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  1. #73
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God



    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    I summarized to show why I felt your feelings were hurt.

    Petty? Childish? Antagonizing? At worst, I've had a little snark. I've said nothing that was disrespectful.

    I'm not going to handle people with kid gloves just because this section of my favorite Ravens website is apparently an echo chamber filled with conservative religious people.
    Who the hell is talking about religion?


    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    Jonboy pointed it out and Sirdowski did before him. I remain unimpressed. Because the second you say, "Nothing spontaneously acts without something to cause that action" and then say there IS something that spontaneously acts without something to cause the action (god) your point is invalid.
    No not something, someone, there is a difference, no?


    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    Cool. I just don't think you have a good reason, since every reason that has been presented in this thread has been poetic, metaphorical, or a based on a logical fallacy.
    Cool, remind me to care what you think.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  2. #74

    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    No not something, someone, there is a difference, no?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Cool, remind me to care what you think.
    Then you should have stopped responding like a day and a half ago.

    (And way to be petty, childish, and antagonizing.)




  3. #75
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    No.
    There isn't a difference between something and someone?


    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    Then you should have stopped responding like a day and a half ago.

    (And way to be petty, childish, and antagonizing.)
    THat's exactly how you've been responding. Are you now saying you've petty, childish, and antagonizing?

    BTW- who is talking about religion?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  4. #76

    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    There isn't a difference between something and someone?
    A someone is a something.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    THat's exactly how you've been responding.
    Actually, it hasn't. Please show me a quote where I was as flippant as, "Cool, remind me to care what you think."

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Are you now saying you've petty, childish, and antagonizing?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    BTW- who is talking about religion?
    You're right, no one has been. My original sentence should have been:

    I'm not going to handle people with kid gloves just because this section of my favorite Ravens website is apparently an echo chamber filled with people who believe on faith.

    Not a shot. This sentence just more accurately reflects what I feel and how the conversation has been up to now.




  5. #77
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    A someone is a something.
    You know the point I am trying to make. I am someone (and something a human) my computer is something.

    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    Actually, it hasn't. Please show me a quote where I was as flippant as, "Cool, remind me to care what you think."
    I think it started right about here:
    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    Please let the board know when you have attained your Nobel Prize.
    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    You're right, no one has been. My original sentence should have been:

    I'm not going to handle people with kid gloves just because this section of my favorite Ravens website is apparently an echo chamber filled with people who believe on faith.

    Not a shot. This sentence just more accurately reflects what I feel and how the conversation has been up to now.
    No one expects you to handle anyone with kid gloves. The conversation has been very respectful and people sharing their opinions without anyone else saying, why do you believe in fairy tales if you can't prove them. All was well and good till you case in pounding your chest like Godzilla about how proud an atheist you are, and spouting what you feel you need to with out reading what people are saying.

    For example. HR said this:
    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Logic is about definitions. For there to be a finite, you must also have the infinite. The infinite is unexplainable, undefinable and something you cannot personify. Then, by definition, the infinite must be a higher being. It is "God" per se? Who knows? I happen to believe there is a God who got this whole ball of wax started.

    I don't look at Faith as a competition of who's right or "logically superior" to someone else. Perhaps there's our fundamental difference. Faith (or lack of) is a deeply personal issue, and while it's being discussed openly here, isn't something one should force on to one another.

    Faith is the absence of logic so of course, as someone who sees Faith through the prism of logic, cannot understand.
    Instead reading what he was saying, or trying to understand what he meant, you went on for 3 pages of "you said faith is the absence of logic, faith is the absence of logic nana nana boo boo stick your head in doodoo"

    As HR pointed out, faith is a deep personal issue, no one has told you you don't have a good reason not to believe what you want, you should be respectful at least to others about what they believe.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  6. #78
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer.

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  7. #79
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    Well said NC
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  8. #80

    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Well said NC
    Disagree.




  9. #81

    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    You know the point I am trying to make. I am someone (and something a human) my computer is something.
    I know the point you are trying to make. Unfortunately, it is a terrible point. If you say something can't come from nothing then say a god can come from nothing, you are being intellectually dishonest. It is a logical fallacy. In logic, one does not get to make rules and then break them, let alone immediately/in the same breath. Whether or not a god is a something or a someone doesn't make a difference, because a someone is a type of something.

    It's like saying, "An animal can't have its heart stop beating and still be alive, but parrots can," and then when someone points out how a parrot is an animal, you say, "No, a parrot is a BIRD," as if all birds aren't animals. All someones are also somethings. Your, Sirdowski's, and Jonboy's point is invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    I think it started right about here: Please let the board know when you have attained your Nobel Prize.
    I stick by that statement because it made a quick point and, at worst, was (to use HR's word) "snarky." So I'll say now what I said to HR: It may have been snarky but it was also true. If someone (in this case, Sirdowski) thinks it's "easy" to prove a god exists using nature/science, that someone will get a Nobel Prize and deserve it. The fact he hasn't yet suggests it's not so "easy." (FWIW, he all but said afterward that it was probably not the best choice of words for him.)

