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  1. #85
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?



    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    That's nothing but hyperbole based off your inaccurate inference to the 10th Amendments use in the secession argument.

    It's a straw man position.
    How is my 10th amendment statement inaccurate? It says the powers not delegated to the federal government are reserved for the states or people. It does allow the tangents you tried to claim it didn't. The federal government does not have delegated to it the right to force states to remain in the union, unless you can find it.

    And again, not once have you addressed VA and NY, both BARELY ratifying and only doing so because they required the Constitution to allow the right to secede.

    You seem to think that might makes right and the Constitution is to be determined by armed conflict and not legal reasoning; otherwise why make the statement:
    Except the Civil War actually did happen, thus those statements and agreements back in the colonial times that allowed states to opt out of the new union were rendered null and void.




  2. #86
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Va ratified only after Madison made certain promises. They weren't the only states that barely ratified.

    Penn, NJ, Georgia and Conn barely signed as well and even then debate raged by Americans whether it should be ratified at all.

    http://www.lpusd.k12.ca.us/rm1/onlin...estav/1-3c.htm
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  3. #87
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    IMO every state has the "right" to secede. Or at the least try to secede. But once you join the Union, the Federal government will not allow you to secede. Either through the courts or military force.

    I recall part of the issue with the Civil War was that if the Federal government allowed the South to leave the Union, it would set a precedent. States would leave and join the Union for the smallest of issues. The Federal government didn't want North America to become like Europe. With countries boundaries constantly changing. So among the other issues, slavery, economics...sending a message to the other states that succession would not become an easy out just because we disagree. Part of Manifest Destiny was that this continent belong to us (1 Nation) by divine decreed. Again breaking away from the Old World mentality.

    That just how I see it.
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  4. #88
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    IMO every state has the "right" to secede. Or at the least try to secede. But once you join the Union, the Federal government will not allow you to secede. Either through the courts or military force.
    First off, you can only secede once you join, so apparently you don't think they have the right to secede. Or you believe the federal government will, like it has, violate the Constitution to force states to remain.

    States would leave and join the Union for the smallest of issues.
    Nonsense, to join the other states must approve by a super majority. States wouldn't be coming and going through a revolving door.

    European borders were constantly changing due to wars, so to stop that here we had a war? Changing borders had nothing to do with it. We changed borders continually by admitting states, why is it a big deal to change them for a state leaving?




  5. #89
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    First off, you can only secede once you join, so apparently you don't think they have the right to secede. Or you believe the federal government will, like it has, violate the Constitution to force states to remain.
    I meant if a state wanted to secede, the Federal government will try everything, legal or not, to stop said state from seceding.



    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Nonsense, to join the other states must approve by a super majority. States wouldn't be coming and going through a revolving door.

    European borders were constantly changing due to wars, so to stop that here we had a war? Changing borders had nothing to do with it. We changed borders continually by admitting states, why is it a big deal to change them for a state leaving?
    Calm down. I said it's just how I see. One man's slightly uninformed opinion. I didn't state it as fact.
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  6. #90
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    First off, you can only secede once you join, so apparently you don't think they have the right to secede. Or you believe the federal government will, like it has, violate the Constitution to force states to remain.



    Nonsense, to join the other states must approve by a super majority. States wouldn't be coming and going through a revolving door.

    European borders were constantly changing due to wars, so to stop that here we had a war? Changing borders had nothing to do with it. We changed borders continually by admitting states, why is it a big deal to change them for a state leaving?
    You repeating the same thing over again doesn't make it any closer to truth, especially given the hypocritical request of asking me for back up and providing none for your position.

    There's exactly two ways laws are made in this country -- statute and case law (i.e. common law). The secession question was solved via case law when the south surrendered at Appomattox. Period. It's now precedent whether you like it or not. The only way now for secession to be legal would be to write statute overriding common law.

    The absence of any secession language in the Constitution is meaningless. I know folks on my side of the political fence love to misinterpret this one for everything and nothing. It's a textualists position, one not shared by an overwhelming majority of the most conservative legal scholars and one not based in the Framers intent. There's a laundry list of things left out of the text of the Constitution. That doesn't mean it's an automatic default to the states for both opportunity or for statute.

