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  1. #37

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?



    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    The players band together and agree to take lower value contracts to win a championship. That is all I was implying.

    Again, it is not often you see 2 of the top FA pass rushers sign for $20M total.

    Kruger alone got $20M in guarantees.
    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Yes it is. It is a form of price fixing.

    It was just shocking to see 2 of the top FA pass rushers sign for what I thought was dirt cheap, to a team written in as the paper SB champs for 2013 (before the additions of Avril and Bennett).
    Wtf, players take less money to make a run at a championship literally all the time. There is an article on BR.com right now talking about how Dumervil and Huff both left money on the table because they felt the Ravens gave them the best shot at winning. You could play for the vet minimum for a shot at the SB if thats what you wanted.




  2. #38

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by NjRavensFan View Post
    Wtf, players take less money to make a run at a championship literally all the time. There is an article on BR.com right now talking about how Dumervil and Huff both left money on the table because they felt the Ravens gave them the best shot at winning. You could play for the vet minimum for a shot at the SB if thats what you wanted.
    Post 34 above:
    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    I now think the collusion is on the owner's behalf. So perhaps my initial suspicion re: players was off, but the general suspicion I think was accurate. Screwy things are happening.
    Someone please offer a counter theory as to why veterans are now getting paid table scraps.




  3. #39

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Gee I wonder why in May 2012 the NFLPA filed a suit alleging owner collusion and “imposing a secret $123 million per-Club salary cap for that uncapped 2010 season.”
    https://www.nflplayers.com/Articles/...st-NFL-Owners/

    Boy that $123M sounds REALLY FAMILIAR!! It just happens to be this year's cap!!
    The players may be able to make the argument that the owners colluded in 2010. But we're not talking about 2010 here. We're talking about this year, i.e. a year with a cap.

    What's "weird" about this year, and about future years until there's a significant increase in the cap, is all of those excessive contracts from previous years (e.g. $12 million for Jared Allen) hitting the fat part of their salary curve, and teams leaning on players to renegotiate or be cut; and a cut hits the team with a dead money albatross, further reducing what they can spend on new contracts (just ask Elway).

    I am shocked, shocked to hear that agents are talking about the possibility that the owners are colluding.
    I've upped my standards. Up yours.




  4. #40

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    The players may be able to make the argument that the owners colluded in 2010. But we're not talking about 2010 here. We're talking about this year, i.e. a year with a cap.
    Right because when the owner's sit down to talk I am sure they only think a few seasons down the line. Not long term. Pretty amazing how in 2010 they were supposedly operating under a secret $123M cap and lo and behold in 2013 the cap is...$123M.

    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    What's "weird" about this year, and about future years until there's a significant increase in the cap, is all of those excessive contracts from previous years (e.g. $12 million for Jared Allen) hitting the fat part of their salary curve, and teams leaning on players to renegotiate or be cut; and a cut hits the team with a dead money albatross, further reducing what they can spend on new contracts (just ask Elway).
    Tell me the last time you've ever seen the free agent market like this. Nothing looks fishy to you? Not a single defensive player got a contract that averaged over $10M if I am not mistaken.

    The only players making $ are on offense, and almost exclusively QB and WR. And the guys that protect the QB. Even running backs are worthless. They are no longer drafted much in rd 1 and the veterans are signing rock bottom deals. Passing league, because passing = ratings = money. All other positions getting screwed. QBs and WRs get the $, rookies on scale, veteran's dumpster diving.

    Quote Originally Posted by moose10101 View Post
    I am shocked, shocked to hear that agents are talking about the possibility that the owners are colluding.
    Just about as shocked as the potential of owner's colluding.

    The owners just railroaded the players for 10 years.




  5. #41
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    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Post 34 above:


    Someone please offer a counter theory as to why veterans are now getting paid table scraps.
    Because many teams have front loaded previous deals expecting a cap increase which is yet to come and thus are close to the cap. Others ie the five or so with about 20 mil left are cheapskates and will eventually have to spend that to reach the cap floor




  6. #42

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Yeah. And look up what guys like Jared Allen were getting before the Goodell regime came into power. Look at what Suggs got. These guys were clearing $10M up to $12M.

    Now Kruger isn't at their level, and certain stars will always get paid. But in general the market is HIGHLY depressed.

