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  1. #37
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?



    Thank uuuuuuuuuuuuuu.

    It was strange to throw racist charges up north. When the southern army was marching to Gettysburgh and they came across free black men Lee ordered them
    chained and marched back to the south like the ones they picked up in York, PA.

    Robert E. Lee was the real racist and practiced it, actually owning slaves and never freeing them til Lincoln made him. Even Washington freed his slaves although not until his death. It was in his will but he freed them long before the Civil War.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 06-11-2014 at 11:18 AM.
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  2. #38

    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quotes are fun!

    "I view the matter [Emancipation Proclamation] as a practical war measure, to be decided upon according to the advantages or disadvantages it may offer to the suppression of the rebellion."

    "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery."

    "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

    See, I quoted from Lincoln himself. You use Hollywood movies as a basis for your argument.
    This is a novel I was asked to proofread. The author is giving 10% of the profits to kidney research, which is a big deal in the Darb household. Fair warning; it's a fantasy novel, and the main characters are lesbians. It's three bucks on kindle from Amazon.http://www.amazon.com/WINDOWS-BROKEN...ken+fairy+tale




  3. #39

    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    As for a state's economy being "too small" to secede, it is all relative:

    http://dailybail.com/home/you-gotta-...world-gdp.html




  4. #40
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by darb72 View Post
    Quotes are fun!

    "I view the matter [Emancipation Proclamation] as a practical war measure, to be decided upon according to the advantages or disadvantages it may offer to the suppression of the rebellion."

    "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery."

    It's true. The main purpose was to save the nation and he suspended everyone's constitutional rights especially here in Maryland to achieve it. He surrounded the state house and kept them from voting to leave. Then he sent in General Butler the Butcher to enforce martial law to prevent other uprisings in Baltimore. His guns are still dug in on top of Federal Hill in Baltimore and could have leveled the entire city. Two countries went into Gettysburgh. One came out. Not yours.

    In the end he still freed the slaves and was happy for it.


    "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

    A lot of comments were made before his election and during his debate with Douglas in Charleston. He was backed into a corner and made concessions on points but not
    the issues which most the country agreed on. Later in his presidency he met with black leaders like Douglas and brought black soldiers into the Army and he got the 13th Amendment passed and gave them the
    right to vote.




    See, I quoted from Lincoln himself. You use Hollywood movies as a basis for your argument.
    But Speilberg was right.


    Like here and look how much trouble Lincoln had getting it passed. Like I said most of the country was vs it and you can't compare the 20th and 21st century quips to those of the 19th century.

    Context is everything.

    It was then that President Abraham Lincoln took an active role in pushing it through congress. He insisted that the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment be added to the Republican party platform for the upcoming presidential elections. He used all of his political skill and influence to convince additional democrats to support the amendments' passage. His efforts finally met with success, when the House passed the bill in January 1865 with a vote of 119-56. Finally, Lincoln supported those congressmen that insisted southern state legislatures must adopt the Thirteenth Amendment before their states would be allowed to return with full rights to Congress.
    The fact that Lincoln had difficulty in gaining passage of the amendment towards the closing months of the war and after his Emancipation Proclamation had been in effect 12 full months, is illustrative. There was still a reasonably large body of the northern people, or at least their elected representatives, that were either indifferent towards, or directly opposed to, freeing the slaves.



    http://www.greatamericanhistory.net/amendment.htm
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 06-11-2014 at 07:26 PM.
    Pic of a natural act: UBER RAVENS FAN AND HISTORIAN GURU. THE PAST IS NOT DEAD, IN FACT, IT IS NOT EVEN PAST.' WILLIAM FAULKNER.




  5. #41
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by darb72 View Post
    Quotes are fun!

    "I view the matter [Emancipation Proclamation] as a practical war measure, to be decided upon according to the advantages or disadvantages it may offer to the suppression of the rebellion."

    "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery."

    "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

    See, I quoted from Lincoln himself. You use Hollywood movies as a basis for your argument.
    It's pretty common knowledge in history circles that Lincoln position on slavery and race evolved over time so your quotes without any context are meaningless. While I agree he, like most politicians back then, were offering lip service in some manner and degree, to use these quotes as proof positive he's this raging racist is wholly inaccurate and devoid of even the slightest context to why he was saying those words.

