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  1. #73

    Re: Flacco's Bad Habit



    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    You are contradicting yourself.

    Either the article "doesn't illustrate anything" (YOUR WORDS), or it does. It CLEARLY illustrates both are "struggling in 2013 relative to what we are used to" (YOUR WORDS), which was CLEARLY the premise of my comments.

    So which is it, does the article illustrate nothing or does it indeed illustrate they are struggling? You have said both, and thus have contradicted yourself.
    You are tripping up over the word "illustrate." Someone claiming something doesn't "illustrate" anything. Illustrate means provided with pictures or in this context provide with numbers or support. And no, the article doesn't illustrate a thing other than JLC has to produce articles every week for work, not pleasure, and Flacco-Ryan "hitched forever" comparisons can be a go-to topic, even if one has to stretch to make it work. To be fair, his article made more sense coming off week 9. Not so much now, which is when we are discussing things.

    No contradiction at all. The stats are clear, and not a person has argued against them, Ryan is having a worse year than last year. So is Flacco. Not what we are arguing, despite your attempt to claim otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    And WHEN did I ever claim equal degrees of struggling ??? WHEN??? Please show me WHERE. I said both have poor OLs, poor run games, and lost weapons, and both are struggling. Never did I say they struggled to equal degrees.
    You claimed both were "garbage." And you chose to use Ryan as comparison in the first place insinuating they were in the same boat. Struggling is obviously a relative term. Flacco is struggling hard, Ryan is struggling a bit. Which is why it doesn't make any sense to excuse Flacco's big struggles by saying, "hey look at this other guy struggling a bit." Which, again, is why you should have used Eli. He is struggling mightily, like Flacco.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    You can't even not contradict yourself. I'll stick to my premise, thanks.
    You can't even recognize when your arguments are addressed. Ryan is struggling to play well, and is playing decent/average. Flacco is struggling to play well/decent, and is playing poorly. Read that as many times as necessary to realize what we are actually talking about.

    Roethlisberger is also struggling like Ryan. While Eli is struggling like Flacco. Understand the difference?
    Last edited by Haloti92; 11-23-2013 at 10:22 PM.




  2. #74
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    Re: Flacco's Bad Habit

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    That doesn't illustrate anything. It starts with the point the two QBs are "linked" by circumstance, then attempts to find another "link" so the article has a point and JLC can submit some kind of required work product. And the "link" is tenuous. Both are 'struggling' whatever that means. But not equally.

    It also was written after Ryan's two worst games by far, and even so, he had 15 TDs and 10 INTs at that point. Flacco had come off of his 2nd and 4th best games, and at that point had 10 TDs and 9 INTs.

    Since then Ryan has 3 TDs and 2 INTs, and QB ratings of 84.5, 70.8 and 97.4, while Flacco got even worse with 3 TDs and 4 INTs, and QB ratings of 60.0 and 53.4. And this despite our O-line and running game playing better than at the time JLC wrote his piece.

    The similarities are: drafted at same time, paid same amount of money, and struggling in 2013 relative to what we are used to (and no one is disputing any of this)....but not struggling to equal degrees, or playing at equal levels. Especially on 11/23/2013 instead of 11/4/2013.

    Use Eli, trust me. And JLC would have also if his whole article was not predicated on the tired, old "forever hitched" argument.
    I don't think you understand that any of Ryan's numbers from the first 5-6 weeks of the season are irrelevant. If Flacco was playing with Jones and White, he'd have a 120+ QBR every season.

    PS: Ryan still has Gonzalez.

    Matt Ryan still has at any point this season had a considerably better supporting cast than Flacco. Just like he did last year, when he failed to get his superstacked team to the superbowl.




  3. #75

    Re: Flacco's Bad Habit

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    You are tripping up over the word "illustrate."
    No. I am tripping over your incompatible statements.

    Here is a short summary:
    I said both QBs are struggling because of similar unfortunate situations regarding OL, RB and pass catcher issues. I link an article supporting that EXACT premise, posted on CBS by Jason La Canfora (reputable source).

    You then say the article doesn't illustrate my point, but then say the article illustrates both are struggling. Which was my point. So clearly the article "illustrates" my point. This is clearly evident for all to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    No contradiction at all. The stats are clear, and not a person has argued against them, Ryan is having a worse year than last year. So is Flacco. Not what we are arguing, despite your attempt to claim otherwise.
    That is what we are arguing. Both are struggling due to similar issues with their team. When have my comments ever deviated from that simple point????????????

