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  1. #25

    Re: Ravens' Top 3 Team Needs, 2014 Draft and Beyond



    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    We have Odell Beckham on the roster right now. His name is Deonte Thompson.


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    Uh...I don't think I agree with that.

    Thompson was having problems beating out a guy that got cut (Doss...although they resigned him). I mean I get that he got hurt, but he hasn't done anything in this league to make me think he is a quality number 3 or 4 so far...and he had all offseason to stake his name to that spot. It's great to talk about potential, but at some point you gotta see it.

    Marlon Brown showed that you can actually make some plays in year one and in camp.

    I think Beckham next year would have a bigger impact as a rookie than Thompson....just my opinion. Not saying Beckham is great...just that while I am intrigued by his speed, I'm in no way prepared to act like I'm ready to count on Thompson for anything other than some spot duty.


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    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  2. #26

    Re: Ravens' Top 3 Team Needs, 2014 Draft and Beyond

    I don't think reciever is such a big need at this point. They are catching what joe throws to them, and we've gotten good production out of young guys. The biggest issue on this team is the Oline not giving joe time and opening up holes in the running game. I'm sure a reciever will be taken, a slot reciever type who can return( I do not think JJ will be back). But we also need a TE who can work the middle of the field. Dickson is gone, furstenburg may not develop into anything special and who knows if pitta will return to form. Depending on where we pick regardless of position I want a playmaker that is best player available. This team still has a shot at the playoffs, and even if we do not make it to the playoffs we are way to talented to just tank the season. I see us picking at worst 18-20




  3. #27

    Re: Ravens' Top 3 Team Needs, 2014 Draft and Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    Uh...I don't think I agree with that.

    Thompson was having problems beating out a guy that got cut (Doss...although they resigned him). I mean I get that he got hurt, but he hasn't done anything in this league to make me think he is a quality number 3 or 4 so far...and he had all offseason to stake his name to that spot. It's great to talk about potential, but at some point you gotta see it.

    Marlon Brown showed that you can actually make some plays in year one and in camp.

    I think Beckham next year would have a bigger impact as a rookie than Thompson....just my opinion. Not saying Beckham is great...just that while I am intrigued by his speed, I'm in no way prepared to act like I'm ready to count on Thompson for anything other than some spot duty.


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    This. I had very high hopes for Deonte Thompson, but the kid can't see the field at all in a WR corps that has been as open as you'll ever see. After Jones got hurt Deonte could have risen all the way up to #2 on the DC if he was showing well in practice. Instead, he's still stuck at #6 and has never really moved higher.

    I think the kid is closer to not being on the team in 2014 than being a contributor, unfortunately. The thing that might save him will be his ability as a returner, but I'm certainly not passing up on a good WR because I have a good back-up KR and #6 WR.

    Quote Originally Posted by JCroUSAF View Post
    I don't think reciever is such a big need at this point. They are catching what joe throws to them, and we've gotten good production out of young guys. The biggest issue on this team is the Oline not giving joe time and opening up holes in the running game. I'm sure a reciever will be taken, a slot reciever type who can return( I do not think JJ will be back). But we also need a TE who can work the middle of the field. Dickson is gone, furstenburg may not develop into anything special and who knows if pitta will return to form. Depending on where we pick regardless of position I want a playmaker that is best player available. This team still has a shot at the playoffs, and even if we do not make it to the playoffs we are way to talented to just tank the season. I see us picking at worst 18-20
    Definitely agree about the OL and TE being more pressing needs than WR, but I don't know how much that really means. I've been back and forth on WR as a need during the season but at this point I see the position as a legit round 1 possibility. I think if Sammy Watkins or Mike Evans are available at #20 or so you've got to pull the trigger. I don't see an OL other than Matthews/Lewan being BPA over either of those guys and you don't take a TE at #20 overall unless he's Rob Gronkowski.

    If they re-sign Monroe they can bolster the OL with later picks. Same goes for Pitta and the TE spot. Torrey Smith has been great but what if his price tag becomes outrageous going into 2014? Marlon Brown has been a very, very pleasant surprise as well but he's more of a #3 WR who can't really beat man coverage on the outside. Jacoby is gone next year, Thompson has been a huge disappointment, and Doss is good depth but might be best in a #4 WR/PR role. Who knows about Mellette.

    If the offense continues to go to more spread, pass to set up the run looks, imagine how good they could be with Torrey Smith on one side and Sammy Watins on the other, with Marlon in the slot and Pitta at TE. Two burners on the outside and two dangerous players of the middle.




  4. #28

    Re: Ravens' Top 3 Team Needs, 2014 Draft and Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    This. I had very high hopes for Deonte Thompson, but the kid can't see the field at all in a WR corps that has been as open as you'll ever see. After Jones got hurt Deonte could have risen all the way up to #2 on the DC if he was showing well in practice. Instead, he's still stuck at #6 and has never really moved higher.

