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  1. #61
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    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez



    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    Vernon Davis is the gold standard.


    He's the one I would want.

    Gronk is really really good, and really really big, which makes him a really really big target to get hit. Give me the player that can play 10 years + and give me steady production because at this point, the TE being the focal point of the offense up there in NE hasn't produced any more rings.




  2. #62
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    If Vernon Davis were the focal point of an offense with a QB like Brady, he would consistently be a 1,000 yard receiver. No doubt about it. He is one of the strongest guys in the NFL, he is faster than a lot of the receivers in the league, he is a hell of a blocker, and he is 6'4" 255-260lbs.

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  3. #63

    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I would take Vernon Davis all day, every day over any other TE in the league.

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    ya, sorry that's not close. Gronk is a slower Vernon Davis that is 4-5 inches taller, a better blocker with almost double the catch radius.
    I like Vernon, A LOT, but he isn't close to Gronk. He is the next closest thing to Gronk as a two way TE, but IMO, Gronk is better in both regards. The only thing Vernon has on Gronk is health and speed.




  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    ya, sorry that's not close. Gronk is a slower Vernon Davis that is 4-5 inches taller, a better blocker with almost double the catch radius.
    I like Vernon, A LOT, but he isn't close to Gronk. He is the next closest thing to Gronk as a two way TE, but IMO, Gronk is better in both regards. The only thing Vernon has on Gronk is health and speed.
    Isn't close?!?!

    That's a bunch of hyperbole there.

    You can make the case for both but to say they're not close is ridiculous.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  5. #65

    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Isn't close?!?!

    That's a bunch of hyperbole there.

    You can make the case for both but to say they're not close is ridiculous.
    Davis- 7 years, 40 TD's
    Gronk, 3 years, 38 TD's. 39 total
    Gronk is a much better blocker, averages 1.4 y/c more, fumbles less, gets more YAC, is almost 10% more likely to catch a pass on which he is targeted, thus is better in almost every single measurable way, even if you take out the "he plays with Tm Brady and is targeted more" argument out of the equation.

    I stand by my assertion hat there is not a position in the NFL that has as much disparity between the best and second best at the position. I'd be curious to see someone even ATTEMPT to make a case for VD being BETTER then Gronk. It would absolutely HAVE TO involve taking Gronk's best season out of the equation for nebulous reasons. It would also HAVE TO rely on the Brady vs Alex Smith/Kaepernick argument which is again nebulous as Alex Smith leaned HEAVILY on VD for years.




  6. #66
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    So its simply about stats now? If you have to go to simple, out of context stats then you've made my point for me.

    If Davis had one of the best QB's in the game throwing to him since his entrance in the league, those numbers would be WAY different.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  7. #67

    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    So its simply about stats now? If you have to go to simple, out of context stats then you've made my point for me.

    If Davis had one of the best QB's in the game throwing to him since his entrance in the league, those numbers would be WAY different.
    oh, ok, great case made. The eye test I think is even further apart then the stats. The stats I posted, sans the Career TD number, are independent of targets, but simply are based on per target or per catch figures. I honestly would like to see any sort of case that even comes close to showing how it could possibly be that VD is better. Please try, because I don't think it can be done. Athleticism doesn't equal better player.




  8. #68
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    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    oh, ok, great case made. The eye test I think is even further apart then the stats. The stats I posted, sans the Career TD number, are independent of targets, but simply are based on per target or per catch figures. I honestly would like to see any sort of case that even comes close to showing how it could possibly be that VD is better. Please try, because I don't think it can be done. Athleticism doesn't equal better player.
    That wasn't what I was disputing. You claimed they were not even close. I was countering that.

    I agree with you. I think Gronk is indeed the better tight end.

    I just cant agree with the notion they're not close in terms of talent and skill. For me, they are 1 & 2 on TE's in this league.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  9. #69

    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    That wasn't what I was disputing. You claimed they were not even close. I was countering that.

    I agree with you. I think Gronk is indeed the better tight end.

    I just cant agree with the notion they're not close in terms of talent and skill. For me, they are 1 & 2 on TE's in this league.
    Agreed that they are 1 and 2. But I don't think it's close. If Vernon weren't so short, then it would be different. I'm saying it would be easier to say that Larry Fitz or Andre Johnson were better then Calvin, or that Arian Foster or Jamal Charles is better then AP , then it would be to say that VD is better then Gronk. I think,in the entire game, there is no bigger discrepency between the best and second best players at a position then TE. The three positions I mentioned, are likely the only consensus positions, where basically everyone can agree on the top dog. I would add JJ Watt to that list, but with 3-4 and 4-3, job descriptions vary so much that it's hard to separate JJ from guys like Ngata while also from guys like Ware, and Peppers.




  10. #70

    Re: Pitta/Dickson vs. Gronk/Hernandez

    Who's really to say we don't wind up with Gronk AND Pitta in that draft if NE didn't move up?

    Bottom line you can't really say HOW it would've really panned out, and if you can, can you please give me the lotto numbers for tonight? I could use a couple extra Mill.

    But right at this second barring everything else, and ignoring a certain persons legal issues I'd take Gronk and Dez over Pitta and Dickson any day of the week. Sorry but Dicson's contributions in the SB or whatever else could've easily been accomplished by either Gronk or Dez. Pitta while I think he's a very good TE and a perfect "next heap" and his role. I'll take their stats over Pitta/Dicson any day. Sorry.




  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post

    ya, sorry that's not close. Gronk is a slower Vernon Davis that is 4-5 inches taller, a better blocker with almost double the catch radius.
    I like Vernon, A LOT, but he isn't close to Gronk. He is the next closest thing to Gronk as a two way TE, but IMO, Gronk is better in both regards. The only thing Vernon has on Gronk is health and speed.
    Gronk is what...6'6"? 6'7"?

    So...more like 2 inches...


    Oh, and you're wrong about catch radius too. Vernon Davis has a 35.5" arm length. Over 1" longer than Gronk's.

    Vernon Davis is stronger, faster, can jump higher, is just as good as a run blocker, and he is just as good of a receiver. Oh, and he doesnt dance with his shirt off and get hurt.

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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post

    Davis- 7 years, 40 TD's
    Gronk, 3 years, 38 TD's. 39 total
    Gronk is a much better blocker, averages 1.4 y/c more, fumbles less, gets more YAC, is almost 10% more likely to catch a pass on which he is targeted, thus is better in almost every single measurable way, even if you take out the "he plays with Tm Brady and is targeted more" argument out of the equation.

    I stand by my assertion hat there is not a position in the NFL that has as much disparity between the best and second best at the position. I'd be curious to see someone even ATTEMPT to make a case for VD being BETTER then Gronk. It would absolutely HAVE TO involve taking Gronk's best season out of the equation for nebulous reasons. It would also HAVE TO rely on the Brady vs Alex Smith/Kaepernick argument which is again nebulous as Alex Smith leaned HEAVILY on VD for years.
    Put Vernon Davis on the Patriots the last 3 years and
    would argue that you would see similar numbers. Maybe better.

    In fact, I dont think comparing stats is really all that fair in this circumstance anyway. Namely because you start comparing Alex Smith and an offense predicated on Frank Gore with Tom Brady and an offense based on a 4,500+ yard per season passing attack.

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