Webb Recovery Time and Long-Term Prospects

[esmd]

Not to dig, but are you a football expert with a crystal ball? I have no idea what they are going to do with Webb or the CB position, but him tearing bothACL's on non contact plays in 2 out of 3 years may indicate he has genetic bad knees. I hope not. But, just my opinion, I hate to lose him another year and playing FS would be safer for both him and the team at this juncture. I could go either way, but one of your higher paid players is not any good to you if he is on IR or impaired.

I could simply turn that around on you and say "Are you an orthopedist?" Bottom line, Webb will be a CB.

[esmd]

The assumption that Webb will recover even quicker and more completely from this ACL compared to his last one is just that, an assumption, not one with much evidence to support it. The team should prepare for the worst case scenario: Webb will not be the same player in 2013 that he was from 2011 up to his injury, possibly ever. Domonique Foxworth blew out his ACL and was never the same player again. I don't believe it will happen with Webb but it's possible.

As for the strength on the roster of the CB position vs. the safety position, first of all you've forgotten Corey Graham, the Ravens' defensive MVP through the latter half of the season and playoffs. He's under contract for 2013 as a likely starter and is coming off of a Pro Bowl-caliber season where he filled Webb's exact role (starter who moves to the slot in the nickel set) with virtually NO drop-off. Across from him would be Jimmy Smith or Chykie Brown, likely Smith if he continues to grow, develop, and stay healthy. He produced well in the playoffs and was a 1st round pick for a reason. The loser of that battle becomes the nickel and Asa Jackson is the #4.

I'd say we have some strength and youth at CB, although we need to add a 5th corner to the roster if Webb is moved. Let's compare that to safety. Under contract in 2013 the Ravens have Bernard Pollard set at SS and at FS... uhhh... Christian Thompson? Omar Brown? Anthony Levine? 3 second-year players with about 5 NFL games and 15 NFL snaps between them. That is a DIRE positional crisis unless a very talented/high draft pick seizes the job in camp or they add a FA/re-sign Reed. So they have youth and depth there but no clear starter and virtually no NFL experience.

All else equal, CB is a stronger group in 2013 than safety BY FAR. Moving Webb to FS for a year leaves us with a very decent young, talented lineup at CB and stability at S. Obviously if the FO feels Christian Thompson, Omar Brown, or a draft pick is ready to start in 2013 at FS then that's great, but why not have a contingency plan in place? Webb holds down FS until he's healthy enough to move back to CB and/or one of the younger guys is ready to step in at the position.

You're correct in that I forgot about Graham. Doesn't change anything else that I posted, he and Smith should be in the mix to be the starter opposite Webb. You don't move an all-pro caliber CB to Safety because of fan speculation/sentiment. He came back fine from the last one, and you give him the chance to do the same here. Unless he proves that he can't go at CB, you don't move him. And let's be honest, Foxworth was an aberration. The norm nowadays is for players to come back just as good as they were pre-injury.

[Tolucaraven]

I could simply turn that around on you and say "Are you an orthopedist?" Bottom line, Webb will be a CB.

I guess my point is we as fans don't know what the Ravens will do? I'm assume they will do what is best for the player and the team. To rule out Webb being moved to S with Reed possibly leaving isn't impossible. I don't know what they will do, nor do you. Are you Ozzie Newsome or one of those internet expert tough guys wishing he was GM? We are fans, not football executives. Webb could play both positions because he is a good football player period, but cause of his injury and the possibility of losing Ed Reed, it's not an impossible scenario. They did just win a SB with no Webb also. Forums are for opinions, I respect yours but don't act like your King of the Jungle. As Buck Showalter would say "they are a lot of moving parts" I am not advocating a move to Safety or staying a CB, we just don't know what will happen. Thier is free agency coming and the draft so it is a fluid situation.