    Cliff Avril is a young pass rusher in his prime that has almost averaged double digit sacks the past few years. He got 2 years at $7.5M. That doesn't seem strange? You think he would have gotten that 3 years ago? hell he had a better offer just last year form the Lions.



    Dude what I just posted was pretty much verbatim out of the mouth of Tony Agnone. He has been an agent for fucking 30 years.

    Look him up.

    Did you read post 31? From Aaron Wilson:
    "Lot of agents using C word, collusion, when discussing free agency patterns and trends. Very tough to prove, and it's a buyers' market"

    How do you think Aaron Wilson breaks all of the new he breaks? Telepathy? No. He has contacts.

    Boy it is funny the same thing Aaron Wilson posted about collusion being discussed amongst agents is the same thing Tony Agnone was talking about in my class.

    Perhaps you can tell us what current agents are thinking about the current free agent market and results of the recently bargained CBA.

    From PFT a few days ago:
    "Eric Winston thinks it’s “a weird year” to be a free agent...Winston is one of the many free agents finding this offseason that enormous contracts just aren’t on the table."

    Gee I wonder what is "weird" about the market?

    Gee I wonder why in May 2012 the NFLPA filed a suit alleging owner collusion and “imposing a secret $123 million per-Club salary cap for that uncapped 2010 season.”
    https://www.nflplayers.com/Articles/...st-NFL-Owners/

    Boy that $123M sounds REALLY FAMILIAR!! It just happens to be this year's cap!!
    The owners are required to spend a minimum of the salary cap each year. How they spend it is completely up to the owners. It is not collusion that you are not seeing big contracts because you are. Teams are just spending it on different players. Joe Flacco just signed a 6 year 120m contract. Record amount for a QB. That is going to be beaten by Rogers and Ryan. Last year Cliff Avril had a long term big dollar contract offer on the table from the Lions. He decided to roll the dice like Joe did. Avril had a down year. He only had 9.5 sacks. He decided to signed a two year deal with Seattle in hopes of boosting his value to make a run at a long term deal. Avril has never been to a pro bowl and should never have turned down 3 year 30m from Lions.

    Mike Wallace signed a big dollar deal and he was not a top 5 wr. 13m per for wallace is big. Ellerbe who has barely been able to stay on the field signed for 5 yr 35m.

    Teams are starting to mimic the better teams that show constraint in free agency. They are not signing veterans to long term big dollar deals because of the future cap implications.

    With the current agreement their is no way that collusion can take place amongst the owners as they have a floor. As long as they are above the floor they are meeting the requirements of the collective bargaining agreement. Agents may not like that the owners are being more responsible in how they allocate their cap but it is not collusion. The agents complaining are probably the ones representing the big name vets that are not getting big dollar contracts.

    The NFLPA was right that the owners colluded during the uncapped year. They colluded to keep payrolls low so that it would be advantageous in the negotiations. Part of the agreement was that the NFLPA would sign off on right to sue the NFL over collusion which is why their case was tossed out.

    Just because they are not happy with how the teams are spending to the requirement does not make it collusion. This sounds like sour grapes from the agents. They should direct their attacks at De Smith who negotiated a horrendous deal. Are you aware that the cap is lower or flat to where it was prior to the new agreement?




  7. #43

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Post 34 above:

    Someone please offer a counter theory as to why veterans are now getting paid table scraps.

    Because it's a young man's game. If you aren't in or coming off a rookie contract, you are old. If you are old, there aren't premium dollars available.

    But that said, Ed Reed got PREMIUM dollars for who he is and where he is in his career. Kruger and Ellerbe BOTH prove that LBers are still getting overpaid. Ellerbe got a HEFTY raise over what Tlloch, Lofton and any of the other ILBers got last year, why? Supply and demand. Last year there was a TON of ILBers available, so they went cheap. This year, he was the only young, promising guy. Guess what position is FLOODED this year, PASSRUSHER. Kruger got the premium deal becuase he was youngest, and the rest are getting lowballed comparatively.

    Supply and Demand.