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    You claimed both were "garbage." And you chose to use Ryan as comparison in the first place insinuating they were in the same boat. Struggling is obviously a relative term. Flacco is struggling hard, Ryan is struggling a bit. Which is why it doesn't make any sense to excuse Flacco's big struggles by saying, "hey look at this other guy struggling a bit." Which, again, is why you should have used Eli. He is struggling mightily, like Flacco.
    I never set up baseline levels. You are now proposing a standard of struggling "hard" vs just "a bit"? Says who? You? What is "hard"? What is "a bit"??? Why should I adhere to YOUR parameters?

    I said Atlanta fans are saying the same things about Ryan as we are Flacco, and both QBs have similar OL, QB and pass catcher issues. The analogy was clearly directed to OL issues, RB issues, and pass catcher issues.

    I admitted "garbage" was mere hyperbole. I did not intend for "garbage" to carry the weight of some all encompassing term that required 100% statistical equivalency to result in valid comparisons. That is a ridiculous threshold to satisfy. No reasonable person would interpret use of that word as meaning equivalent performance. The reasonable interpretation is both are playing below expectation (albeit in a hyperbolic manner).

    Perhaps it is YOU getting "tripped up" on terminology semantics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    You can't even recognize when your arguments are addressed. Ryan is struggling to play great, and is playing decent/average. Flacco is struggling to play good/decent, and is playing poorly. Read that as many times as necessary to realize what we are actually talking about.

    Roethlisberger is also struggling like Ryan. While Eli is struggling like Flacco. Understand the difference?
    These are your thresholds. That is your spectrum of performance. Not mine. And I NEVER set up degrees of "struggling".

    I will point out common issues, just as I did from my initial premise.

    Flacco: poor OL, RB issues, loss Pitta/Boldin
    Ryan: poor OL, RB issues, loss Julio/Roddy
    Big Ben: poor OL, RB issues, loss Miller
    Eli: poor OL, RB issues

    It does not surprise me they have collectively "struggled", regardless of how much YOU think each one has "struggled" according to your scale of "struggling".

    Throw Kaepernick in too.

    Maybe you can craft a sliding scale of "struggling" so we can all know just how much you think QB X is "struggling" with respect to QB Y. I am sure you will list Flacco as the worst QB. All I did was discuss how fans in Atlanta are saying similar things about Ryan, and that Ryan has dealt with similar issues as Flacco.
    Last edited by bt12483; 11-23-2013 at 10:48 PM.




  4. #76

    Re: Flacco's Bad Habit

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleApocalypse37 View Post
    If Flacco was playing with Jones and White, he'd have a 120+ QBR every season.
    So I hear, but I am curious how you know this?

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleApocalypse37 View Post
    PS: Ryan still has Gonzalez.
    Yes. And if he were here, he would be 37 year old washed-up TE who "can't get separation." That is if he started putting up Dallas Clark numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleApocalypse37 View Post
    Matt Ryan still has at any point this season had a considerably better supporting cast than Flacco. Just like he did last year, when he failed to get his superstacked team to the superbowl.
    Debatable despite your insistence otherwise. Atlanta's defense last year was dubious at best. And the Ravens don't even sniff the SB if not for Flacco's supporting cast playing out of this world (along with Flacco) over the last 5 games. I would say the last 5 games, Flacco had the best "supporting cast" in the league. Airtight OL, WRs getting wide open and/or catching everything, KO returns for TDs, defense getting timely turnovers, and luck on our side.

    And again, and again, and again, it tells us nothing in terms of comparing the QBs. Nothing. Manning has a better "supporting cast" than Flacco. He also is a much better QB. If simply saying "better supporting cast" sufficed in trying to claim one QB was no different than another, then every QB in the league is as good as Manning.




  5. #77

    Re: Flacco's Bad Habit

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    You can't even recognize when your arguments are addressed. Ryan is struggling to play well, and is playing decent/average. Flacco is struggling to play well/decent, and is playing poorly. Read that as many times as necessary to realize what we are actually talking about.