[bmorecareful]

You're correct in that I forgot about Graham. Doesn't change anything else that I posted, he and Smith should be in the mix to be the starter opposite Webb. You don't move an all-pro caliber CB to Safety because of fan speculation/sentiment. He came back fine from the last one, and you give him the chance to do the same here. Unless he proves that he can't go at CB, you don't move him. And let's be honest, Foxworth was an aberration. The norm nowadays is for players to come back just as good as they were pre-injury.

I don't know if I'd call it the "norm," and you claim Webb "came back fine from the last one," but it took him over a year. He never really looked 100% throughout all of 2010 after tearing his ACL in December 2009. Maybe he comes back faster from this one... maybe he doesn't. I just think people are too brazenly throwing caution to the wind and assuming that he'll have an Adrian Peterson-like recovery, when it's just as likely he doesn't come back 100% for a long while.

Obviously if Webb is 100% by opening day, then this whole discussion is probably moot, but the whole point of a temporary move to FS would be that the position would protect him from having to do things that he might not be ready to do AND reduce his chance of re-injury. Is Webb better as a 60% CB or 100% FS? And particularly given how miserably weak we are at FS next year and how comparatively strong at CB we are?

I think people think that Webb would somehow be hurt by moving to free safety for a year or half a year, but there is NO reason why Webb would be hurt by that. He was already being used in a semi-safety role in a lot of the nickel packages last year anyway. There's a reason why Webb plays inside in the nickel package, it's because he is better playing inside in space rather than on the boundary.

[Tolucaraven]

I don't know if I'd call it the "norm," and you claim Webb "came back fine from the last one," but it took him over a year. He never really looked 100% throughout all of 2010 after tearing his ACL in December 2009. Maybe he comes back faster from this one... maybe he doesn't. I just think people are too brazenly throwing caution to the wind and assuming that he'll have an Adrian Peterson-like recovery, when it's just as likely he doesn't come back 100% for a long while.

Obviously if Webb is 100% by opening day, then this whole discussion is probably moot, but the whole point of a temporary move to FS would be that the position would protect him from having to do things that he might not be ready to do AND reduce his chance of re-injury. Is Webb better as a 60% CB or 100% FS? And particularly given how miserably weak we are at FS next year and how comparatively strong at CB we are?

I think people think that Webb would somehow be hurt by moving to free safety for a year or half a year, but there is NO reason why Webb would be hurt by that. He was already being used in a semi-safety role in a lot of the nickel packages last year anyway. There's a reason why Webb plays inside in the nickel package, it's because he is better playing inside in space rather than on the boundary.

You are correct, I remember Webb being interviewed and said it took him his second season back from the surgery to feel 100%, plus you have to wonder if he and the Ravens want to risk a reinjury. He might be the Ravens cover corner, but that doesnt help you if he gets hurt again or is limited or back to IR. 2 knee injuries in 3 years is a concern, IMO.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

Not to dig, but are you a football expert with a crystal ball? I have no idea what they are going to do with Webb or the CB position, but him tearing bothACL's on non contact plays in 2 out of 3 years may indicate he has genetic bad knees. I hope not. But, just my opinion, I hate to lose him another year and playing FS would be safer for both him and the team at this juncture. I could go either way, but one of your higher paid players is not any good to you if he is on IR or impaired.

The first one was non-contact.

On the second one, he ran into Dez Bryant after Bryant suddenly stopped running his route with Webb trailing right behind him. It almost looked like Bryant was trying to do a double move even though Webb was already behind him, which makes no sense but that's how it looked.
Webb's knee slammed into the back of Bryant's leg while Webb's foot was planted and his leg extended.

The first one was something of a freak injury, but the second one was Bryant doing something unexpected.

[Tolucaraven]

The first one was non-contact.

On the second one, he ran into Dez Bryant after Bryant suddenly stopped running his route with Webb trailing right behind him. It almost looked like Bryant was trying to do a double move even though Webb was already behind him, which makes no sense but that's how it looked.
Webb's knee slammed into the back of Bryant's leg while Webb's foot was planted and his leg extended.