    The first quote is taken way out of context in so much as he's talking about the EP and its effect on the war effort. That's just bad interpretation on your part.

    Ditto on that second quote, which was in a letter to an editor at the New York Tribune. You can read the full text here. The FULL statement Lincoln made is "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it"

    That last quote is from the Lincoln - Douglas debates. He would later say in that same debate "This declared indifference, but, as I must think, covert real zeal for the spread of slavery, I cannot but hate. I hate it because of the monstrous injustice of slavery itself. I hate it because it deprives our republican example of its just influence in the world—enables the enemies of free institutions, with plausibility, to taunt us as hypocrites—causes the real friends of freedom to doubt our sincerity, and especially because it forces so many really good men amongst ourselves into an open war with the very fundamental principles of civil liberty—criticizing the Declaration of Independence, and insisting that there is no right principle of action but self-interest"

    I am quite surprised this is your tactic here since you've always been one to use facts AND context.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  6. #42

    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Racial war maybe, civil war, no. But get enough lawyers involve and anything is possible. LOL




  7. #43
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    I always found it interesting that the emancipation proclamation was not applicable to states that were still part of the union; just southern states that had seceded.


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  8. #44

    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    It's pretty common knowledge in history circles that Lincoln position on slavery and race evolved over time so your quotes without any context are meaningless. While I agree he, like most politicians back then, were offering lip service in some manner and degree, to use these quotes as proof positive he's this raging racist is wholly inaccurate and devoid of even the slightest context to why he was saying those words.

    The first quote is taken way out of context in so much as he's talking about the EP and its effect on the war effort. That's just bad interpretation on your part.

    Ditto on that second quote, which was in a letter to an editor at the New York Tribune. You can read the full text here. The FULL statement Lincoln made is "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it"

    That last quote is from the Lincoln - Douglas debates. He would later say in that same debate "This declared indifference, but, as I must think, covert real zeal for the spread of slavery, I cannot but hate. I hate it because of the monstrous injustice of slavery itself. I hate it because it deprives our republican example of its just influence in the world—enables the enemies of free institutions, with plausibility, to taunt us as hypocrites—causes the real friends of freedom to doubt our sincerity, and especially because it forces so many really good men amongst ourselves into an open war with the very fundamental principles of civil liberty—criticizing the Declaration of Independence, and insisting that there is no right principle of action but self-interest"

    I am quite surprised this is your tactic here since you've always been one to use facts AND context.
    I have never argued that Lincoln wasn't staunchly anti-slavery. I said he was a racist. Thinking another race is inferior=racist.

    Y'all seem to keep bringing up "context of the times", so let me do likewise. People have been arguing that Tom Sawyer should be banned because of the n-bomb. In the context of the times, that was not a racist term. A few decades later during the Harlem Renaissance literary era from 1919-1940, "negro" was the politically correct term. Political correctness tends to shift and change over the years so what was fine becomes offensive. Tom Sawyer is not racist because the n-bomb was socially acceptable across all social strata during the time of its setting. Saying one race is inferior is racist no matter what era or context. Now if you wish to argue that nearly everybody was racist back then so it's no surprise Lincoln was too, then I'd have to agree.

    As for my first two quotes, those were in response to Trap saying Lincoln was a great guy because he ended slavery. While Lincoln was anti-slavery, for his political career it only interested him as a means to ending the war. The full quote you so helpfully provided shows that.
    This is a novel I was asked to proofread. The author is giving 10% of the profits to kidney research, which is a big deal in the Darb household. Fair warning; it's a fantasy novel, and the main characters are lesbians. It's three bucks on kindle from Amazon.http://www.amazon.com/WINDOWS-BROKEN...ken+fairy+tale




  9. #45
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I always found it interesting that the emancipation proclamation was not applicable to states that were still part of the union; just southern states that had seceded.


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  10. #46
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by darb72 View Post
    I have never argued that Lincoln wasn't staunchly anti-slavery. I said he was a racist. Thinking another race is inferior=racist.