    Roethlisberger is also struggling like Ryan. While Eli is struggling like Flacco. Understand the difference?
    NONE of the examples of teams you cited have anywhere NEAR the issues that the Ravens offense have. NO ONE has a fucking Castillo. NO ONE has a Gradkowski. NO ONE has the inept running game the Ravens have. NO ONE has a bum like Ed Dickson. NO ONE has as bad an OC as the Ravens, with the possible exception of Haley. NO ONE has the rag tag WRs that the Ravens have. So honestly...your comparisons and/or assessments mean nothing unless or until you factor in REALITY. There simply IS no comparison of the ridiculous offense of the Ravens to any other NFL team. Therefore it's impossible to single Joe out and compare him to any other QB because there's just no fair comparison WHEN YOU FACTOR IN EVERYTHING ELSE.




  6. #78

    Re: Flacco's Bad Habit

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    NONE of the examples of teams you cited have anywhere NEAR the issues that the Ravens offense have. NO ONE has a fucking Castillo. NO ONE has a Gradkowski. NO ONE has the inept running game the Ravens have. NO ONE has a bum like Ed Dickson. NO ONE has as bad an OC as the Ravens, with the possible exception of Haley. NO ONE has the rag tag WRs that the Ravens have. So honestly...your comparisons and/or assessments mean nothing unless or until you factor in REALITY. There simply IS no comparison of the ridiculous offense of the Ravens to any other NFL team.
    Naw how dare you make such a comment.

    Haloti92 is literally the "least" biased person here.

    I mean...he said so himself...so he must be right. He is always right, right? Sure carries himself that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    I may be the least biased guy on the forum...
    If he says so it is HAS to be true...right? We should all just accept that he is superior to us and everything he says carries more weight and is inherently more valid, if for no other reason than it came from the brain of Haloti92.




  7. #79

    Re: Flacco's Bad Habit

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    NONE of the examples of teams you cited have anywhere NEAR the issues that the Ravens offense have. NO ONE has a fucking Castillo. NO ONE has a Gradkowski. NO ONE has the inept running game the Ravens have. NO ONE has a bum like Ed Dickson. NO ONE has as bad an OC as the Ravens, with the possible exception of Haley. NO ONE has the rag tag WRs that the Ravens have. So honestly...your comparisons and/or assessments mean nothing unless or until you factor in REALITY. There simply IS no comparison of the ridiculous offense of the Ravens to any other NFL team.
    So... what? Let's fire Ozzie for bringing all these bums in here? And Harbaugh for hiring more coaching buddies? And all the scouts who said draft these guys?




  8. #80
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    Re: Flacco's Bad Habit

    This thread is getting WAYYYYY off track from the initial point.
    .
    .
    “When I think of a Baltimore Raven - we go in there, we take your lunch box, we take your sandwich, we take your juice box, we take your applesauce, and we take your spork and we break it. And we leave you with an empty lunch. That’s the Baltimore Raven way.” - Steve Smith Sr.


    Call me a Special Teams coach again. I dare you! I double dare you, MFer!




  9. #81
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    Re: Flacco's Bad Habit

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    So I hear, but I am curious how you know this?



    Yes. And if he were here, he would be 37 year old washed-up TE who "can't get separation." That is if he started putting up Dallas Clark numbers.



    Debatable despite your insistence otherwise. Atlanta's defense last year was dubious at best. And the Ravens don't even sniff the SB if not for Flacco's supporting cast playing out of this world (along with Flacco) over the last 5 games. I would say the last 5 games, Flacco had the best "supporting cast" in the league. Airtight OL, WRs getting wide open and/or catching everything, KO returns for TDs, defense getting timely turnovers, and luck on our side.

    And again, and again, and again, it tells us nothing in terms of comparing the QBs. Nothing. Manning has a better "supporting cast" than Flacco. He also is a much better QB. If simply saying "better supporting cast" sufficed in trying to claim one QB was no different than another, then every QB in the league is as good as Manning.


    Haha. "Caught everything!"

    You mean like, when Jacoby and Pitta dropped 3rd and 4th down conversions on back to back plays when Flacco was leading a game-tying touchdown drive the old-fashioned way against Denver? You know, the drops that would've ended the season if not for Flacco making the greatest throw in NFL history. (And before you scoff at that "hyperbole," dig deep in your mind to remember the several times I posted algebraic analysis of that throw.)