    A little bit different from "Cool, remind me to care what you think."

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    All was well and good till you case in pounding your chest like Godzilla about how proud an atheist you are, and spouting what you feel you need to with out reading what people are saying.
    Like Godzilla? Ha. Sure, I'm a proud atheist. But I'm not confident that I'm right. I'm confident that I'm being rational and logical while a few others here are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    As HR pointed out, faith is a deep personal issue, no one has told you you don't have a good reason not to believe what you want, you should be respectful at least to others about what they believe.
    Just because something is a "deep personal issue" doesn't mean others don't have the right to comment on it, or that the issue should not be subjected to the same level of scrutiny as anything else would be when it's the topic on the table.

    I agree that the commentary/scrutiny should be respectful, and I think I have been here. (I haven't been perfectly polite, but neither have you and few people ever are.) But if believers take offense when someone calls their belief/faith "illogical" at the same time they insist that logic cannot be applied to their belief/faith, then they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. That's something that deserves to be called out.
    Last edited by akashicrecorder; 05-28-2013 at 05:25 PM.




  10. #82
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    I know the point you are trying to make. Unfortunately, it is a terrible point. If you say something can't come from nothing then say a god can come from nothing, you are being intellectually dishonest. It is a logical fallacy. In logic, one does not get to make rules and then break them, let alone immediately/in the same breath. Whether or not a god is a something or a someone doesn't make a difference, because a someone is a type of something.
    Okay, well than if wasn't God, what is science's explanation for something coming from nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    It's like saying, "An animal can't have its heart stop beating and still be alive, but parrots can," and then when someone points out how a parrot is an animal, you say, "No, a parrot is a BIRD," as if all birds aren't animals. All someones are also somethings. Your, Sirdowski's, and Jonboy's point is invalid.
    It's not like that at all, but since you seem to think that's the only point we've got and you can call it "invalid" as if that means your right, that's cool.


    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    Like Godzilla? Ha. Sure, I'm a proud atheist. But I'm not confident that I'm right. I'm confident that I'm being rational and logical while a few others here are not.
    So you're the authority on who is being logical and rational? Or is it if someone doesn't agree with you, than they're not being logical or rational?

    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    Just because something is a "deep personal issue" doesn't mean others don't have the right to comment on it, or that the issue should not be subjected to the same level of scrutiny as anything else would be when it's the topic on the table.
    Just remember that when you jump down others throat about their comments on matters you care about i.e gay marriage, political correctness etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    I agree that the commentary/scrutiny should be respectful, and I think I have been here. (I haven't been perfectly polite, but neither have you and few people ever are.) But if believers take offense when someone calls their belief/faith "illogical" at the same time they insist that logic cannot be applied to their belief/faith, then they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. That's something that deserves to be called out.
    I don't take offense when anybody calls my faith illigical, I haven't taken offense to anything you said. I just didn't have an interest in talking to someone who says the are not trying to offend me and then finishes that post with the equivalent of "you believe in fairy tales ( what an idiot)". But tell me something, to have faith is to believe in something that you can't prove or cannot see, than by that definition isn't your faith in how the universe came to be "illogical"?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  11. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Okay, well than if wasn't God, what is science's explanation for something coming from nothing?
    The prevailing theory is a Penrose-Hawking singularity. Essentially, there's a mathematical model of the big bang, or singularity theorem, that shows the big bang caused itself. It was able to cause itself, as it's supposed it existed in "nothing".


    Just replace "god" with "singularity":


    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post

    Jonboy pointed it out and Sirdowski did before him. I remain unimpressed. Because the second you say, "Nothing spontaneously acts without something to cause that action" and then say there IS something that spontaneously acts without something to cause that action (god) your point is invalid.
    As a matter of fact, science tells us that everything in the universe has a cause, but the universe itself did not.

    How, by your own standards, is this not "invalid" also?



    The point to take away from this is not that both views are simply invalid because they invoke an uncaused cause, but that for there to be a causal chain at all, there had to be an uncaused cause . This fact alone should plainly show you that you are climbing a slippery slope with your insistence on logic. I've tried to show you that, but you are unable to see the forest for the trees.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  12. #84
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    To the point that people here took offense to something.

    I didn't take offense to anything that was said either.

    My issue is the need by aka (or anyone for that matter) to "prove" others wrong. Very curious and, in a small way, sad. A good debate is wonderful. Being lectured? Not so much.

    I imagine this is exactly how my gay friends feel when someone tells them how "wrong" they are.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




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