    Y'all seem to keep bringing up "context of the times", so let me do likewise. People have been arguing that Tom Sawyer should be banned because of the n-bomb. In the context of the times, that was not a racist term. A few decades later during the Harlem Renaissance literary era from 1919-1940, "negro" was the politically correct term. Political correctness tends to shift and change over the years so what was fine becomes offensive. Tom Sawyer is not racist because the n-bomb was socially acceptable across all social strata during the time of its setting. Saying one race is inferior is racist no matter what era or context. Now if you wish to argue that nearly everybody was racist back then so it's no surprise Lincoln was too, then I'd have to agree.

    As for my first two quotes, those were in response to Trap saying Lincoln was a great guy because he ended slavery. While Lincoln was anti-slavery, for his political career it only interested him as a means to ending the war. The full quote you so helpfully provided shows that.
    But you forget my link. He gave them the right to vote and was solely responsible for pushing the 13th amendment thru and the war was all but won. If he had those strong racist sentiments he wouldn't have done that. Nobody in the country could have done that. Nobody. He met with Douglas and other black leaders and did the right thing. Any traces of racism in him were gone. Again, you took things out of context and he wasn't nearly as bad as you painted him out to be. He never had slaves flogged them like Lee, Wash, and Andy Jackson who was for keeping the country together also, even though he owned about 600 slaves. Lincoln was no where the racist that those dudes or your ancestors were and they are all considered good men by history.

    My family fought for Lee. They're from Baltimore and probably took part during the riots on Pratt St (they lived down there and up Wilkens Ave) when Union soldiers marched down to the Camden train station where Camden Yards is. About a dozen citizens were killed and injured. Thats when the war really started. That was the first blood. Nobody died at Ft Sumpter except one soldier the next day when some ordnance accidently exploded but that was after the fight. More citizens were killed in Baltimore but I don't know how I could have fought for slavery back then. I would have fought vs my own family to keep the country strong. It wasn't too smart for my ancestors to fight at Antietam and then devour the state including their own homes in Baltimore had they won. Not even Lee would do that to Va. And it's a civil war to be sure when fathers fight vs sons and brothers vs brothers and uncles vs nephews. BTW, the victory at Antietam paved the way for the Emancipation Proclamation.


    We all have our demons. You've seen mine in here and I asked God and the forum to forgive me. Times change. It hasn't been that long since you better not use the N-bomb anywhere in polite society. When I was a kid it was commonly used. No mas. Times change as people change and that's good and Lincoln was good and killed for it by a Southern officer and spy from right up the road here.

    And think about this. The south would have never suffered in the post war reconstruction era if you want to call it that. Lincoln wanted to forgive them and bring them back into the family but he died and his successors wanted to punish the south and it is still poor today with states like MIss, Arkansas and Alabama.

    Things would have been much better had Lincoln lived. Booth said he did it for his country but he royally screwed it. That's where the hate and racism is, not with Lincoln.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 06-12-2014 at 02:27 PM.
    Pic of a natural act: UBER RAVENS FAN AND HISTORIAN GURU. THE PAST IS NOT DEAD, IN FACT, IT IS NOT EVEN PAST.' WILLIAM FAULKNER.




  11. #47
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    As to why Lincoln applied the proclamation only to southern states:

    Even his advisors were against it.

    ___________________________________
    President Lincoln justified the Emancipation Proclamation as a war measure intended to cripple the Confederacy. Being careful to respect the limits of his authority, Lincoln applied the Emancipation Proclamation only to the Southern states in rebellion.

    See Abraham Lincoln's Draft of the Emancipation Proclamation
    _______________________________________




    http://www.civilwar.org/education/hi.../10-facts.html
    Pic of a natural act: UBER RAVENS FAN AND HISTORIAN GURU. THE PAST IS NOT DEAD, IN FACT, IT IS NOT EVEN PAST.' WILLIAM FAULKNER.




  12. #48
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    Re: Is another US Civil War Possible?

    Despite it's intention the Proclamation didn't free any slaves at the moment. The war still raged on. Dr. Tony Evans, black pastor of one of Dallas' largest diverse churches said on radio that blacks there don't celebrate their freedom til the Union Army rode into town.

    That's when they knew they were free and use that date every year for celebrations not the year the Proclamation was issued.
    Pic of a natural act: UBER RAVENS FAN AND HISTORIAN GURU. THE PAST IS NOT DEAD, IN FACT, IT IS NOT EVEN PAST.' WILLIAM FAULKNER.




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