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Thread: 1984...?

  1. #13
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    Re: 1984...?



    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    A bit OT, but didnt you give me some flack last year when I posted some stuff about Obama's secret drone war?
    Perhaps. But I'd like to see the context. IIRC, it was in connection with using drones to catch a drug kingpin or something.
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  2. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post

    Perhaps. But I'd like to see the context. IIRC, it was in connection with using drones to catch a drug kingpin or something.
    No, it was basically drone strikes in foreign countries (Yemen, IIRC) that we werent even really engaged with. The issue, as I recall, was basically committing acts of war against other countries without the approval of Congress.

    Wrong or right, there is a process that just doesnt seem to get followed.

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  3. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dade View Post
    It's a slippery slope we're on. While I agree that better and new technology needs to be used to track down criminals, this is blurring the line of civil liberties.

    Like the comic says "Who watches the watchmen?"
    Absolutely.

    A lot of these programs are ridiculously classified too, so it isnt like anything could actually be proven IF civil liberties are being violated.

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  4. #16
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    Re: 1984...?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    No, it was basically drone strikes in foreign countries (Yemen, IIRC) that we werent even really engaged with. The issue, as I recall, was basically committing acts of war against other countries without the approval of Congress.

    Wrong or right, there is a process that just doesnt seem to get followed.
    I think debate changes when it's on foreign soil. An unarmed drone flew above UBL's compound the days leading up to his whacking. I am totally OK with that. And just as I'd be fine with a smart bomb being used to take out a terrorist riding down the road in some middle eastern city, ally or not. The War Powers Act and other corresponding acts of Congress gives the President (going all the way back to Kennedy) the power with limited military action sans Congressional approval.

    Now using a drone to take someone out overseas may be a huge diplomatic debacle, but that's another debate.

    When it's our own government, targeting US citizens, it's a completely different ball of wax. Even the biggest crook scum bag in the US deserves due process. That's guaranteed in the Constitution. The prospect of the Executive branch being judge, jury and possibly executioner of US citizens is incredibly chilling and totally unacceptable.
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  5. #17
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    Re: 1984...?

    Everyone should check out Rand Paul filibustering and talking about NDAA, he may touch on drones too.

    Good stuff.

    http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN2/
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  6. #18
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    Re: 1984...?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Absolutely.

    A lot of these programs are ridiculously classified too, so it isnt like anything could actually be proven IF civil liberties are being violated.

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    I'd think detecting if I have a gun as I am walking down the street with no other reason than you can, would likely violate the 4th amendment, if only a little.
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  7. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post

    I'd think detecting if I have a gun as I am walking down the street with no other reason than you can, would likely violate the 4th amendment, if only a little.
    How do you prove that they are though?

    If they're targeting us gun owners, do you honestly believe that information would be made available to the public?

    This is similar to folks claiming the NSA monitors all of our cell phone conversations. Could they? Sure. The technology exists for them to easily do that. Are they? According to them and every other politician, nope and good luck proving otherwise.

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  8. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post

    I think debate changes when it's on foreign soil. An unarmed drone flew above UBL's compound the days leading up to his whacking. I am totally OK with that. And just as I'd be fine with a smart bomb being used to take out a terrorist riding down the road in some middle eastern city, ally or not. The War Powers Act and other corresponding acts of Congress gives the President (going all the way back to Kennedy) the power with limited military action sans Congressional approval.

    Now using a drone to take someone out overseas may be a huge diplomatic debacle, but that's another debate.

    When it's our own government, targeting US citizens, it's a completely different ball of wax. Even the biggest crook scum bag in the US deserves due process. That's guaranteed in the Constitution. The prospect of the Executive branch being judge, jury and possibly executioner of US citizens is incredibly chilling and totally unacceptable.
    I guess it depends on one's interpretation of "limited" military action.

    And I agree that the constitution is becoming a meaningless piece of paper with certain aspects.

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  9. #21
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    Re: 1984...?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    How do you prove that they are though?

    If they're targeting us gun owners, do you honestly believe that information would be made available to the public?

    This is similar to folks claiming the NSA monitors all of our cell phone conversations. Could they? Sure. The technology exists for them to easily do that. Are they? According to them and every other politician, nope and good luck proving otherwise.

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    I didn't say you could.

    I would guess you couldn't prove it until someone walks up and says we need to see your gun. WTF! How did you know I have one?
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  10. #22
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    Re: 1984...?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    How do you prove that they are though?

    If they're targeting us gun owners, do you honestly believe that information would be made available to the public?

    This is similar to folks claiming the NSA monitors all of our cell phone conversations. Could they? Sure. The technology exists for them to easily do that. Are they? According to them and every other politician, nope and good luck proving otherwise.
    In both cases, it will come down to the outcome.

    If some random Joe at NSA listens to our phone calls, you're right, you wont know it.

    But if some drone sees me with my concealed Glock and then all of a sudden Houston's finest is pulling me aside, asking me about my weapon, I'll know. Thankfully, Texas passed a law banning drones for domestic law enforcement use.
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  11. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post

    I didn't say you could.

    I would guess you couldn't prove it until someone walks up and says we need to see your gun. WTF! How did you know I have one?
    Even then, they could say they pulled your state registration for ccw and compared it with you driver's license.

    To me, this is the most depressing aspect of all of these things.

    Even if the public wanted to do something, what could they "legally" do?

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  12. #24
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    Re: 1984...?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Even then, they could say they pulled your state registration for ccw and compared it with you driver's license.

    To me, this is the most depressing aspect of all of these things.

    Even if the public wanted to do something, what could they "legally" do?

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    Okay, we're getting pretty hypothetical, but if someone comes up to me and asked me to see my weapon - For what reason?
    Last edited by NCRAVEN; 03-06-2013 at 01:50 PM. Reason: TYPO -
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