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  1. #25

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?



    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    The players band together and agree to take lower value contracts to win a championship. That is all I was implying.

    Again, it is not often you see 2 of the top FA pass rushers sign for $20M total.

    Kruger alone got $20M in guarantees.
    That's not in any way colluding.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.





  2. #26

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    That's not in any way colluding.
    Yes it is. It is a form of price fixing.

    Don't worry about it, I know my fears are irrational.

    It was just shocking to see 2 of the top FA pass rushers sign for what I thought was dirt cheap, to a team written in as the paper SB champs for 2013 (before the additions of Avril and Bennett).




  3. #27

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    Brady took a massive discount; does that count as collusion too?

    Strange.
    Brady didn't take a discount, and I'm so tired of hearing this talk. That's a scam. The dude will be getting paid between 12-15 million a year, GUARANTEED until he is 40! Joe Flacco took a discount. YOu know why, because the way his contract is constructed, cap friendly up front, and beyond inflated on the back, means there will be no way in hell he realizes years 4-6 of that contract, and a restructure will be necessary to keep him.

    Basically if Tom Brady took a "market value" contract, he'd have it backloaded, like most do, and he'd be approaching 40 when his big paydays are expected to hit, at which point Brady would be like Manning last year, but potentially a shit out of luck if he is seriously injured and can't play anymore. GuaRANTEED money is the only important thing in contracts. Joe's contract, after common sense and taxes is taken into equation, will come to 30 million if he's lucky.
    "Sorry officer, nothing wrong here. I'm just watching the Ravens game!"




  4. #28

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    The players band together and agree to take lower value contracts to win a championship. That is all I was implying.

    Again, it is not often you see 2 of the top FA pass rushers sign for $20M total.

    Kruger alone got $20M in guarantees.
    It's called "Lebron'ing"...
    "Sorry officer, nothing wrong here. I'm just watching the Ravens game!"




  5. #29

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Yes it is. It is a form of price fixing.

    Don't worry about it, I know my fears are irrational.

    It was just shocking to see 2 of the top FA pass rushers sign for what I thought was dirt cheap, to a team written in as the paper SB champs for 2013 (before the additions of Avril and Bennett).
    How is it price fixing when the players voluntarily took less money? Sometimes the money isn't there. Bennett in particular only had one productive season.

    And if all the owners/GM's were in on this, how does this have anything to do with Carroll being shady?
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  6. #30

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    How is it price fixing when the players voluntarily took less money?
    because they voluntarily took less money. They fixed their price...low. Of course this assumes they turned down a higher offer, which is an unknown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    And if all the owners/GM's were in on this, how does this have anything to do with Carroll being shady?
    My point was Carroll is shady and this seems shady.

    Shady people conduct shady business.

    But like I said, don't worry about it.

    I realize it is a whacky proposition.

    Though I still am a bit shocked that those 2 players were obtained for what they were.




  7. #31

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Perhaps I was looking at collusion from the wrong side of the fence. Either way, at least I am not the only one that felt weirdness going on:

    Aaron Wilson Twitter:
    Lot of agents using C word, collusion, when discussing free agency patterns and trends. Very tough to prove, and it's a buyers' market
    I also think the rookie wage scale is having a big impact and it is too soon to define a clear pattern. We know rookies are now dirt cheap. We know premier players will get paid huge still. But is the the middle-tier and veteran guys that are really getting squeezed these days.




  8. #32

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Well now we know why Bennett was so cheap.

    He has a torn rotator cuff.




  9. #33
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Yes it is. It is a form of price fixing.

    Don't worry about it, I know my fears are irrational.

    It was just shocking to see 2 of the top FA pass rushers sign for what I thought was dirt cheap, to a team written in as the paper SB champs for 2013 (before the additions of Avril and Bennett).
    I understand what you're saying, but collusion has an actual meaning (and is a very big accusation), and this is not, in fact collusion. More to the point, there's nothing illegal about players "colluding" like there is in teams doing it.




  10. #34

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brien Jackson View Post
    I understand what you're saying, but collusion has an actual meaning (and is a very big accusation), and this is not, in fact collusion. More to the point, there's nothing illegal about players "colluding" like there is in teams doing it.
    I now think the collusion is on the owner's behalf. So perhaps my initial suspicion re: players was off, but the general suspicion I think was accurate. Screwy things are happening.

    And this is backed by agents right now. I recently had a current agent speak at my school. The players got completely screwed. Just look at the contracts we are seeing.