    I think the kid is closer to not being on the team in 2014 than being a contributor, unfortunately. The thing that might save him will be his ability as a returner, but I'm certainly not passing up on a good WR because I have a good back-up KR and #6 WR.




    Definitely agree about the OL and TE being more pressing needs than WR, but I don't know how much that really means. I've been back and forth on WR as a need during the season but at this point I see the position as a legit round 1 possibility. I think if Sammy Watkins or Mike Evans are available at #20 or so you've got to pull the trigger. I don't see an OL other than Matthews/Lewan being BPA over either of those guys and you don't take a TE at #20 overall unless he's Rob Gronkowski.

    If they re-sign Monroe they can bolster the OL with later picks. Same goes for Pitta and the TE spot. Torrey Smith has been great but what if his price tag becomes outrageous going into 2014? Marlon Brown has been a very, very pleasant surprise as well but he's more of a #3 WR who can't really beat man coverage on the outside. Jacoby is gone next year, Thompson has been a huge disappointment, and Doss is good depth but might be best in a #4 WR/PR role. Who knows about Mellette.

    If the offense continues to go to more spread, pass to set up the run looks, imagine how good they could be with Torrey Smith on one side and Sammy Watins on the other, with Marlon in the slot and Pitta at TE. Two burners on the outside and two dangerous players of the middle.
    You may be right, but I think the full context is that DT is underperforming in an offense that 1) doesn't know wtf it's doing, 2) doesn't know wtf it wants to do on, or 3) just can't get it done--on any given series. That may be lazy hyperbole on my part, but my general point is better reflected in how we use/don't use Marlon despite his top 10 TD-to-target rate.

    Sans JJ12 and Stoke, there will be a role for Deonte. I'd like to see him targeted more so that we can see what he's got.
    Back to the AFCCG we go. So get ready!

    Having fun talking football on Twitter @BigPlayReceiver




  5. #29

    Re: Ravens' Top 3 Team Needs, 2014 Draft and Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver View Post
    You may be right, but I think the full context is that DT is underperforming in an offense that 1) doesn't know wtf it's doing, 2) doesn't know wtf it wants to do on, or 3) just can't get it done--on any given series. That may be lazy hyperbole on my part, but my general point is better reflected in how we use/don't use Marlon despite his top 10 TD-to-target rate.

    Sans JJ12 and Stoke, there will be a role for Deonte. I'd like to see him targeted more so that we can see what he's got.
    I don't agree with that.

    Marlon Brown showed that you don't need to force feed snaps to see if a guy is good or not...and he shown despite this offense that he is a quality NFL receiver. Is he a legit #2 guy?...I don't know. But it didn't take him 2-3 years to show it...struggling to beat out mediocre guys on the depth chart.

    It does puzzle me how no other position on this team gets the patience from fans that our WRs do every single year...despite a poor track record of that patience being rewarded.




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    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  6. #30

    Re: Ravens' Top 3 Team Needs, 2014 Draft and Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    I don't agree with that.

    Marlon Brown showed that you don't need to force feed snaps to see if a guy is good or not...and he shown despite this offense that he is a quality NFL receiver. Is he a legit #2 guy?...I don't know. But it didn't take him 2-3 years to show it...struggling to beat out mediocre guys on the depth chart.
    That's not the way it went down though. Reed got cut, Doss was already out of favor, JJ (the Day 1 #2) and got hurt and DT got hurt in August. All of these cats were ahead of Marlon on the depth chart. Now did Marlon pull a "not-Dickson" and take complete advantage of his opportunity? Yes sirrrrr...but he didn't actually beat out anyone ahead of him.

    It does puzzle me how no other position on this team gets the patience from fans that our WRs do every single year...despite a poor track record of that patience being rewarded.
    DT came back to an established Marlon Brown and Doss 2.0 ahead of him on the depth chart. He only has 4% of all targets (in his six games played), but his 60% catch rate is not too shabby if it can be maintained over time.

    No one bangs the drum louder than me about what I think we should do about the WR (and TE) position(s) every spring. You'll find no patience on this subject with me. But even if we bring Mega and Cruz in here, we need dudes that can block and call the blocks upfront. There's waaaay too much uncertainty across the OL right now. My "fix the OL" drum is much larger and louder than my "gimme a stud WR/TE in the Draft" drum. So if that translates into yet another frikkin late-round/UDFA WR pick-up for us in '14 and keeping someone like DT around then I can live with it. IMO keeping #5 upright and healthy is the top priority.

    More so, there are seven games left and other than our worthless or likely-expensive UFA's, it's a bit too early IMO to be definitive on anyone's 2014 status. Roll the clock back 7 games and Jimmy Smith is still teetering on the bust fence. Let it play out.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD[/QUOTE]
    Back to the AFCCG we go. So get ready!