    Or when they "caught everything" like Pitta dropping the 3rd down conversion at the end of the superbowl to ice the game. Flacco was so clutch that his pass got tipped yet it STILL made it to the jersey number to win the game.

    Or when Boldin dropped a 30 yard pass in stride on the first offensive series of the second half?

    Or when McKinnie didn't block Smith on the next play.

    Or when Rice fumbled on the next drive, his 3rd of the playoffs?

    Watch the superbowl again. Pay particular attention to Flacco. You'll see that he had as good a game as any quarterback in NFL history. He was perfect the whole way through. Pretty much every single play he was either good, great, or spectacular. His offense crumbled around him in the second half, as did special teams, and defense to a degree. But he still made the plays. Ryan, on the other hand, despite his defense doing an amazing job in the second half he scored no points, and had two turnovers. One of the turnovers was a shotgun snap that hit him in the chest. He is a loser. There is no argument.

    Oh, and LOL at Ryan "struggling" a little bit.

    Since Julio went down:
    Beat the buccaneers (at home)
    Since then, his offenses have put up 13, 13, 10, 28, and 13 points. And that 28 points was garbage time points. (Against the Bucs)

    Oh but no, he's doing good.

    Unbelievable.

    By the way, did you really try brushing off Gonzalez with a comparison to Clark? Gonzalez is ten times better.




  10. #82

    Re: Flacco's Bad Habit

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    No. I am tripping over your incompatible statements.
    Still waiting for anything "incompatible." I won't hold my breath however.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Here is a short summary:
    I said both QBs are struggling because of similar unfortunate situations regarding OL, RB and pass catcher issues. I link an article supporting that EXACT premise, posted on CBS by Jason La Canfora (reputable source).
    You said both were playing like garbage. Fact. Ryan is not playing like garbage. Flacco could be argued to be playing like garbage.

    You chose Ryan for some reason out of all the other QBs in the league who are having a worse year this year than last. Why? Why not chose one much more similar? The only plausible explanation is that you think they are similar. They are not. For the reasons I have provided and you have ignored and been unable to address. Not similar. Bad analogy. What. We. Are. Discussing.

    As for JLC, I already addressed this. You attempting an Appeal to Authority fallacy is a futile effort. He isn't supplying trade or injury gossip. His reputation has nothing to do with anything. He isn't relying on sources. He is simply taking two QBs who are "forever linked" and ramming a semi-square peg into a round hole to get his paycheck for the week. He provided no numbers, no analysis, no illustration.

    And, it makes even less sense now than then.

    Are you going to make me repeat all of this again, for a third time, with your next post? I hope not. You have addressed none of it. And repeating what I am addressing as if I didn't address it doesn't count.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    You then say the article doesn't illustrate my point, but then say the article illustrates both are struggling. Which was my point. So clearly the article "illustrates" my point.
    No. No to "illustrate." No to the premise that we are debating whether Ryan is having a worse year than last year instead of debating whether it makes any sense to take a guy who is struggling X and using him to rationalize another guy's struggles of magnitude 3X. Especially when there are at least a few other QBs that might fit the bill.

    I am convinced you read JLC, accepted what he said on faith, didn't even look at the last few weeks, then made your post. Not that you made the post on your own and then found that article. JLC let you down, then. He was going for the 'hook' of "linked QBs," while you should have been going for a good example for your argument (Eli, heck, even Brady is better).

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    That is what we are arguing. Both are struggling due to similar issues with their team. When have my comments ever deviated from that simple point????????????
    Already addressed. Tired of repeating myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    I never set up baseline levels. You are now proposing a standard of struggling "hard" vs just "a bit"? Says who? You? What is "hard"? What is "a bit"??? Why should I adhere to YOUR parameters?
    Already addressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    I said Atlanta fans are saying the same things about Ryan as we are Flacco, and both QBs have similar OL, QB and pass catcher issues. The analogy was clearly directed to OL issues, RB issues, and pass catcher issues.
    Yes, and despite all the problems Ryan hasn't turned into a near-league worst QB. Which is why trying to use his situation in this argument makes no sense whatsoever. But I repeat myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    I admitted "garbage" was mere hyperbole. I did not intend for "garbage" to carry the weight of some all encompassing term that required 100% statistical equivalency to result in valid comparisons. That is a ridiculous threshold to satisfy. No reasonable person would interpret use of that word as meaning equivalent performance. The reasonable interpretation is both are playing below expectation.
    I never said 100% statistical equivalency. Straw man. I am saying that picking someone that isn't even the same ballpark is a waste of time. Implying their drop-offs are similar when they are not serves no purpose.

