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  1. #241

    Re: Jaws' QB Rankings on ESPN



    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    In related news, internet servers have crashed all over Western PA.
    I am in Western PA for business as we speak and the Yinzers are not happy. Someone said to me that Flacco belongs down with Brandon Weeden.

    Yeah Right.




  2. #242
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    Re: Jaws' QB Rankings on ESPN

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    In related news, internet servers have crashed all over Western PA.
    Over the last few days I have spent a lot of time defending Tom Brady. Mostly its because as good as Joe Flacco has been, I honestly can't say Flacco is better than Brady with a straight face. It is no knock on Joe, he is very good and obviously good enough to win a Super Bowl, but if I am honest, Jaws has it right and he is probably th 5-7th best QB in the league right now and there are 4 guys who should definitely be ahead of him based on their total collective records and/or physical ability. We can argue and that's fine, but I am pretty comfortable defending my position and I kind of feel that to say otherwise would make me too much of a homer.

    Ben Roethlisberger is not better than Joe Flacco right now and the main reason is injuries. There are certain things Ben does better than Joe, like extend the play when healthy. We Ravens fans know better than anybody that until you have Ben knocked down and the whistle is blown, don't count him out. When he plays the Steelers are good. But Joe has had more success than Ben and the Steelers over the last two years and I feel its not really debatable. The Ravens are the 2 time defending AFC North Champion and that counts for something against other QB's in the division. The Ben Roethlisberger of 2013 is not the same as the one from 2007-2009. Until he proves he can overcome his injuries and play a full season without getting himself killed, he is hurting his team in November and December. While his O-Line is not very good, his style of play leads to him running around unprotected. To ignore the Raven's success and Joe's part of it while ignoring Ben's recent failing is to be a bit of Steelers homer.




  3. #243

    Re: Jaws' QB Rankings on ESPN

    Quote Originally Posted by somedumbguy View Post
    Over the last few days I have spent a lot of time defending Tom Brady. Mostly its because as good as Joe Flacco has been, I honestly can't say Flacco is better than Brady with a straight face. It is no knock on Joe, he is very good and obviously good enough to win a Super Bowl, but if I am honest, Jaws has it right and he is probably th 5-7th best QB in the league right now and there are 4 guys who should definitely be ahead of him based on their total collective records and/or physical ability. We can argue and that's fine, but I am pretty comfortable defending my position and I kind of feel that to say otherwise would make me too much of a homer.

    Ben Roethlisberger is not better than Joe Flacco right now and the main reason is injuries. There are certain things Ben does better than Joe, like extend the play when healthy. We Ravens fans know better than anybody that until you have Ben knocked down and the whistle is blown, don't count him out. When he plays the Steelers are good. But Joe has had more success than Ben and the Steelers over the last two years and I feel its not really debatable. The Ravens are the 2 time defending AFC North Champion and that counts for something against other QB's in the division. The Ben Roethlisberger of 2013 is not the same as the one from 2007-2009. Until he proves he can overcome his injuries and play a full season without getting himself killed, he is hurting his team in November and December. While his O-Line is not very good, his style of play leads to him running around unprotected. To ignore the Raven's success and Joe's part of it while ignoring Ben's recent failing is to be a bit of Steelers homer.
    I agree with this 100%. Great post.




  4. #244
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    Re: Jaws' QB Rankings on ESPN

    In the realm of 'if money were no object' and I could convince Jaws to go along with a gag, I would love to have him 'disappear' then an anonymous tape show up days later as if captured by terrorists, guarded by obscured men wearing Steelers jerseys, beaten up, 'confessing' that Ben is obviously better than Flacco.

    Even funnier would then be to watch certain boards rationalize agreement.




  5. #245

    Re: Jaws' QB Rankings on ESPN

    Quote Originally Posted by somedumbguy View Post
    Yes lets compare. In 2008, Matt Cassell through for just under 3,700 yards and 21 touchdowns and 11 INTs. In 2007, Tom Brady for 4,800 50 TD's and 8 Int's. In 2009 coming off an injury he threw for just under 4,400 yards, 28 TD's, 13 INTs. Brady also made the playoffs where Cassell did not. To me it looks like Brady was clearly better both before and after by a wide margin.
    Matt Cassel's stats are for 1 year as an unknown QB in the Patriots O system. You don't open the entire playbook to a first year starter even if it is Joe Montana, Johnny Unitas, or Aaron Rodgers. Cassel's stats were a lot better in that system than another first year QB's that edged the Patriots out of a playoff spot that year.

    http://www.nfl.com/player/joeflacco/382/careerstats

    Joe Flacco came into a Ravens O system that had gone 13-3 just 2 seasons prior. In 2006 Steve McNair (R.I.P.) threw for just over 3,000 yards and 16 TDs. In 2008 Joe Flacco threw for just under 3,000 yards and 14 TDs. That is pretty damn close numbers from a vet QB to a rookie/first year QB. This also doesn't take into account the coaching changes that took place in Joe's first year. This is also illustrating the difference between a QB after an 11 year career with his original team while trying to keep that NFL dream alive with a new team, and a rookie QB with nothing but upside four years before bringing home the Lombardi trophy

    Now for Brady 2007 was that record breaking year for passing TDs, yards, and consecutive regular season games won. So that may not be the best year to use, but it also doesn't take into account that 2007 was the last year the Patriots had been allowed to videotape opposing coaches using hand signals to send plays into their D players either. Matt Cassel threw for 3,693 yards and 21 TDs while Brady did throw for well over 4,000 yards and a shipload of TDs in those years surrounding Matt Cassel's, but for a backup to have those kinds of numbers is unusual.