    Having fun talking football on Twitter @BigPlayReceiver




  7. #31

    Re: Ravens' Top 3 Team Needs, 2014 Draft and Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver View Post
    That's not the way it went down though. Reed got cut, Doss was already out of favor, JJ (the Day 1 #2) and got hurt and DT got hurt in August. All of these cats were ahead of Marlon on the depth chart. Now did Marlon pull a "not-Dickson" and take complete advantage of his opportunity? Yes sirrrrr...but he didn't actually beat out anyone ahead of him.
    So...how did he not beat out guys when by the first game he was actually starting? Doss was out of favor in large part because of Brown and Reed was made expendable by Brown. By the end of the 2nd preseason game, the coaches were saying they needed to give him opportunities with the starters because he was playing so well in games and practice. That completely sounds like a guy beating out Doss and Reed. Brown started camp below those guys...by the end of the 3rd game, he made those guys expendable. He forced the staff to give him a big opportunity...and he took advantage that the others didn't. That sounds to me like he "beat out" those guys ahead of him. DT has an injury excuse, but for him IMHO, he had a longer opportunity to stake claim to that 3rd spot and he didn't do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver View Post
    DT came back to an established Marlon Brown and Doss 2.0 ahead of him on the depth chart. He only has 4% of all targets (in his six games played), but his 60% catch rate is not too shabby if it can be maintained over time.

    No one bangs the drum louder than me about what I think we should do about the WR (and TE) position(s) every spring. You'll find no patience on this subject with me. But even if we bring Mega and Cruz in here, we need dudes that can block and call the blocks upfront. There's waaaay too much uncertainty across the OL right now. My "fix the OL" drum is much larger and louder than my "gimme a stud WR/TE in the Draft" drum. So if that translates into yet another frikkin late-round/UDFA WR pick-up for us in '14 and keeping someone like DT around then I can live with it. IMO keeping #5 upright and healthy is the top priority.

    More so, there are seven games left and other than our worthless or likely-expensive UFA's, it's a bit too early IMO to be definitive on anyone's 2014 status. Roll the clock back 7 games and Jimmy Smith is still teetering on the bust fence. Let it play out.


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    I am not saying we need a WR more than fixing the OL...but I also don't necessarily think that means we have to draft a lineman in round one or replace a bunch of guys. By far...by far our biggest problem is center, and there isn't any center worth what pick we're probably looking at in the first round...probably a mid round pick. Leach and I have been big proponents of signing a vet to at least give us competent play there and draft a center somewhere in the 2nd-4th round. IMHO, I expect KO and Yanda to actually be healthy next season which would be a massive upgrade, and I have a lot of confidence that given a full offseason of work at one spot, Wagner can handle RT. The key is re-signing Monroe.

    But I still think if a really good WR/TE is there or close to where we pick, it would be smart to take one.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  8. #32
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    Re: Ravens' Top 3 Team Needs, 2014 Draft and Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    Uh...I don't think I agree with that.

    Thompson was having problems beating out a guy that got cut (Doss...although they resigned him). I mean I get that he got hurt, but he hasn't done anything in this league to make me think he is a quality number 3 or 4 so far...and he had all offseason to stake his name to that spot. It's great to talk about potential, but at some point you gotta see it.

    Marlon Brown showed that you can actually make some plays in year one and in camp.

    I think Beckham next year would have a bigger impact as a rookie than Thompson....just my opinion. Not saying Beckham is great...just that while I am intrigued by his speed, I'm in no way prepared to act like I'm ready to count on Thompson for anything other than some spot duty.


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    I meant that their skill set is similar and if they want that kind of a player then they wouldn't have to use a draft pick on him.
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  9. #33

    Re: Ravens' Top 3 Team Needs, 2014 Draft and Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    So...how did he not beat out guys when by the first game he was actually starting? Doss was out of favor in large part because of Brown and Reed was made expendable by Brown. By the end of the 2nd preseason game, the coaches were saying they needed to give him opportunities with the starters because he was playing so well in games and practice. That completely sounds like a guy beating out Doss and Reed. Brown started camp below those guys...by the end of the 3rd game, he made those guys expendable. He forced the staff to give him a big opportunity...and he took advantage that the others didn't. That sounds to me like he "beat out" those guys ahead of him. DT has an injury excuse, but for him IMHO, he had a longer opportunity to stake claim to that 3rd spot and he didn't do it.
    Marlon was out-wide on the 1st play @ DEN, but was not on the field at all for the next two series IIRC. Call it a slap to JJ or some unseen gimmick to rattle the DEN defense, but only in the technical sense of the word did Marlon start that game. Both JJ and Stoke were on-pace to get far more snaps until JJ went down.