The first one was something of a freak injury, but the second one was Bryant doing something unexpected.

Yes, i saw it on replay. It was very benign contact though. Nothing outrageous. It didnt even look like his knee even buckled or anything. It was flukey looking injury. I hope he isnt a great player with lifetime injury issues that would be a shame. It's nothing like what Ngata did to RGIII or other knee injuries that you normally see.

[B-more Ravor]

If Gorrer is still bouncing around the league, he seems like a nice solution.

If Gorrer is still bouncing around the league, there's probably a reason that he's bounced from team to team since he was released by the Ravens.

[B-more Ravor]

Webb has a high salary, low bonus contract with a big roster bonus coming up soon. Does it really make sense for us to pay top 5 CB money for a player that may never be the same, and we were able to win a SB without?

He got a $10M Signing Bonus last year and is due a $5M Option Bonus this year. His 2013 and 2014 base salaries are guaranteed against injury.

Releasing him would cost them more against the Cap than he is set to count, so there's no way that he's going to be released.

Restructuring isn't going to happen either -

1. It doesn't make sense to restructure him and push greater Cap charges into future years; and/or

2. They've got no leverage to force him to consider an actual paycut - not that they would even consider trying.

Lastly, they aren't going to pay Webb that kind of money and willingly move him to Safety. They're paying him to play CB and he's going to get every opportunity to do so. So, until he proves otherwise, he's a CB.

[Sascha]

My question, understanding where you are coming from, would be how much more Gorrer has shown you, compared to Chykie Brown?

Fair question. The impression I have of Gorrer -- which is admittedly a vague one based on a small number of appearances -- is that he's a decent athlete with solid fundamentals and little flash. That makes him the kind of player who tends to be undervalued because he does his job well but doesn't have a lot of stats to show for it -- in other words, the opposite of Cary Williams this past year, when he had a surprising number of picks for someone so inconsistent in coverage. Needless to say, the Ravens FO is great at identifying such values, and I guess I'm hoping that Gorrer would represent such a value for us now. It does seem convenient since he's already familiar with our system.

[landspeed]

Well, get over it. You saw how good Chykie Brown and Corey Graham were, right? Guess what? They're both signed next year.

Furthermore, why move one of the top young corner backs in the NFL to safety? He'll be fine. He isn't the first guy to deal with multiple knee injuries. He won't be the last. Everyone keeps saying to move Webb to safety, but I'll never understand why. Part of the reason why Webb is so good is because he can play nickel effectively. So, in nickel sets - if he is a safety - what are the Ravens supposed to do? Drop him down to nickel and put someone else in at safety? No.

IMO, the only person in the corner unit who might be a decent candidate to drop back to free safety is Jimmy Smith.

chykie brown... good? lol

[wickedsolo]

chykie brown... good? lol

Yes.

Chykie Brown played pretty well the last half of the season. Better than most of us expected.

Perhaps your definition of good is Darrelle Revis or nothing, but for me when I see a corner sticking with his man and not allowing a receiver to adjust and make a reception, that is playing pretty well.

Even with Chykie Brown on the field, Cary Williams was still the corner being picked on.

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[wickedsolo]

Fair question. The impression I have of Gorrer -- which is admittedly a vague one based on a small number of appearances -- is that he's a decent athlete with solid fundamentals and little flash. That makes him the kind of player who tends to be undervalued because he does his job well but doesn't have a lot of stats to show for it -- in other words, the opposite of Cary Williams this past year, when he had a surprising number of picks for someone so inconsistent in coverage. Needless to say, the Ravens FO is great at identifying such values, and I guess I'm hoping that Gorrer would represent such a value for us now. It does seem convenient since he's already familiar with our system.

Gorrer had like one or two good plays against the Jets two years ago.

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[wickedsolo]

If Gorrer is still bouncing around the league, there's probably a reason that he's bounced from team to team since he was released by the Ravens.

