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  1. #13

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.



    Defenses are more and more designed to stop pass heavy teams. If the Ravens establish a powerful running game it will force the defense to bring more defenders in the box. Pass rushers won't have their ears pinned back so they don't take themselves out of a running play. This will allow for more favorable conditions to pass.

    I wish I had stats, but my impression is that Torrey was drawing lots of double coverage last year. The simple math of 1 receiver getting 2 defenders has to free up someone to have a more favorable match up. Most teams can take away a weapon if that is their focus. The way Torrey can run away from defenders when he's getting man coverage should be feared, think Champ Bailey in the playoffs. With a strong running game, Joe's arm strength the speed we have a wide receiver, the offense can exploit what the defense gives them. Sticking a defender out on an island is done at the risk that the deep ball will tear the roof off of the defense.




  2. #14

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensNTerps View Post
    Joe Flacco isn't going to throw for 9.0 yards per attempt and 44 TDs to 0 INTs so those expecting the playoff performance to continue all year should probably cool their expectations
    Wait, what? The hell you say! I was counting on that.




  3. #15
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    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Point taken, but if you bump the number up to 0-2 Torrey had 10 games out of 19 (excluding the 2nd Cincy game). Pitta had 5. I'm not trying to just move the goalposts just for the sake of argument. Pitta also split time with Ed Dickson while Torrey Smith played virtually every snap last season outside of missing part of the Denver game due to injury. He still averaged only 3.1 receptions per game. Pitta averaged 3.8.

    The point is that Torrey is a player who was much more prone to disappearing from whole games or stretches of games, balancing that out by taking over games at times. That's the kind of player he is... boom or bust. He's not a Calvin Johnson or Brandon Marshall kind of player that can just be an entire passing game by himself. He needs some help, and we don't currently have any help for him, unless things really change in camp.
    I understand what you are saying, but perhaps the reason Torrey Smith "disappeared" from games was that the passing offense wasn't centered around him, like it is in Detroit with Calvin Johnson. (No, I'm not saying Smith is as good as Johnson). Torrey Smith, in all reality, was the #3 option for Flacco in the offense, behind Boldin and Pitta. So maybe it wasn't so much that he was inconsistent. I know he was targeted a lot in terms of numbers, but many of those were long shots down the field where the odds of completion are smaller, but the purpose (stretching the defense) is achieved. Now that his role looms larger, he might be a whole lot less "inconsistent", as you put it.

    But, yes, he needs help and the Ravens need to find it - either in camp or elsewhere.




  4. #16

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by HKusp View Post
    Anquan had several 0 to 2 catch, 0 TD games over his 3 years here.
    5 in 2010, 6 in 2011 and add in one with 1 catch and 1TD. And the ones Alien mentioned in 2012. That is just the regular season.

    I am going to beat this horse again, but it needs to be repeated, Anquan was a 65 catch, 4.33 TD a season guy while he was here. That may have changed had the Ravens had a better offensive coordinator, but the facts are the facts, Boldin's production while here, has been somewhat overstated by many. He wasn't irreplaceable. Could he have been an 80+ catch, 10 TD a season guy? Probably, but in the Cameron offense, he just wasn't. Neither was Pitta.
    You can stop beating the horse because your point is not a good one, unfortunately. Boldin's numbers don't seem so great without any context, so let's contextualize them. Bare volume numbers on their own don't tell the whole story.

    Sure he only caught 65 passes last year, which doesn't sound great, but Flacco only completed 317 passes--15th in the league. Boldin's reception total is 20% of the team reception total. His 921 yards were 24% of the team total. That's right on par with a low-end WR1, especially considering his depth of target and yards per catch were a lot higher than many other WR1s in the league. Add in Pitta's 20% of team receptions and 17.5% of team yards and you're talking about a passing game that has lost 40% effectiveness on the whole.

    I'm confident the passing offense won't ACTUALLY lose 40% effectiveness, but that is a HUGE hit. FWIW, Calvin Johnson was less than 40% of the Lions' passing game last year. Julio Jones and Tony Gonzalez were just over 40% of the Falcons' passing game last year. When controlled for the Ravens' historically low VOLUME passing the ball, losing Boldin and Pitta are exactly what they sound like--losing your #1 WR and your top-tier TE.




  5. #17
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    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    It's an overreaction to say that the passing game has met its demise. But it's just as much of an overreaction to say "no problem, next man up."

    Boldin and Pitta were the two best pass-catchers on our team. Torrey Smith is a nice player, but he is extremely inconsistent. You can't count on a guy who regularly posts 0 or 1 reception stat lines in 4 or 5 games a year to suddenly be the focus of your passing game. I expect him to have a good year, but if this offense is going to work we need proven threats running underneath of Torrey's deep speed. We lost both of the guys who really did that at a high level last year.

    Wasn't this board gleefully proclaiming the demise of the Pats from losing 2 of their 3 top targets last year in Hernandez and Welker? Now we've lost two players of comparable importance in our offense, AND we didn't make up any ground signing anybody like the Pats did with Danny Amendola.

