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  1. #133

    Re: Rumor: Harbs wanted Reed gone



    Quote Originally Posted by veritas View Post
    Perhaps but what cannot be disputed is that this is clearly Harbaugh's team now. There's no Ray, no Ed, no Boldin, no Pollard. About the only vets left are Suggs, Ngata and Flacco he won't get any grief from them. So, 2013 will be a real test as to what Harbaugh can do when he and not Ray Lewis or Ed Reed or Boldin, will have to be the inspirational leader.
    I have to laugh at the whole "its Harbaugh's team now" philosophy.

    So basically its only the head coaches team if everyone who was a team leader when they arrived is gone? Really? Last time I checked when the Ravens floundered some under Brian Billick they fired Brian not Ed, not Ray and not anyone else. If the Ravens had gone 2-14 last year this would have been Harbaugh's team, his fault and his job.

    This has been Harbaugh's team since day 1. The Ravens are not an organization that is going to allow the inmates to run the farm. Hell that's the whole reason Harbaugh was on the sidelines and one Rex Ryan was not.
    A linebacker's job is to knock out running backs, to knock out receivers, to chase the football,
    -Ray Lewis




  2. #134

    Re: Rumor: Harbs wanted Reed gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenous1 View Post
    I have to laugh at the whole "its Harbaugh's team now" philosophy.

    So basically its only the head coaches team if everyone who was a team leader when they arrived is gone? Really? Last time I checked when the Ravens floundered some under Brian Billick they fired Brian not Ed, not Ray and not anyone else. If the Ravens had gone 2-14 last year this would have been Harbaugh's team, his fault and his job.

    This has been Harbaugh's team since day 1. The Ravens are not an organization that is going to allow the inmates to run the farm. Hell that's the whole reason Harbaugh was on the sidelines and one Rex Ryan was not.
    You really don't understand team culture, and who the PLAYERS respect, regardless of who the head coach is. When Harbaugh arrived he was a nobody. Ray and Ed are future HOF'ers; Harbaugh was an errand boy for Andy Reid. He'd never even been a coordinator; only a special teams coach his entire career. Over time, it BECAME Harbaugh's team. And 2013 will, as Veritas pointed out, be a test. I think he'll pass the test. But to say it was his team since day 1 is just wrong. He might have been Bisciotti's choice, but he wasn't the players choice. He had to prove himself to them. You clearly underestimate Ray and Ed's influence on the pre-2013 Ravens. They didn't go to HARBAUGH'S house for spiritual prayers on Thursday night, they went to RAY'S house. So you can laugh all you want.




  3. #135

    Re: Rumor: Harbs wanted Reed gone

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    You really don't understand team culture, and who the PLAYERS respect, regardless of who the head coach is. When Harbaugh arrived he was a nobody. Ray and Ed are future HOF'ers; Harbaugh was an errand boy for Andy Reid. He'd never even been a coordinator; only a special teams coach his entire career. Over time, it BECAME Harbaugh's team. And 2013 will, as Veritas pointed out, be a test. I think he'll pass the test. But to say it was his team since day 1 is just wrong. He might have been Bisciotti's choice, but he wasn't the players choice. He had to prove himself to them. You clearly underestimate Ray and Ed's influence on the pre-2013 Ravens. They didn't go to HARBAUGH'S house for spiritual prayers on Thursday night, they went to RAY'S house. So you can laugh all you want.
    I played high school football and college Div 3 so I know a little something about team culture. But you being an ex-NFL player as I assume you are since you know so much more than us might have a leg up in that area lol

    And now that Ray and Ed are gone do you think they are going over to HARBAUGHS HOUSE (yes I can yell to) for spiritual guidance or is it more likely that they will be going to some other players house...I am betting on the latter. I think you confuse on the field leadership with the leadership of a football program. Those are two very distinct and different things. It was in high school, college and I am positive it is in the NFL.

    If this was ED AND RAY's TEAM as you assert then John would be coaching elsewhere. Ray and Ed are not dumb, they know who signs the checks, they like playing here and they know who the guy who signed their checks wants to run the show. Not hiring Rex was a direct and very open way of establishing that. Are Ed and Ray the on field leaders...most definitely but every team has on the field leader and its the head coaches job to utilize those guys to push his vision of what he feels the team should do.

