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  1. #85
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?



    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post

    I am not sure if I can be more clear than that.
    A mutual problem, it seems.

    Anyway, feel free to have the last word. And have a good bye weekend!




  2. #86
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I doubt seriously that this "increased awareness" will include that people are are being dropped left and right from their private plans or that women's health choices are being seriously limited.
    No, the "increased awareness" will almost surely include telling people how to find out what the consequences are for them--which for some of them may be as you say. A campaign that's been made necessary by the amount of disinformation that's been spread in an effort to get people angry enough to boycott the program.
    If you think this ad campaign will be strictly informative in nature, I have a tunnel under the harbor I'd like to sell you.
    Have you seen any of the campaign? Didn't think so. But you're already in high dudgeon over what you "know" about it. Do you rush to judgement on the basis of no evidence like that in your job?

    (ETA: I have seen some non-Ravens health-exchange-related TV spots here in Maryland, and they're pretty innocuous. The only "flackery" is people [or actors representing people] saying things like "I got coverage I couldn't get before".)

    I think that Steve Bisciotti would not sign onto something that was pure flackery. You think differently? OK. How about we wait until we have some solid evidence to confirm or deny your assumptions before going ballistic?

    Now, I will agree that the GOP has been telling a ton of lies. But so have the Democrats and the President, the largest being "If you like your plan, you can keep it".
    Keep in mind that it's not the "gubmint" canceling plans or restricting provider networks, it's the insurance companies. Which they did on a regular basis before the ACA & would have done without it. I wonder how many of them are just using the ACA as a convenient scapegoat for actions they would have taken anyway.




  3. #87
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    Keep in mind that it's not the "gubmint" canceling plans or restricting provider networks, it's the insurance companies. Which they did on a regular basis before the ACA & would have done without it. I wonder how many of them are just using the ACA as a convenient scapegoat for actions they would have taken anyway.
    Ah, the big bad insurance companies. It most certainly is the "gubmint" canceling plans. The plans are being canceled because they do not comply with the law.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  4. #88
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Cactus View Post
    DOMA doesn't require you to sign up for something or get fined. ACA is definitely controversial, and I agree that a certain number of people aren't going to be thrilled to see its presence at the stadium. But there is a necessity to inform people about its existence and the obligations it places on them.

    If we agree that this is necessary, then clearly the Ravens are providing a public service by spreading the word. The remaining question is whether it makes business sense. I personally don't think it will effect the Ravens business prospects in even a miniscule way.
    DOMA is worse than a fine/tax in some people's minds because they view it as discrimination. So imagine if the Ravens promoted DOMA and "family values". I could argue it's a law so no need to get upset.

    Besides, if Obamacare is dependent upon NFL teams promoting it than that's just another bullet point for people that don't like it. The "public service" isn't needed. If it is needed, then how about a public service promoting roe vs wade. The Ravens could even provide the addesses of abortion clinics. Hey, it's a law and public service that people need. I'm sure there are more than one couple in the stands contemplating an abortion.

    Bottom line, IMO The Ravens should have stayed out of this promoting unpopular laws business.
    Last edited by ERey; 10-25-2013 at 06:37 PM.




  5. #89
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    No, the "increased awareness" will almost surely include telling people how to find out what the consequences are for them--which for some of them may be as you say. A campaign that's been made necessary by the amount of disinformation that's been spread in an effort to get people angry enough to boycott the program.Have you seen any of the campaign? Didn't think so. But you're already in high dudgeon over what you "know" about it. Do you rush to judgement on the basis of no evidence like that in your job?
    Interesting. I'll come back this (ignoring your desperate ad hominem attack)....

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    I think that Steve Bisciotti would not sign onto something that was pure flackery. You think differently? OK. How about we wait until we have some solid evidence to confirm or deny your assumptions before going ballistic?
    ... like right now. So you're free to speculate on the who, what and how of the ad campaign but when someone else does it they're in "high dudgeon" over it. Got it.

    So let me ask you the same question. Have YOU seen any of the campaign? Didn't think so, boychik.

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    Keep in mind that it's not the "gubmint" canceling plans or restricting provider networks, it's the insurance companies. Which they did on a regular basis before the ACA & would have done without it. I wonder how many of them are just using the ACA as a convenient scapegoat for actions they would have taken anyway.
    If anything, you have the talking points down.

    Take a look at the new laws. They're specifically targeted at insurance companies (you know, the ones that provide the polices the President said I can keep if I like it?) to get more people involved in Obamacare and not with a private entity.