    Signing Leach might be a good move if it allows Juszczyk to play plenty of a Pitta-esque H-Back role, but the team still has a big personnel problem at pass-catcher. Unfortunately, it's pretty unlikely that there's anybody on the FA market that's even worth pursuing, outside of maybe a big flyer on Austin Collie. Both of my proposed trade targets from earlier in the offseason, Jeremy Maclin and Golden Tate, are off the table now since Maclin is out for the year and Seattle won't part with Tate while Harvin's status is uncertain.
    Heap and Mason were two of the best pass catchers on the team until they weren't on the team. The Ravens lost productive players in Boldin and Pitta but not great players. This really is a next man up scenario. There just aren't any external options that make sense.

    Eli Manning has gone through a ton of receivers in his career and has found a way to keep on rolling. We all like to see Joe Flacco as an Eli Manning type of QB. He's certainly paid to be that type of QB. Now it's put up time and honestly with Caldwell I think he's up to the task.
    He Who Dares.....Wins




  6. #18

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    Heap and Mason were two of the best pass catchers on the team until they weren't on the team. The Ravens lost productive players in Boldin and Pitta but not great players. This really is a next man up scenario. There just aren't any external options that make sense.

    Eli Manning has gone through a ton of receivers in his career and has found a way to keep on rolling. We all like to see Joe Flacco as an Eli Manning type of QB. He's certainly paid to be that type of QB. Now it's put up time and honestly with Caldwell I think he's up to the task.
    I am not going to say that the Ravens passing game will flourish without Boldin and Pitta, but, as Gota said, we paid a guy elite QB money, it is his job (and Caldwell's) to make it effective, especially in crunch time.

    In my opinion, where the team really struggled last year during the season was on defense. And in that regards, there is every reason to think that it will be much improved and mean the difference in 2 or 3 wins over last year's team.




  7. #19

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    Heap and Mason were two of the best pass catchers on the team until they weren't on the team. The Ravens lost productive players in Boldin and Pitta but not great players. This really is a next man up scenario. There just aren't any external options that make sense.

    Eli Manning has gone through a ton of receivers in his career and has found a way to keep on rolling. We all like to see Joe Flacco as an Eli Manning type of QB. He's certainly paid to be that type of QB. Now it's put up time and honestly with Caldwell I think he's up to the task.
    And Mason got replaced by a big time, proven FA, and Heap was addressed/replaced by drafting 2 TE's in the early/middle rounds (hoping one or both panned out, and one did, and we'll see if both did). That is a far different scenario than what we are talking about here (assuming we make no further moves).

    The total production may not be much to make up, but the reliability (read: 3rd down receptions) could be a significant problem.

    I am trying to find a more comprehensive stat database, but this supports what I remember being the case while watching the games (and I think it would be more telling if we could see 3rd and >3):

    http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/l...e=NFL&rank=105




  8. #20

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    It's an overreaction to say that the passing game has met its demise. But it's just as much of an overreaction to say "no problem, next man up."
    This.




  9. #21

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    I am not going to say that the Ravens passing game will flourish without Boldin and Pitta, but, as Gota said, we paid a guy elite QB money, it is his job (and Caldwell's) to make it effective, especially in crunch time.
    It's preposterous to expect Joe and Caldwell to magically "make it effective" without the personnel to allow that to happen.




  10. #22

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    It's preposterous to expect Joe and Caldwell to magically "make it effective" without the personnel to allow that to happen.
    Perhaps, but I believe most here would say that the Patriots should have an effective passing offense... and I'd take our receiving corps over the one they'll most likely start the season with this year.




  11. #23

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by perryw9202 View Post
    Perhaps, but I believe most here would say that the Patriots should have an effective passing offense... and I'd take our receiving corps over the one they'll most likely start the season with this year.
    This. If Joe Flacco is worthy of his contract his play will make the WRs effective. Did Drew Brees have more "proven" WRs in his time in New Orleans? Hell no.

    If Flacco is worthy of his contract than his play will turn at least one of Thompson, Reed, Williams, Doss, Streeter or the Elon guy into a solid enough WR.




  12. #24

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensNTerps View Post
    This. If Joe Flacco is worthy of his contract his play will make the WRs effective. Did Drew Brees have more "proven" WRs in his time in New Orleans? Hell no.

    If Flacco is worthy of his contract than his play will turn at least one of Thompson, Reed, Williams, Doss, Streeter or the Elon guy into a solid enough WR.
    Baloney. First of all, Joe IS worthy of his contract. Second, NO QB has ever achieved elite status with crap WRs. NONE. Even going back to Johnny U. So this BS about putting it on Joe to turn garbage into stars is nonsense. And finally, Joe has ALREADY done more with mediocre WRs than any other QB in his grouping. Matty Meltdown has pro bowlers left and right and his stats are only marginally better than Joe's, and his post season success can't even compare. So the notion that Joe has something to prove when it comes to sub par WRs is absurd.




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