Shhhh...



Gorrer = Darrelle Revis.

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[RavenScallywag]

A RSR blogger had a grading of our DBs in 2012, so let's look at his writeup for Mr Brown...

Chykie Brown

2012 Role: Nickel CB (409 snaps, 29%). Chykie was used as an outside corner in the nickel and saw defensive action in 12 of 20 games. Following the injury to Jimmy Smith, he was used extensively, but not without interruption. He lost his nickel role twice with the acquisition of Chris Johnson and return of Jimmy Smith.

What was there to like about his season? For the season, he allowed just 1 TD in 277 drop backs played.

When did he play best? He had 3 PDs against the Giants in week 16 to help the Ravens seal the AFC North.

When did he play poorly? He didn’t play well through the playoffs, accumulating 4 penalties and 3 missed tackles in 4 games (3 as a corner). He messed up the coverage on Welker signaled by Graham during the AFCC to allow the Pats their only TD. He was replaced in the nickel by Jimmy Smith for the Super Bowl.

What was his signature play of 2012? His PD in the divisional game at Denver floated into the hands of Corey Graham who returned it 39 yards to put the Ravens up 14-7. Amazingly, that interception was not even Graham’s signature play of the game.
What does he need to do better? He needs to be a more consistent tackler, particularly on special teams where he missed 4 while making 11. That included a miss on Holliday’s kickoff return TD in the divisional game at Denver. He had 3 penalties on special teams as well including running into Akers in the Super Bowl which gave the 49ers another shot at 3 points after a miss.

Grades: Play D+, Value C, Developmental C+, Brown was a 5th-round draft pick in his 2nd season. His first opportunity against live fire was better than the replacement level, but not good enough to keep his job secure. There were enough highlights to believe he can contribute at a higher level in the future. His special teams contribution is factored in his grade above. Most teams would love to have a young, 5th corner of Chykie’s current ability and upside. At present, your team would be in trouble if he was 3rd on your depth chart.

So, let's just look at the grading. His play this year, overall, was just below average. BUT, with this only being his 2nd year, there's hope that he can be coached up a bit better. I would imagine, if you put Gorrer into the same system, he would come away with similar grades. Gorrer was cut by the Ravens....meaning when it came time to form a roster, the team felt someone else was more deserving of a roster spot. Included in those someones was Chykie Brown.

[JAB1985]

I think Gorrer had potential but I dont think they made a mistake in releasing him and quite frankly with 11 picks im assuming we pick up a similar player in this draft late.

Ive pretty much ignored the Webb to safety talk in the past. I still dont think its likely or even remotely our best option. that said, terrell thomas (the man with 3 ACL tears) was talking about moving to safety as if its an option for the Giants as well, adding "Ill play kicker if it gets me on the field". Thomas was on track as being a top flight CB as well but is coming to terms with the fact that his knees may not let him. Like I said I dont think its likely, but im not just throwing it out the window immediately like i was. Frankly we have better options on this roster to move if we have a hole. Really depends on what happens in his recovery this time and if hes able to get back his speed and reaction. if another injury occurs, is that when its time to start considering it or is it just cut bait entirely at that point?

[B-more Ravor]

FWIW, Gorrer is a ERFA with Tampa, so his services are totally under their control. Short of them non-tendering him, he's going to remain that way until at least cutdowns in August.

[bmorecareful]

Something that concerns me greatly that I feel others are not accounting for is our personnel situation in the secondary as a whole. I get that people don't want to even consider moving Webb and part of the argument for that is our supposed weakness at the CB position. But Corey Graham played Webb's role in 2012 at about 80% of what Webb did in 2011 when he was one of the best corners in all of football. He is under contract for 2013 and is one of the key players on our defense. Jimmy Smith is a first round pick who has immense talent and looked to be putting it together to an extent during the playoff run--he is GOING to be given a chance to grab a starting job in camp. Chykie Brown has upside to improve and even if he wasn't an ideal #3 last year, I think he can challenge for and win that job in 2013. Asa Jackson is a good developmental backup, and there are plenty of late-round options in the draft to round out the 5th spot on the depth chart. Without Webb, we don't look too bad in 2013.

