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  1. #85
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    I seem to recall that two of the most intelligent scientists in human history, Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein, were both religious.

    Both thought they were attempting to figure out the mind of God.

    Both thought the universe was so splendid, so spectacular that it could only have been the work of something divine.

    Guess they're just "illogical".
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  2. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I seem to recall that two of the most intelligent scientists in human history, Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein, were both religious.

    Both thought they were attempting to figure out the mind of God.

    Both thought the universe was so splendid, so spectacular that it could only have been the work of something divine.

    Guess they're just "illogical".
    Which is an interesting perspective all of its own.

    Two gents that were spiritual (I prefer the term spiritual over religious) in their own right, yet still sought out answers through physical and theoretical science to explain the (at the time) unexplainable.

    Good point HR.

    I think being spiritual doesnt mean that you have to throw away science. Clearly, if there is a divine something they or it doesnt have a problem with mankind probing the physical world to understand their surroundings and place in nature. And vice-versa, being scientific doesnt mean that you cannot be spiritual.

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  3. #87
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    Yes, spiritual is a much better word.
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  4. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    HR.

    I think being spiritual doesnt mean that you have to throw away science. Clearly, if there is a divine something they or it doesnt have a problem with mankind probing the physical world to understand their surroundings and place in nature. And vice-versa, being scientific doesnt mean that you cannot be spiritual.

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    Exactly.

    Science and faith are not mutually exclusive, and are, I would argue, inextricably intertwined.

    The simplest analogy possible summarizes the issue, IMHO, perfectly:

    Imagine a team of Nobel laureate scientists who set out to prove what a letter written to one of their colleagues says. The chemist, would analyze the composition, the physicist it's movement through space-time, the biologist maybe would analyze for some sort of organic footprint, all this only to find they are powerless to accomplish what they set out to prove: The meaning of the message is not found in the physics and chemistry of the paper ink.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

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  5. #89
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I seem to recall that two of the most intelligent scientists in human history, Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein, were both religious.

    Both thought they were attempting to figure out the mind of God.

    Both thought the universe was so splendid, so spectacular that it could only have been the work of something divine.

    Guess they're just "illogical".
    Sorry HR but Einstein was hardly religious. He grew up as an atheist in a non-religious home but was exposed to both Catholic and Judaic schools. He didn't believe in God. He believed everything evolved around and was proven by equations. He couldn't accept that there was a beginning because that would say there was a God who created it.

    As for Jesus, he believed that he existed as a good prophet and teacher but he never accepted him as his Lord and Savior.


    Then Hubble proved the universe was expanding and Einstein changed to believing
    in an impersonal but not personal God so that is hardly being religious much less spiritual. He still believed there was no evil. Those who say they don't believe in evil are simply saying they don't believe in a God. They can't have it both ways.

    In the end, Einstein wasn't even a theist much less religious. Agnostic is the closest you could call him. This is hardly religous.

    __________________________________________
    On Spinoza, Einstein said, "I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings."
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    http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 05-28-2013 at 11:46 PM.
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  6. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post

    Sorry HR but Einstein was hardly religious. He grew up as an atheist in a non-religious home but was exposed to both Catholic and Judaic schools. He didn't believe in God. He believed everything evolved around and was proven by equations. He couldn't accept that there was a beginning because that would say there was a God who created it.

    As for Jesus, he believed that he existed as a good prophet and teacher but he never accepted him as his Lord and Savior.

    Then Hubble proved the universe was expanding and Einstein changed to believing
    in an impersonal but not personal God so that is hardly being religious much less spiritual. He still believed there was no evil. Those who say they don't believe in evil are simply saying they don't believe in a God. They can't have it both ways.

    In the end, Einstein wasn't even a theist much less religious. Agnostic is the closest you could call him. This is hardly religous.

    __________________________________________
    On Spinoza, Einstein said, "I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings."
    _____________________________________________

    http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html
    If you were to remove the Christian "good vs evil" rhetoric then you might be able to objectively look at someone else's spirituality for what they perceive it to be.

    You're unable to do that.

    And I don't mean that as a sleight against you, Trap. However, that is what you believe. You believe in good vs evil, heaven and hell, god and satan. Being spiritual and in some cases, religious, doesn't mean that you have to believe in good vs evil.

    It is just unfair and irresponsible to try and apply Christian foundations to someone who may not acknowledge those foundations.

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    Last edited by wickedsolo; 05-29-2013 at 05:41 AM.
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  7. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    If you were to remove the Christian "good vs evil" rhetoric then you might be able to objectively look at someone else's spirituality for what they perceive it to be.

    You're unable to do that.

    Sent from my DROID X2 using Forum Runner
    Exactly.

    Einstein was a noted deist and spoke on it frequently. That was more to the point.
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  8. #92
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Sorry, but I respectfully submit that Einstein was not a deist. He was Agnostic atheist like most scientists are, not a strong atheist. He believed in scientific pantheism although that term didn't exist in his life time but that's what he was.

    He believed the universe was eternal, so it could not have been “Created”.

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    Last edited by AirFlacco; 05-29-2013 at 06:59 AM.
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  9. #93
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    You can be sorry all you want. Just know you're wrong. That's the danger of typing into google a questions and finding exactly what you're looking for.

    And I clarified my remarks to mean spiritual.

    Einstein believed in Spinoza's God, that is he believed in a God, just not a personal one.

    In his biography, written Walter Isaacson, Einstein was very clear he was not an atheist and repeatedly rejected the notion. Perhaps a change in tactics is in order, Trap. Having a web site simply means the check cleared.

    I'll take a biographer over a web site every day of the week.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  10. #94

    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
    Does this question not assume that we perceive things - such as "evil" - the same way that God perceives these things? Is that a logical assumption to be making?
    Last edited by JohnBKistler; 05-29-2013 at 08:18 AM.




  11. #95
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    Does this question not assume that we perceive things - such as "evil" - the same way that God perceives these things? Is that a logical assumption to be making?
    "Evil" is a relative term. We apply it to things that we, as humans, find negative or subversive and cannot explain.

    Is a Lion evil for eating an animal in the plains of Africa? The Lion's prey may think so, but the prey doesn't understand how delicious it is for the Lion.

    There is no governing body of evil, or good.
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  12. #96
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    Re: How can anyone still believe in God

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    You can be sorry all you want. Just know you're wrong. That's the danger of typing into google a questions and finding exactly what you're looking for.

    And I clarified my remarks to mean spiritual.

    Yea, after I challenged your religious remark.
    He's not even spiritual. Believing that God is the universe is not spiritual.



    Einstein believed in Spinoza's God, that is he believed in a God, just not a personal one.

    That was my line above. I listed the Spinoza reference but believing that God
    is the universe is not spiritual.


    In his biography, written Walter Isaacson, Einstein was very clear he was not an atheist and repeatedly rejected the notion. Perhaps a change in tactics is in order, Trap. Having a web site simply means the check cleared.

    I'll take a biographer over a web site every day of the week.



    Im listing people who are educated on the subject. I posted links. Re-read the link,
    it posted references from authors and gave a direct quote from Einstein himself saying he is Agnostic. You just say he talked about it w/o posting anything.

    YOu can't prove that my links are wrong.

    Here's another direct quote from one of the authors in the above link. This is a
    direct quote from a letter from Einstein to Berkowitz, Oct 1950 just 5 years before
    his death in 1955. You can't get any better than that.

    You can't deny this but you will.

    ______________________________________________________
    My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment." (Albert Einstein in a letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59–215; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The New Quotable Einstein, Princeton, New Jersey: Prin
    __________________________________________
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 05-29-2013 at 01:25 PM.
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