    It is almost as if you are trying to claim you were not defending Flacco's performance with a "look at Ryan, then same thing is happening to him" argument.

    They both "forgot how to play QB," yet Ryan is playing decently. They "regressed to pre-rookie year" whatever that means, yet Ryan isn't having a clear worst-of-career year. they are both playing like "garbage," well, one could be argued to be (though I wouldn't go that far, others might), but not two. The "two QBs have the exact same habits," yet one is playing a lot better than the other. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    Perhaps it is YOU getting hung up on terminology semantics.
    Nah. It is you. Re-read the thread. And maybe ask yourself what started our discussion. Hint: It was someone implying Flacco's struggles should be expected as long as we look at Ryan's 'struggles.' Except only a part of Flacco's struggles are explained by this. Flacco is struggling like Ryan and then some. Which is exactly the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    These are your thresholds. That is your spectrum of performance. Not mine. And I NEVER set up degrees of "struggling".
    You did, although it was unwittingly or you forgot you did. One or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    I will point out common issues, just as I did from my initial premise.

    Flacco: poor OL, RB issues, loss Pitta/Boldin
    Ryan: poor OL, RB issues, loss Julio/Roddy
    Big Ben: poor OL, RB issues, loss Miller
    Eli: poor OL, RB issues
    Yeah, and Rodgers loses Jennings, Cobb, Finley and Jones for games and has terrible OL and he doesn't struggle.

    So we know losing some players can affect a QB anywhere from not at all to a bit like Ryan and Roethlisberger to massively like Eli and Flacco. And? So? And why pick Ryan to try to make any point that is remotely relevant here?

    You are saying Joe is struggling because of "issues" out of his control. No one disputes that, including Tony. The argument you decided to take on, was one where you claim that ALL of Joe's struggles are a result of things out of his control, i.e. Joe isn't contributing (specifically with his 'bad habit'). And you for some inexplicable reason chose a QB who is not struggling anywhere close to the same degree as Joe to make your point? Have I got that right? It appears so.

    Quote Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post
    It does not surprise me they have collectively "struggled", regardless of how much YOU think each one has "struggled" according to your scale of "struggling".

    Throw Kaepernick in too.

    Maybe you can craft a sliding scale of "struggling" so we can all know just how much you think QB X is "struggling" with respect to QB Y. All I did was discuss how fans in Atlanta are saying similar things about Ryan, and that Ryan has dealt with similar issues as Flacco.
    Maybe you can just admit that you have massively moved the goalposts from claiming an equivalence in situations/results as a means to defend Joe from accusations he, himself, is partially responsible for his plight to now claiming you were just grabbing a random QB who lost a couple weapons and has a leaky OL.




  11. #83

    Re: Flacco's Bad Habit

    Haloti92: you lost the argument bro. Go to bed. You are the one that wiggled all around moving goalposts. I had a very simple premise that you mucked up in your attempt to slam flacco and prove how horrible you think he is playing.it is your MO. I get it. You aren't the smartest guy in the room. Give up. I bet you $1 more people agree with me than you with respect to who moved goalposts around. Stop trying to force your opinion down everyone's throat. I don't adhere to YOUR definitions. I don't follow your word. Don't try to tell ME what is good, bad or equal according to YOUR perspective. You are the one trying to force your degrees and thresholds upon people. Not me.




  12. #84
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    Re: Flacco's Bad Habit

    Hey HALOTI 92

    DO I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION?

    YOU'RE DOING THAT THING AGAIN WHERE YOU COMPLETELY IGNORE THE FACTS, so that you can keep saying the same thing.

    Ryan "struggling a bit"...

    SINCE Julio Jones got injured, which are the only games relevant in this discussion since Ryan started out the season with three freakazoids to throw to...

    He beat the awful Bucs at home, congrats.
    Since then, he has 5 touchdowns and 9 interceptions. Oh, and two of those were garbage time touchdowns. In the last 5 games, his offenses have scored 13, 10, 10, 6, and 13 non-garbage time points.

    He is struggling more now than Flacco ever has in his career, except for the very beginning of his rookie season.

    By the way, he still has a better offense surrounding him.




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