    Go back and look what John did when he came here. I thought John made it clear that this was a new era, a new way of doing things and nothing he did was about cowtowing to Ed and Ray. Was he smart and used Ray and Ed to the extent that their leadership qualities help him achieve his goals...sure. No doubt though that he will do the same now they are gone just using different guys. Hell I thought John did a masterful job of getting these guys to buy in to his program without even having them realize they totally bought in. Sometimes the easiest way to get something done is to let others believe it was their idea in the first place.
    A linebacker's job is to knock out running backs, to knock out receivers, to chase the football,
    -Ray Lewis




  4. #136

    Re: Rumor: Harbs wanted Reed gone

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    You really don't understand team culture, and who the PLAYERS respect, regardless of who the head coach is. When Harbaugh arrived he was a nobody. Ray and Ed are future HOF'ers; Harbaugh was an errand boy for Andy Reid. He'd never even been a coordinator; only a special teams coach his entire career. Over time, it BECAME Harbaugh's team. And 2013 will, as Veritas pointed out, be a test. I think he'll pass the test. But to say it was his team since day 1 is just wrong. He might have been Bisciotti's choice, but he wasn't the players choice. He had to prove himself to them. You clearly underestimate Ray and Ed's influence on the pre-2013 Ravens. They didn't go to HARBAUGH'S house for spiritual prayers on Thursday night, they went to RAY'S house. So you can laugh all you want.
    One last thing. Field leadership and guiding a team as a football program are two different things. To me this upcoming season is as much a test for guys like Suggs, Ngata, Webb, Joe etc to step and fill the void left by the departures. That NOT a role John can fill as head coach. John may have to adjust some, that I understand but he is not going to wholesale change how he does things.
    A linebacker's job is to knock out running backs, to knock out receivers, to chase the football,
    -Ray Lewis




  5. #137

    Re: Rumor: Harbs wanted Reed gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenous1 View Post
    I played high school football and college Div 3 so I know a little something about team culture. But you being an ex-NFL player as I assume you are since you know so much more than us might have a leg up in that area lol

    And now that Ray and Ed are gone do you think they are going over to HARBAUGHS HOUSE (yes I can yell to) for spiritual guidance or is it more likely that they will be going to some other players house...I am betting on the latter. I think you confuse on the field leadership with the leadership of a football program. Those are two very distinct and different things. It was in high school, college and I am positive it is in the NFL.

    If this was ED AND RAY's TEAM as you assert then John would be coaching elsewhere. Ray and Ed are not dumb, they know who signs the checks, they like playing here and they know who the guy who signed their checks wants to run the show. Not hiring Rex was a direct and very open way of establishing that. Are Ed and Ray the on field leaders...most definitely but every team has on the field leader and its the head coaches job to utilize those guys to push his vision of what he feels the team should do.

    Go back and look what John did when he came here. I thought John made it clear that this was a new era, a new way of doing things and nothing he did was about cowtowing to Ed and Ray. Was he smart and used Ray and Ed to the extent that their leadership qualities help him achieve his goals...sure. No doubt though that he will do the same now they are gone just using different guys. Hell I thought John did a masterful job of getting these guys to buy in to his program without even having them realize they totally bought in. Sometimes the easiest way to get something done is to let others believe it was their idea in the first place.
    Part of your confusion lies in the very statement that he'll use "different guys". There ARE no "different guys" who carry the weight that Ray and Ed did. And therein lies the weakness of your argument. I believe he played his cards very well, bode his time, and waited until the de facto leaders were gone.

    Here's a perfect example. Do you honestly think that he'll hesitate to sit any other ILB on 3rd and long passing downs when he sees they can't cover? No. He won't. That was reserved for Ray Lewis because he was in a category all his own. Now that he's gone, the head coach won't have to weigh those sorts of issues; he'll be able to run the team the way he wants without those other special considerations. And if you don't see that those special considerations existed, then there's really nothing more to say.

    (And with all due respect to your high school and college football locker room experience, the NFL is so different than any other venue that most college coaches fail because dealing with multi-millionaires who can pick up and go to any team that will pay them the most is like being on another planet from high school and college ball. Was there ever a player on any of your teams that got the kind of special consideration that Ray Lewis got?)
    Last edited by RavensRule21215; 04-05-2013 at 10:13 PM.




  6. #138

    Re: Rumor: Harbs wanted Reed gone

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    Part of your confusion lies in the very statement that he'll use "different guys". There ARE no "different guys" who carry the weight that Ray and Ed did. And therein lies the weakness of your argument. I believe he played his cards very well, bode his time, and waited until the de facto leaders were gone. It's pretty simple really. But I'm sure with your high school and Div 3 experience, you are a true expert in these matters.
    Look your one that made the assumption that "You really don't understand team culture" lol now you wanna act all butthurt because I called you on it. Wow

    First off nobody said any other person would carry the weight of a Ray Lewis. Ed Reed was a leader in a very different way. Lumping them together as if they were equals in that regard is plain incorrect. Ray was always going to retire, you really think that John developed his philosophy of how he thinks a team should be run, what kinds of practices he should run and coaching philosophy around what Ray Lewis believed? Come on now.