    But here is the interesting macro view. The NFL is worried about "player safety" only because of potential lawsuits. However, we all know they want more offense and less defense. Look at all of the rules in the past few years protecting QBs and WRs.

    Look at what happened this year in free agency. The only players that got $10M/year on average were either WRs or QBs.

    A few years ago DEs and CBs were getting top dollar. Now their market is depressed.

    They are devaluing positions that hurt points being scored. They want the league to be point point points, because supposedly that is what sells. Fantasy football in real life.

    Even crappy backup QBs are getting better contracts than established DEF players. Who is setting these contract ceilings? Dumervil went from making $12M to $8M to averaging $5.5M. Huh???

    Look at why Dal and Wash got punished for their salary cap issues in the uncapped year. They frontloaded contracts (e.g. big $$ up front - aka expensive business).The league - aka the owners - want(ed) the salary cap low so they can continue to fake their "hardships" and teams not being profitable. The same excuses they used during the lock out. Dal and Wash are being punished because they didn't fall in line with the rest of the owners. aka they didn't collude.

    So what do we have this year? A relatively flat salary cap, a huge veteran purge (the middle class dropped out re: contract value(s)), veterans getting horrible contracts for little money. But QBs and WRs getting paid still (see Flacco, Mike Wallace, Bowe, etc.).

    What a coincidence that the two positions that score points and make those long incredible passes/catches are getting all the $$, while LBs, etc. are getting scraps.

    You can think I am off my rocker but this stuff is really being talked about by agents in the industry.
    Last edited by bt12483; 03-29-2013 at 02:56 PM.




  11. #35

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    They are devaluing positions that hurt points being scored. They want the league to be point point points, because supposedly that is what sells.
    Right, that's why the Browns are paying $8 million a year for a pass rusher who's proved himself over an entire half-season.

    How is it that you don't understand that the cap is a negotiated % of revenue? And that the league actually put rules in place to force teams to spend a large % of the cap, so cheapskates like Mike Brown couldn't just pocket his cut of the shared revenue?

    I don't think you're off your rocker; I think you don't have the slightest understanding of the salary cap or NFL contracts in general.
    I've upped my standards. Up yours.




  12. #36

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    Right, that's why the Browns are paying $8 million a year for a pass rusher who's proved himself over an entire half-season.
    Yeah. And look up what guys like Jared Allen were getting before the Goodell regime came into power. Look at what Suggs got. These guys were clearing $10M up to $12M.

    Now Kruger isn't at their level, and certain stars will always get paid. But in general the market is HIGHLY depressed.

    Cliff Avril is a young pass rusher in his prime that has almost averaged double digit sacks the past few years. He got 2 years at $7.5M. That doesn't seem strange? You think he would have gotten that 3 years ago? hell he had a better offer just last year form the Lions.

    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    How is it that you don't understand that the cap is a negotiated % of revenue? And that the league actually put rules in place to force teams to spend a large % of the cap, so cheapskates like Mike Brown couldn't just pocket his cut of the shared revenue?

    I don't think you're off your rocker; I think you don't have the slightest understanding of the salary cap or NFL contracts in general.
    Dude what I just posted was pretty much verbatim out of the mouth of Tony Agnone. He has been an agent for fucking 30 years.

    Look him up.

    Did you read post 31? From Aaron Wilson:
    "Lot of agents using C word, collusion, when discussing free agency patterns and trends. Very tough to prove, and it's a buyers' market"

    How do you think Aaron Wilson breaks all of the new he breaks? Telepathy? No. He has contacts.

    Boy it is funny the same thing Aaron Wilson posted about collusion being discussed amongst agents is the same thing Tony Agnone was talking about in my class.

    Perhaps you can tell us what current agents are thinking about the current free agent market and results of the recently bargained CBA.

    From PFT a few days ago:
    "Eric Winston thinks it’s “a weird year” to be a free agent...Winston is one of the many free agents finding this offseason that enormous contracts just aren’t on the table."

    Gee I wonder what is "weird" about the market?

    Gee I wonder why in May 2012 the NFLPA filed a suit alleging owner collusion and “imposing a secret $123 million per-Club salary cap for that uncapped 2010 season.”
    https://www.nflplayers.com/Articles/...st-NFL-Owners/

    Boy that $123M sounds REALLY FAMILIAR!! It just happens to be this year's cap!!
    Last edited by bt12483; 03-29-2013 at 02:55 PM.




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