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  1. #1

    How can anyone still believe in God



    After reading this quote


    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"


    I know most of you have probably seen it, but I'm kinda bored and want to start a religious debate. So christians, please explain your reasoning.





  2. #2
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    Are you talking exclusively about the Christian God?

    If not, define God. Also, define evil.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  3. #3

    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirdowski View Post
    Are you talking exclusively about the Christian God?

    If not, define God. Also, define evil.
    Well I didn't come up with the quote obviously but I my interpretation is that it applies to all gods. Evil=anything negative and all suffering in this case.




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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by RavenNation620 View Post
    Well I didn't come up with the quote obviously but I my interpretation is that it applies to all gods. Evil=anything negative and all suffering in this case.
    Your definition of evil is lacking. When Ted Bundy raped and murdered young women that was negative to the women and their families, but not to Ted. So based on whose negative experience do we base evil?

    In regard to suffering, most people who have had open heart surgery suffer a lot of pain after. Is open heart surgery evil?




  5. #5
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    Atheist, but chiming in to play Devil's Advocate (pun intended). The idea that God could prevent suffering isn't seen as a failing on his part. He could only prevent suffering by denying us free will, in which case we'd be mere thralls, bound by his will and not truly responsible for our lives. Instead he lets us make our own choices and errors and rewards in heaven those who suffer as a result. Consider the view point of a believer, is any suffering on earth truly material when an eternity of bliss awaits?

    All that said, my atheism lies in skepticism. I see no evidence of god, and thus choose to withhold belief in him. I live a good life and treat others well, if this is it and there is no afterlife, then I will have been a good person and maybe left the world a little better than it was on my arrival, and if there is a god, I would hope that he would understand my skepticism and embrace me in the afterlife in spite of it when compared to a life time of relatively good behavior. After all, Thomas didn't believe Christ had risen until he could stick his fingers in the womb, and he got in.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  6. #6

    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Atheist, but chiming in to play Devil's Advocate (pun intended). The idea that God could prevent suffering isn't seen as a failing on his part. He could only prevent suffering by denying us free will, in which case we'd be mere thralls, bound by his will and not truly responsible for our lives. Instead he lets us make our own choices and errors and rewards in heaven those who suffer as a result. Consider the view point of a believer, is any suffering on earth truly material when an eternity of bliss awaits?

    All that said, my atheism lies in skepticism. I see no evidence of god, and thus choose to withhold belief in him. I live a good life and treat others well, if this is it and there is no afterlife, then I will have been a good person and maybe left the world a little better than it was on my arrival, and if there is a god, I would hope that he would understand my skepticism and embrace me in the afterlife in spite of it when compared to a life time of relatively good behavior. After all, Thomas didn't believe Christ had risen until he could stick his fingers in the womb, and he got in.
    I know that's most christians justifications for it, which is why it's impossible to win a debate with them because all they resort to in the end is "god said so" "we weren't meant to understand god", and they basically speak FOR god, making up anything that seems like a quick response when they can't come up with anything rational.




  7. #7
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by RavenNation620 View Post
    I know that's most christians justifications for it, which is why it's impossible to win a debate with them because all they resort to in the end is "god said so" "we weren't meant to understand god", and they basically speak FOR god, making up anything that seems like a quick response when they can't come up with anything rational.
    Please quote where I said this once. Your take isn't even responsive to the post you quote.




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    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post

    All that said, my atheism lies in skepticism. I see no evidence of god, and thus choose to withhold belief in him. I live a good life and treat others well, if this is it and there is no afterlife, then I will have been a good person and maybe left the world a little better than it was on my arrival, and if there is a god, I would hope that he would understand my skepticism and embrace me in the afterlife in spite of it when compared to a life time of relatively good behavior. After all, Thomas didn't believe Christ had risen until he could stick his fingers in the womb, and he got in.
    Thomas Jefferson said it best, and I'm inclined to agree. "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  9. #9

    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirdowski View Post
    Thomas Jefferson said it best, and I'm inclined to agree. "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
    This is a fantastic quote and thank you for sharing.

    First off, I think we need to separate organized religion with the idea of God. I do not believe in prophets, I believe no man has any extra perception of the divine. Religion is rule of law for society in its origin.

    When I was a freshman in college I embroiled myself in spirituality, meditation, God. I actually became delusional, I thought I was connected to the divine. My thoughts were not inherently mine, I thought. internal and external perceptions melded into melody. In this way I found patterns in my walking life, it became mentally unhealthy when I couldn't stop creating patterns of numbers, sequential numbers, I attached emotions to numbers leaving my emotional responses quite irregular during this time period. I would walk alone in the woods and read animals, the movement of water, it all spoke to me because I thought god existed in everything and I thought I had a medium of communication. It was quite a bizarre situation.. (No I was not tripping), this occurred for I'd say 4-5 month period

    Ultimately I think that the idea of God is interesting and it captivates man. Man wants answers and perception and continual change play roles in our development as humans. God is an idea, and one that man will be talking about long after we're dead and the reasons are clear. We have no definite solutions just our perceptions.
    Last edited by conviction; 04-15-2013 at 11:08 PM.




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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Showtime is running it's movie "Borgias" (the original crime family) about a corrupt Pope who actually had a hit man and actually used him. It shows how corrupt the early church was and the abuse of power by the early popes. There were tons of illigitimate kids from the early popes and today we have the scandals from the priests. Not much has changed.

    http://www.sho.com/sho/the-borgias/h...borgiasgeneral


    The Pope in 1960 said the incense from the force has infiltrated the walls of the vatican. He was putting the cardinals and priests on notice that he knew about their satan worship and it spread to France and eventually the south east of the U.S. The term was never used again.

    The Force is a old testament Jewish term for Satan and George Lucas used it in his Star Wars
    movie when they said may be force be with you. He was actually talking about Satan and nobody knew it. Lucas is Jewish and well familiar with the old testament and the term.

    I really don't think God intended the church to go from the Upper Room to the Catholic Church and a pope. When Cornelius bowed to St Peter, Peter said no. You bow to no one except God.

    I'm really this close from dropping out of church and worshipping God in my own way. I get better sermons on TV anyway.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 04-16-2013 at 02:44 AM.
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  11. #11
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    Having said that, I believe, truly for lack of a better word, in "God." My conceptions and my understanding of God is always changing. I think, personally, necessarily so. In my mind God is entirely abstract with respect to our ability to reason. This is why I believe God is always seen as love. Love is the purest abstraction we are capable of conceiving.


    As far as evidence goes, disregarding any God of the gaps arguments, I think we are finding more and more evidence to support that our reality is a subset. A subset cannot prove itself, it requires reference to a higher system. This isn't mysticism, it's scientific fact. More than just scientific fact actually, it's a fundamental pillar of logic, which is itself the foundation of mathematics and science; any formal system cannot prove it's own validity. With this being the truth of the matter, how can we rely strictly on formal systems of logic and mathematics (empirical science) to claim absolute truth, when even if there was, these systems could never prove it? This is why scientific reductionism is futile. This doesn't somehow make science a lesser endeavor, it just simply means it is limited.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  12. #12
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    I don't think the explanation I provided was "because god said so". It was more along the lines of if there is an afterlife, and its eternal and only the good are there (I'm leaving the concept of hell out for simplicity) then why should a life of suffering, even a long one of 90 years or more, be viewed as a great hardship compared to eternity of bliss and reward? It's not a compelling argument from an evidentiary standpoint since there isn't any proof of it, but its a logical one.

    We all make choices with negative outcomes in the short term (I won't buy this new car I really want) because we expect a positive outcome in the long term (With the money I save I can put a down payment on a house.)
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




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