    Where Ray will be missed is his on the field leadership. If you actually read what I posted you would notice that I named multiple guys who would have to step up and assume more leadership on the field. NO one guy is going to replace Ray. That does not mean the wheels fall off the cart and they become a bunch lost Football players. If Ray is really the leader you believe him to be and that much I do agree with you on, then his DNA is all over this team. He played with guys like Suggs, Ngata, Joe, Webb, etc for multiple years, its their turn to take that mantle. No one will do it like Ray or likely as good as Ray but they as a group will provide enough leadership or Ray was not half the leader we thought he was. I have to believe thats not the case and that just because Ray is not around these guys are gonna start acting like idiots and change how they go about business.

    There is this underlying tone that somehow Ray Lewis ran this franchise, he did not, he was incredible leader and an asset to the organization but he is far from the only person running the team, its philosophy and how they go about doing their business. I would argue that people from Steve B down the assistant coaches helped to provide an environment were Ray could become the legendary leader he became. I am just not as worried I guess that this same group of people will be unable to get talented players who are still here to provide the necessary on field leadership
    A linebacker's job is to knock out running backs, to knock out receivers, to chase the football,
    -Ray Lewis




  7. #139

    Re: Rumor: Harbs wanted Reed gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenous1 View Post
    First off nobody said any other person would carry the weight of a Ray Lewis. Ed Reed was a leader in a very different way. Lumping them together as if they were equals in that regard is plain incorrect. Ray was always going to retire, you really think that John developed his philosophy of how he thinks a team should be run, what kinds of practices he should run and coaching philosophy around what Ray Lewis believed? Come on now.
    What I believe is that he was very conscious of what Ray Lewis thought when he made decisions, and now that Ray is gone he's free of those considerations. Coaches can and do lose locker rooms. That's a reality. Rex talked about it up in New York at the end of a season. Sometimes it's because of locker room cancers; sometimes it's because of locker room leaders. The Ravens appear to have had a mix of both, and I think John Harbaugh did a very good job negotiating some very tricky player dynamics. There's always going to be player dynamics that a head coach has to deal with. But very few carry the weight of living legends like Ray Lewis and Ed Reed.
    Do you really believe that John is suddenly going to change everything he does simply because Ed and Ray are not around
    I believe he'll be breathing a lot easier.




  8. #140

    Re: Rumor: Harbs wanted Reed gone

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    What I believe is that he was very conscious of what Ray Lewis thought when he made decisions, and now that Ray is gone he's free of those considerations. Coaches can and do lose locker rooms. That's a reality. Rex talked about it up in New York at the end of a season. Sometimes it's because of locker room cancers; sometimes it's because of locker room leaders. The Ravens appear to have had a mix of both, and I think John Harbaugh did a very good job negotiating some very tricky player dynamics. There's always going to be player dynamics that a head coach has to deal with. But very few carry the weight of living legends like Ray Lewis and Ed Reed. I believe he'll be breathing a lot easier.
    I think if the Ravens wanted a coach who would run things the way Ed and Ray wanted them to they would have hired the very guy you mentioned Rex Ryan. I am sure John took Ray and Ed's opinions into consideration, he would be dumb if he did not. I doubt though he formed his entire decision making philosophy and conducted himself as a head coach the way Ray Lewis wanted him to. That part of him will not change. It will be different guys he will rely on for on the field leadership and he will have to negotiate getting the on the field leadership out of them what he wants the way he had to with Ed and Ray. Different guys, different challenges but the foundation for successfully dealing with it is there IMO. Based on his track record I feel he will find a way to do that.
    A linebacker's job is to knock out running backs, to knock out receivers, to chase the football,
    -Ray Lewis




  9. #141

    Re: Rumor: Harbs wanted Reed gone

    I see we have a pretty good debate going on here.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  10. #142

    Re: Rumor: Harbs wanted Reed gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenous1 View Post
    I think if the Ravens wanted a coach who would run things the way Ed and Ray wanted them to they would have hired the very guy you mentioned Rex Ryan. I am sure John took Ray and Ed's opinions into consideration, he would be dumb if he did not. I doubt though he formed his entire decision making philosophy and conducted himself as a head coach the way Ray Lewis wanted him to. That part of him will not change. It will be different guys he will rely on for on the field leadership and he will have to negotiate getting the on the field leadership out of them what he wants the way he had to with Ed and Ray. Different guys, different challenges but the foundation for successfully dealing with it is there IMO. Based on his track record I feel he will find a way to do that.
    Based on this I really don't think we fundamentally disagree. I think we got caught up in semantics.




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