Contrast that to free safety... a position Ed Reed locked down for a decade. A position around which the ENTIRE DEFENSE was built... allowing Ed to roam free on the back end and use his instincts and range to make plays. Ed is fading fast and might not be back next year. We have NOTHING behind him on the depth chart other than Omar Brown (UDFA) and Christian Thompson, who is one of the rawest players on the team and was likely a 3-4 year project when he was drafted out of South Carolina State (he's also more of a strong safety prospect IMO.)

How in the world are we all not freaking out over the free safety position? That is the ONLY position on the team where we literally do not have an NFL caliber player signed for 2013. Even at ILB, we have Jameel McClain, Josh Bynes, Albert McClellan, and Brendon Ayanbadejo... all of whom have made multiple NFL starts. At OT we have Michael Oher, Jah Reid, etc. At NT we have Cody and Ngata. So even compared to all of our other needs, FS is BY FAR the most concerning. Webb would solve that in 2013 while we groom whoever is Ed Reed's long-term replacement.

[pslholder96]

Something that concerns me greatly that I feel others are not accounting for is our personnel situation in the secondary as a whole. I get that people don't want to even consider moving Webb and part of the argument for that is our supposed weakness at the CB position. But Corey Graham played Webb's role in 2012 at about 80% of what Webb did in 2011 when he was one of the best corners in all of football. He is under contract for 2013 and is one of the key players on our defense. Jimmy Smith is a first round pick who has immense talent and looked to be putting it together to an extent during the playoff run--he is GOING to be given a chance to grab a starting job in camp. Chykie Brown has upside to improve and even if he wasn't an ideal #3 last year, I think he can challenge for and win that job in 2013. Asa Jackson is a good developmental backup, and there are plenty of late-round options in the draft to round out the 5th spot on the depth chart. Without Webb, we don't look too bad in 2013.

Contrast that to free safety... a position Ed Reed locked down for a decade. A position around which the ENTIRE DEFENSE was built... allowing Ed to roam free on the back end and use his instincts and range to make plays. Ed is fading fast and might not be back next year. We have NOTHING behind him on the depth chart other than Omar Brown (UDFA) and Christian Thompson, who is one of the rawest players on the team and was likely a 3-4 year project when he was drafted out of South Carolina State (he's also more of a strong safety prospect IMO.)

How in the world are we all not freaking out over the free safety position? That is the ONLY position on the team where we literally do not have an NFL caliber player signed for 2013. Even at ILB, we have Jameel McClain, Josh Bynes, Albert McClellan, and Brendon Ayanbadejo... all of whom have made multiple NFL starts. At OT we have Michael Oher, Jah Reid, etc. At NT we have Cody and Ngata. So even compared to all of our other needs, FS is BY FAR the most concerning. Webb would solve that in 2013 while we groom whoever is Ed Reed's long-term replacement.

Ozzie mentioned at the Ravens year end press conference that the draft will focus on the middle of the defense and that includes safeties. Maybe down the road moving Webb to free safety makes a little more sense but definately not next year. I'm not sure if I want my best corner coming off his second ACL injury having to adjust to playing a new position. And yes I'm aware that was his position in college but that was 4 years ago. We need him to focus on getting into football shape and regaining the confidence in both of his knees without having to worry about the demands of playing free safety.

[wickedsolo]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Emmanuel Cook re-signed as well. The coaching staff is really high on him and, IMO, he would have started over anyone else in Ed Reed's absence.

I'm not saying he could be a good starter, but he certainly has the speed to be a decent centerfielder.

FS is definitely an area of concern.

I'd also like to point out that Christian Thompson was an outside linebacker at Auburn before transferring to SC State.