    Straight money grab. Plain and simple.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  6. #90
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ERey View Post
    DOMA is worse than a fine/tax is some people's minds because they view it as discrimination. So imagine if the Ravens promoted DOMA and "family values". I could argue it's a law so no need to get upset.

    Besides, if Obamacare is dependent upon NFL teams promoting it than that's just another bullet point for people that don't like it. The "public service" isn't needed. If it is needed, then how about a public service promoting roe vs wade. The Ravens could even provide the addesses of abortion clinics. Hey, it's a law and public service that people need. I'm sure there are more than one couple in the stands contemplating an abortion.

    Bottom line, IMO The Ravens should have stayed out of this promoting unpopular laws business.


    And this illustrates the larger point. The topic is irrelevant but changing it shows the glaring hypocrisy.

    Change it from Obamacare to DOMA, concealed carry laws, etc and this dynamic changes for the supporters of the teams decision.

    We've already witnessed this when Harbs made very pro-Christian comments a while back. Some posters went nuts saying he should remain neutral, religion has no place in sports, yadda yadda yadda ....

    Now that the shoe is on the other foot and all of sudden tacit, public support of something is ok so long as it's something they agree with as well.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  7. #91

    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ERey View Post
    DOMA is worse than a fine/tax is some people's minds because they view it as discrimination. So imagine if the Ravens promoted DOMA and "family values". I could argue it's a law so no need to get upset.
    I think we're miscommunicating. This above seems to argue against the following position:
    "It's a law, therefore it is a public service to spread awareness."

    My position is:
    "Remaining ignorant of the provisions of this particular law may result in your receiving a fine. It's a public service to inform people so they can take action to avoid a fine should they wish to do so."

    Quote Originally Posted by ERey View Post
    Besides, if Obamacare is dependent upon NFL teams promoting it than that's just another bullet point for people that don't like it. The "public service" isn't needed.
    Not all services have to be needed. If I went around my neighborhood picking up trash I would consider that a public service, but I'd also contend that it's not absolutely necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by ERey View Post
    If it is needed, then how about a public service promoting roe vs wade. The Ravens could even provide the addesses of abortion clinics. Hey, it's a law and public service that people need. I'm sure there are more than one couple in the stands contemplating an abortion.
    This is similar in the sense that it's controversial. It is dissimilar in that it doesn't attempt to punish someone for inaction. ACA has a provision which fines someone for inaction. When a law like that is passed, I believe the government has an obligation to inform people so they have an opportunity to avoid punishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by ERey View Post
    Bottom line, IMO The Ravens should have stayed out of this promoting unpopular laws business.
    I can definitely sympathize. I just think the unique twist of the fine justifies an exception to this general approach.




  8. #92
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Cactus View Post
    I can definitely sympathize. I just think the unique twist of the fine justifies an exception to this general approach.
    Don't you mean tax?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  9. #93

    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Don't you mean tax?
    haha, nope! I'd say fine is definitely the more appropriate term ... not that I was choosing my words that thoughtfully.




  10. #94
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    They lost seats in a very gerrymandered House and lost seats in the Senate and lost the Presidential election. The 2012 election was not solely about the ACA of course. But to say that it was a minor issue in that election is false. The Republicans just shut down the government and threatened a default on US debt over their wish to defund Obamacare.
    Gerrymandering? If MD fairly mapped its districts we would have 3 instead of 1 Republican in the House.




  11. #95
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    The GOP just shut the government down and threatened a default on US debt if the ACA was not defunded.
    Nothing personal, but this is a complete misunderstanding of our nation's financial position.

    If the debt limit were not raised or a CR/budget passed the tax revenues coming in FAR AND EXCEED the debt payments that need to be made. Sure, other things would have to be shut down but debt, SS, Medicare, Medicaid and even military pay could continue to be paid from existing revenues. This is the administration's job (see president and his appointments), to manage the finances of of the government in these kind of situations.




  12. #96
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    Re: Ravens Make Costly Blunder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt1 View Post
    People can get bronze-level plans at very affordable rates. They can also get subsidies to help them pay for those plans or higher level plans if they have financial need. That is a tidbit that Fox News never mentions.
    It has been mentioned on Fox News ad nauseum. You have to actually watch it to make these kind of claims and you must not.

    Well, except the "affordable" part. This is an opinion. These affordable plans have massive deductibles and are high cost. That others are picking up much of the tab doesn't reduce the cost, it just transfers it.

    People are losing plans in droves they were promised they could keep. We are forced to buy a product we do not want, I would prefer an HSA with a high deductible and I do not need birth control or mental health coverage, thanks.

    Forcing people to do something and limiting their options in what they can do in that regard is not liberty or freedom, it is dictatorial.




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