    I also think that Doss and Reed were made expendable by well, Doss and Reed. Doss looked like hell in the PS and in retrospect Reed never really had a chance to make the roster short of transforming into AJ Green. Also, I disagree that DT's longer opportunity was particularly meaningful with him being 4th or 5th in 2012. He was 4th behind Doss IIRC in the TB pre-season game. That was so not b/c of his performance, but b/c two returning starters, and the coaches' darling Doss were ahead of him. Harbs and JC had to load up Doss on snaps and targets before making a final decision on him and that's what they did. In retrospect, I think it's fair to say that with Doss' performance vs. TB, DT could have moved up a notch if he hadn't gone gimp in the same game.

    Generally, I think it's the wrong play to give up on a 2nd year guy with so many games and snaps yet to come play. Especially, when the position at-hand is WR. It's great that both are very cheap for 2014, but Marlon is clearly the better player right now, and I hope it finishes that way since he clearly has a much greater upside. Still, it's too early.
    Back to the AFCCG we go. So get ready!

    Having fun talking football on Twitter @BigPlayReceiver




  10. #34

    Re: Ravens' Top 3 Team Needs, 2014 Draft and Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver View Post
    Marlon was out-wide on the 1st play @ DEN, but was not on the field at all for the next two series IIRC. Call it a slap to JJ or some unseen gimmick to rattle the DEN defense, but only in the technical sense of the word did Marlon start that game. Both JJ and Stoke were on-pace to get far more snaps until JJ went down.

    I also think that Doss and Reed were made expendable by well, Doss and Reed. Doss looked like hell in the PS and in retrospect Reed never really had a chance to make the roster short of transforming into AJ Green. Also, I disagree that DT's longer opportunity was particularly meaningful with him being 4th or 5th in 2012. He was 4th behind Doss IIRC in the TB pre-season game. That was so not b/c of his performance, but b/c two returning starters, and the coaches' darling Doss were ahead of him. Harbs and JC had to load up Doss on snaps and targets before making a final decision on him and that's what they did. In retrospect, I think it's fair to say that with Doss' performance vs. TB, DT could have moved up a notch if he hadn't gone gimp in the same game.

    Generally, I think it's the wrong play to give up on a 2nd year guy with so many games and snaps yet to come play. Especially, when the position at-hand is WR. It's great that both are very cheap for 2014, but Marlon is clearly the better player right now, and I hope it finishes that way since he clearly has a much greater upside. Still, it's too early.
    He passed Doss and Reed. That isn't in dispute...whether you think it's more because they suck, or Brown is really good.

    That says he did in fact beat them out no matter how you want to slice it.

    DT during all of last year and all of the offseason did not.

    I don't see how it's a debate unless you simply refuse to acknowledge it.

    I'm not saying cut DT tomorrow...he will at minimum be in camp next year.

    But he will need to fight for his job...I see this team adding another WR by the end of day 2 and he'll have a hell of a battle on his hands with Mellete IMHO...he is far from a sure thing.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  11. #35

    Re: Ravens' Top 3 Team Needs, 2014 Draft and Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    He passed Doss and Reed. That isn't in dispute...whether you think it's more because they suck, or Brown is really good.

    That says he did in fact beat them out no matter how you want to slice it.

    DT during all of last year and all of the offseason did not.

    I don't see how it's a debate unless you simply refuse to acknowledge it.

    I'm not saying cut DT tomorrow...he will at minimum be in camp next year.

    But he will need to fight for his job...I see this team adding another WR by the end of day 2 and he'll have a hell of a battle on his hands with Mellete IMHO...he is far from a sure thing.

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    Of course not. No one debates facts. However, you've moved the goalposts since your original retort, which was not a fact, but an opinion/observation based upon a set of heavily contributing circumstances that you didn't acknowledge.
    Back to the AFCCG we go. So get ready!

    Having fun talking football on Twitter @BigPlayReceiver




  12. #36

    Re: Ravens' Top 3 Team Needs, 2014 Draft and Beyond

    As we get further and further down the stretch I believe my present read on the WR situation will prove correct. Doss offers some big-play capability as a slot/possession WR, but his hands and route-running are just not trustworthy enough to hand him the "starting" slot job (assuming we continue to play mostly 3-wide sets next year.) I've seen nothing from the rest of the WR corps that indicates we have a second outside-the-numbers threat beyond Torrey Smith--who has been great at times, but far too inconsistent to be a true #1 WR at this point.

    Marlon Brown is our slot receiver of the future if he stays healthy, but they still need another guy on the outside who defenses have to respect in all areas of the field. I'm lobbying hard for Sammy Watkins or Mike Evans in the 1st round if they're on the BPA list. I haven't really scouted WRs in this class all that well yet, but there's not many guys I'm excited about as "perimeter" WRs other than those 2.




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