    All I am saying is I personally am not impressed by Tom Brady as a QB ever since his injury season of 2008. I had heard people talk about the Patriots O system, the same way they talk about the Ravens D system, where players get traded or retire and the team doesn't lose a step. Now prior to 2008 I thought it was because of Tom Brady, but ever since Matt Cassel came in and kept that team in the playoff hunt.

    It is only because of the 2008 Ravens (11-6) that the 2008 Patriots (11-6) didn't make the playoffs. I have a feeling that if the Patriots had knocked the Ravens out of the 2008 playoffs, there may be a lot more of you that agree with me. If the Patriots had won the 2008 Super Bowl, I think Tom Brady would be playing in Kansas City right now. That is only because of Bill Belichick's usual M.O. of cutting high paid players when he can get some other player to be just as successful for less money.

    I'm not saying Brady is a bad QB, I'm just saying it may be just like Ray Lewis with the Ravens. Would Ray have lasted all 17 seasons with one team if not for the Ravens D system? Had he gone after the money like Edgerton Hartwell, Adalius Thomas, and Bart Scott would he have lasted nearly as long, or looked as good?

    But getting back to my point, I believe that Matt Cassel had proved that Tom Brady is just a good QB, and not the super QB everyone makes him out to be. We will never get to see him play for another team to see if he really is that great (like Joe Montana with the Chiefs) or if it was just the Patriots O system.


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  6. #246
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    Re: Jaws' QB Rankings on ESPN

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens75 View Post
    I am in Western PA for business as we speak and the Yinzers are not happy. Someone said to me that Flacco belongs down with Brandon Weeden.

    Yeah Right.
    Just got me some Scott's De-Weeden spray. Yeah, the lawn looks great now. Wonder why the Browns don't use it (?) ... Bc




  7. #247
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    Re: Jaws' QB Rankings on ESPN

    Quote Originally Posted by Dade View Post
    You Sir have just won this debate.
    Except of course that the two cases are completely different and irrelevant to each other.




  8. #248
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    Re: Jaws' QB Rankings on ESPN

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Bru View Post
    Now for Brady 2007 was that record breaking year for passing TDs, yards, and consecutive regular season games won. So that may not be the best year to use, but it also doesn't take into account that 2007 was the last year the Patriots had been allowed to videotape opposing coaches using hand signals to send plays into their D players either.
    This is factually incorrect. Spygate happened after the 2007 opener -- so it was only game 1 of the 2007 season that was affected by video.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Bru View Post
    All I am saying is I personally am not impressed by Tom Brady as a QB ever since his injury season of 2008. I had heard people talk about the Patriots O system, the same way they talk about the Ravens D system, where players get traded or retire and the team doesn't lose a step. Now prior to 2008 I thought it was because of Tom Brady, but ever since Matt Cassel came in and kept that team in the playoff hunt.
    Certainly you are entitled to this opinion. All great QB's are standing on the shoulders of great receivers and/or a great line and/or a great D, running game, scheme, etc. Part of the fun of comparing QB's is subjectively looking at how good you think they are all by themselves, given how much support they have around them. It is a reason I highly value Elway (who did a lot with almost nothing), while I feel Aikman is overrated (RIDICULOUS amount of surrounding talent.)

    But saying you don't believe Brady is as good as everyone else claims he is, and using those arguments to put him behind, say, Manning, Favre, or Marino is one thing. Saying he's not top 15 or top 20, and should be behind Tarkenton, Bradshaw, etc is another thing entirely. (I realize that wasn't you, but it's where this mess started.)

    And the Unitas/Morrall comparison completely undercuts your Cassell/Brady argument. Morrall was actually BETTER in some ways during those seasons; Cassell was good, but clearly no Brady during his stint.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Bru View Post
    But getting back to my point, I believe that Matt Cassel had proved that Tom Brady is just a good QB, and not the super QB everyone makes him out to be. We will never get to see him play for another team to see if he really is that great (like Joe Montana with the Chiefs) or if it was just the Patriots O system.
    Funny that you bring up Joe Montana. He was nowhere near the QB in KC that he was in San Francisco. If ever there was a system QB, it was Joe Montana. I still think he is top-3 all time, but would he have been if he had not been in the most revolutionary offensive system the NFL has ever seen?
    "Leave. Your. Mark."




  9. #249
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    Re: Jaws' QB Rankings on ESPN

    Anyone catch who's next on the list?

    It should have been on the noon Sportscenter.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  10. #250
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    Re: Jaws' QB Rankings on ESPN

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Anyone catch who's next on the list?

    It should have been on the noon Sportscenter.
    Ben at 7 was the last thing posted. If you google it you will see a few Steeler sites already dissing how Flacco could be higher. Here's one

    http://www.steelersdepot.com/2013/07...oethlisberger/
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  11. #251

    Re: Jaws' QB Rankings on ESPN

    Coming into this season and beyond if I could pick a quarterback to lead my team Rodgers is the guy right now that many would pick including myself. Past him who is next? I would pick Joe over Manning or Brady because their best years are behind him and I believe Joe hasn't had his best years yet. The young guns are all intriguing but Luck then Kapernick stand out to me. I was impressed with Luck last year and expect him to elevate to the top very soon.

    I find it interesting that many are comparing the success of a team with or without a certain quarterback. With Joe you can only speculate on how pivotal he is to the success of the team since for 5 years he hasn't missed a game. Reliability is a factor that Joe stands behind no one.




  12. #252

    Re: Jaws' QB Rankings on ESPN

    It's all way to circumstantial to argue anyway. For example, if you could have anyone IN THEIR PRIME to be on the Ravens who would it be? I'd say Elway. Dude was the empitome of clutch and guys like Joe and even Eli Manning are chasing his coat tails on that one.




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