    State law regarding secession became meaningless after the ratification of the Supremacy Clause. Read Federalist 44 (since you asked). It shows the intent that the 10th Amendment was never designed as a states rights absolute and talks about the need for the Federal Government to have supreme power over the states. Madison states "having the federal government subservient to various state constitutions would be an inversion of the principles of government, comparing it to having the brain subservient to limbs of the body".

    For example, a state cannot legally sue it's way out of the union. Who does the state sue in that case? The US Government? Well, it can't and that language is indeed in the Constitution. You can't sue the federal government without it's permission and it's never been granted. Not once.

    Militarily? Yeah good luck with that one.
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  7. #91
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    I saw a Texas bumper sticker the other day that said "secede" on it.
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  8. #92
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I saw a Texas bumper sticker the other day that said "secede" on it.
    I see them too. Though, there are two different versions. One has to do with actual secession and the other has to do with A&M defecting to the SEC. The later is by far the more popular of the two.
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  9. #93
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Greg has been posting since the original message boards, longer than anyone here and he posted on the original Ravens boards - Sunspot and Ravenstalk.com before forming his own board with Fanatic, Mista T,
    Bert and Paulie which is now Aaron's scout.com.

    Greg has always been noted as a constitutional authority along with 12th Raven over on scout who teaches.

    Greg is usually right on these things as he has been on this thread. Take it from someone who has gone
    head to head with him for over a decade.
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  10. #94
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    I don't know about being authority but I am really shocked that case law can be set on a battlefield.

    The ratifications of NY and VA as accepted trump anything else. That is what was ratified, it is what was agreed to.

    I guess if I sign a contract and then the other party decides to change it and beats the hell out of me then the contract is now settled to their view.

    By the way, I don't agree that case law settles a damn thing, another judge can always change "settled case law" which happens regularly. And no, case law is not settled on a battlefield. Beyond that, judges interpret law, they don't make it.




  11. #95
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    The ratifications of NY and VA as accepted trump anything else. That is what was ratified, it is what was agreed to.
    So was the Supremacy Clause.

    And I cannot find where NY and VA had a right to secede from the Union. What I am reading is that they reserved the right to form smaller states and had similar language along the lines of the 10th Amendment. Can you point me to something that shows they were allowed to leave? Because the way it's worded, its ambiguous at best and still doesn't trump the Supremacy Clause.

    Even if they had language about interstate secession, that all ended with Art IV, Sec III, Clause I, which states "New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress."

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    By the way, I don't agree that case law settles a damn thing, another judge can always change "settled case law" which happens regularly. And no, case law is not settled on a battlefield.
    Yes, case law is not settled on a battle field. It's settled after the battle is over, with Ex parte Milligan being the start of long list of case law settled after the Civil War. President Lincoln's evocation of the Habeus Corpus was also settled as unconstitutional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Beyond that, judges interpret law, they don't make it.
    Ok, your perspective is coming into focus now. I agree that was the way SCOTUS was intended. However, for good or bad, right or wrong, Marbury v. Madison changed that and SCOTUS affirmed their position as a co-equal branch of our Government.
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  12. #96
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    So was the Supremacy Clause.
    The Supremacy Clause is the provision in Article Six, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution that establishes the U.S. Constitution, federal statutes, and U.S. treaties as "the supreme law of the land"

    Please reference the place in the Constitution, statute or US treaty that denies secession. AAMOF, since the ratification was done with the ability to secede that would implicitly be part of the Constitution, which would override any statute or treaty.

    Even if they had language about interstate secession, that all ended with Art IV, Sec III, Clause I, which states "New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress."
    Have you read their ratifications and the legislature's passage? Beyond that, what Art IV, Sec III, Clause I involves secession? This was in the Constitution when ratified, so again it doesn't prevent secession.

    Yes, case law is not settled on a battle field. It's settled after the battle is over, with Ex parte Milligan being the start of long list of case law settled after the Civil War. President Lincoln's evocation of the Habeus Corpus was also settled as unconstitutional.
    None of which stated states could not secede.

    Ok, your perspective is coming into focus now. I agree that was the way SCOTUS was intended. However, for good or bad, right or wrong, Marbury v. Madison changed that and SCOTUS affirmed their position as a co-equal branch of our Government.
    I never claimed they were not co-equal, but they are not a legislative body with law making power, or at least should not be, especially since not elected.




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