  8. #44

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by srobert96 View Post
    The owners are required to spend a minimum of the salary cap each year. How they spend it is completely up to the owners. It is not collusion that you are not seeing big contracts because you are. Teams are just spending it on different players. Joe Flacco just signed a 6 year 120m contract. Record amount for a QB. That is going to be beaten by Rogers and Ryan. Last year Cliff Avril had a long term big dollar contract offer on the table from the Lions. He decided to roll the dice like Joe did. Avril had a down year. He only had 9.5 sacks. He decided to signed a two year deal with Seattle in hopes of boosting his value to make a run at a long term deal. Avril has never been to a pro bowl and should never have turned down 3 year 30m from Lions.

    Mike Wallace signed a big dollar deal and he was not a top 5 wr. 13m per for wallace is big. Ellerbe who has barely been able to stay on the field signed for 5 yr 35m.

    Teams are starting to mimic the better teams that show constraint in free agency. They are not signing veterans to long term big dollar deals because of the future cap implications.

    With the current agreement their is no way that collusion can take place amongst the owners as they have a floor. As long as they are above the floor they are meeting the requirements of the collective bargaining agreement. Agents may not like that the owners are being more responsible in how they allocate their cap but it is not collusion. The agents complaining are probably the ones representing the big name vets that are not getting big dollar contracts.

    The NFLPA was right that the owners colluded during the uncapped year. They colluded to keep payrolls low so that it would be advantageous in the negotiations. Part of the agreement was that the NFLPA would sign off on right to sue the NFL over collusion which is why their case was tossed out.

    Just because they are not happy with how the teams are spending to the requirement does not make it collusion. This sounds like sour grapes from the agents. They should direct their attacks at De Smith who negotiated a horrendous deal. Are you aware that the cap is lower or flat to where it was prior to the new agreement?
    Thanks for backing up my premise. The owners are setting contracts low on anyone who isn't a QB or WR, because points = ratings = money.

    Funny how when it comes to paying QB and WR they aren't so worried about spending. Yet DE and CBs can't seem to get the same $$ they used to because money is tight under the cap.

    They are overvaluing the QB and WR spots because they are shifting the game to more points aka fantasy football.

    Again if someone else has a better reason for why defensive players are no longer seeing the $ they used too please offer it up.

    Meanwhile the Cowboys just extended a veteran 32 year old QB for $108M but a 27 year old LB (Dan Connor) making like $3M gets asked to take a paycut and is eventually cut because "money is tight". Riiiight.....
    Last edited by bt12483; 03-29-2013 at 03:27 PM.




  9. #45

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Because it's a young man's game. If you aren't in or coming off a rookie contract, you are old. If you are old, there aren't premium dollars available.

    But that said, Ed Reed got PREMIUM dollars for who he is and where he is in his career. Kruger and Ellerbe BOTH prove that LBers are still getting overpaid. Ellerbe got a HEFTY raise over what Tlloch, Lofton and any of the other ILBers got last year, why? Supply and demand. Last year there was a TON of ILBers available, so they went cheap. This year, he was the only young, promising guy. Guess what position is FLOODED this year, PASSRUSHER. Kruger got the premium deal becuase he was youngest, and the rest are getting lowballed comparatively.

    Supply and Demand.
    So if the same pattern continues next year? A depressed free agent market except for QB's and WR's getting paid.

    Still nothing fishy?

    Seems like there isn't $1 for defensive players yet when a QB needs $$ somehow they find $100M. Weird...




  10. #46

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    So if the same pattern continues next year? A depressed free agent market except for QB's and WR's getting paid.

    Still nothing fishy?
    what is "fishy" about the owners paying the players that make them money? LIike you said points= ratings= $$$.... think abotu that for a second. That's what they SHOULD be doing... paying the guys that pay them....




  11. #47

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    what is "fishy" about the owners paying the players that make them money? LIike you said points= ratings= $$$.... think abotu that for a second. That's what they SHOULD be doing... paying the guys that pay them....
    The fishy thing is it is much more skewed than the NFL pre 2011 CBA.

    You guys can believe what you want.

    I am just telling you what I've heard agents and NFLPA people saying, which is also what Aaron Wilson is hearing.




  12. #48

    Re: Player collusion in Seattle?

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Thanks for backing up my premise. The owners are setting contracts low on anyone who isn't a QB or WR, because points = ratings = money.
    A change in strategy based on changes in the rules isn't "collusion". Everybody thinking the same way isn't "collusion".

    You keep bouncing back and forth between "the sellers are colluding" and "the league is emphasizing offense". At this point, I'm not even sure what your point is.
    I've upped my standards. Up yours.




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