect. I hope you are right, that it won't get out of hand here but as with everything else I'm taking a "wait and see" approach because we don't know who all is going to show up over here.
I don't think it's as much "what have you done for me lately" with me as I just don't understand why he seems to be having such a difficult time adjusting to our ten play playbook. It just seems to me that if he can pull the rabbit out of the hat in the last three minutes he should be able to do it earlier in the game ~ but I have never professed being an "expert" on the game, I'm just a fan who loves my team and wants them to succeed. Yes, by our record it's obvious we are succeeding but I just have concerns about how it's happening and how well we will be able to sustain our success.

[Ravens'N'Hoos]

The Washington Post actually had an interesting story about McNair and how much more clutch he is than Boller or any other Ravens QB was.

In particular, note the following:

"Last season, the Ravens were 1-10 when trailing after three quarters, and four of those losses were decided by a touchdown or less."

Steve McNair vs. Kyle Boller in the final 2:00
Boller career rating: 54.8
McNair career rating: 76.6
McNair rating in 2006: 124.8

Out of his 34 starts as a Raven, Kyle led a 4th Quarter comeback three times, once in the last 2 minutes. Obviously, Steve has done so in the last 2 weeks.

I would never say Boller never led us on a comeback - obviously he did three times - but nor should anyone equate our chances in the situations in which we found ourselves the last two weeks under McNair with how we would have done in those situations with Boller.

On another note, it was nice to see a pretty extensive Ravens story in the Post. You should check it out - the graphics are also pretty interesting. They have one that lists each Ravens QB and the comebacks he's led, and a list of the best 4th Quarter comebacks the Ravens have had along with a description of each one.

[AZRAVEN]

Interesting article rnh, but I think you could probably provide similar statistics for any of the other quarterbacks the Ravens have had, with the exception of Grbac (pre-Ravens). The guy is done as a starter in Baltimore, he is nearly done in any capacity in Baltimore and probably the NFL as a whole so I must say I can't see why it's necessary to keep beating the guy up. He wasn't the problem child that Leaf was or McNown or Marinovich orsome of the other junkyard quarterbacks who have been drafted into the NFL. Cripes, leave the kid alone and let him fade quietly into the sunset.

[Mista T]

It's okay to criticize McNair as long as you acknowledge the fact McNair is a far superior player to Boller.

It's okay to criticize McNair as long as you acknowledge the fact McNair was a far superior player to Boller. But no more, based on 5 games, which should be more than ample to pick up the Ravens playbook.

McNair used to be a to 10 NFL QB. He is now looking to be in a downward spiral, headed towards the "washed up" category. Monday night's QB performance was among the worst I've seen from a Ravens QB. A notch or two above Stoney Case vs. KC and Redman vs. St. Louis, but nothing I expected to see from a 33 year old vet former co-MVP.

The Titans knew what they were doing when they let him go. They (and McNair's agent) saw Oz as a sucker waiting to be hosed.

:nm:

btw: Let's all hope that I have been wrong, and that McNair turns things around, quickly.

[larrylater]

A notch or two above Stoney Case

Ouch!