Grade Troy Smith

[purplepoe]

Darb pretty much took my point and expanded on it more than I thought about doing. Even Mike Preston summed up my feelings about this.

I don't understand how you cannot correllate QB play to the play of the rest of the offense, especially when the evidence reaches out and smackes you in the back of the head repeatedly. It goes like this:

- Offensive line does its job, receivers get open and catch passes, running game is productive, QB plays well.

- Offensive line cannot block, running game not allowed to be productive, receivers drop passes, QB plays poorly.

Those who think the QB makes the OL play better need to come up with an excuse why Troy Smith couldn't make the OL look better Sunday.

The answer is simple. Its not the QB that is the issue. Troy Smith wasn't exactly that "breath of fresh air" was he?

Troy Smith didn't magically create a pocket that hasn't been there for the last 11 QB's before him.

Troy Smith didn't make JO and Mike Flynn make all of a sudden make blocks he hasn't made all year.

Troy Smith didn't magically make Willis McGahee run better and stop him from getting hit constantly behind the LOS.

Troy Smith didn't magically stop us from being in several 3rd and long situations.

Troy Smith didn't stop us from throwing a 3 yard pass on 3rd down with 7 yards to go.

PP, trying to say you can't compare a 5 year vet to a rookie is missing the point entirely. That 5 year vet has played in the same broken down, non-working system that the rookie was thrown into. And so the results are the same because despite the talents of both QB's, the offensive system is not built to take any advantage of their strengths.

No, instead we shoehorn every QB into the same system and then tell that QB to just manage the game and try not to lose.


The shame of it is that the mindset is that every QB we have had since Billick has been here sucked. Not the system, or the pieces around them. No, all our past QB's sucked.

Forget that three of them have been to pro-bowls prior to coming here.

Forget that one draft pick set NCAA passing records and was publically endorsed by Johnny Unitas.

Forget that one QB threw for over 4000 yards the very year before we picked him up.

No, they all sucked and QB play has nothing to do with the pieces around him.

Sorry, but there is zero evidence anyone can bring up and show right now to prove that too me.


Troy Smith is 0-1 right now. And he should never have been in that position to begin with. If he starts next week he'll be 0-2 and it will be totally unfair.

Good lord.

I say that I would expect and 5th year QB (no matter what "system" he's been in) to perform a little better than 5th round rookie making his first start on the road vs playoff team and it turns into this.

I get labled as someone who thinks Smith is the savior (when I've been clear that I don't think he should have made the team). And really, I don't need you insinuating that I can't see our offensive woes (i.e. smacked in the back of the head repeatedly). Spare me.

I've never said a good QB is some magic bullet. But a good QB would damn sure help this team.

Some of you can act like that's a crazy thought.

Me? I think it's perfectly reasonable.

PP

[Dade]

Darb pretty much took my point and expanded on it more than I thought about doing. Even Mike Preston summed up my feelings about this.

I don't understand how you cannot correllate QB play to the play of the rest of the offense, especially when the evidence reaches out and smackes you in the back of the head repeatedly. It goes like this:

- Offensive line does its job, receivers get open and catch passes, running game is productive, QB plays well.

- Offensive line cannot block, running game not allowed to be productive, receivers drop passes, QB plays poorly.

Those who think the QB makes the OL play better need to come up with an excuse why Troy Smith couldn't make the OL look better Sunday.

The answer is simple. Its not the QB that is the issue. Troy Smith wasn't exactly that "breath of fresh air" was he?

Troy Smith didn't magically create a pocket that hasn't been there for the last 11 QB's before him.

Troy Smith didn't make JO and Mike Flynn make all of a sudden make blocks he hasn't made all year.

Troy Smith didn't magically make Willis McGahee run better and stop him from getting hit constantly behind the LOS.

Troy Smith didn't magically stop us from being in several 3rd and long situations.

Troy Smith didn't stop us from throwing a 3 yard pass on 3rd down with 7 yards to go.

PP, trying to say you can't compare a 5 year vet to a rookie is missing the point entirely. That 5 year vet has played in the same broken down, non-working system that the rookie was thrown into. And so the results are the same because despite the talents of both QB's, the offensive system is not built to take any advantage of their strengths.

No, instead we shoehorn every QB into the same system and then tell that QB to just manage the game and try not to lose.


The shame of it is that the mindset is that every QB we have had since Billick has been here sucked. Not the system, or the pieces around them. No, all our past QB's sucked.

Forget that three of them have been to pro-bowls prior to coming here.

Forget that one draft pick set NCAA passing records and was publically endorsed by Johnny Unitas.

Forget that one QB threw for over 4000 yards the very year before we picked him up.

No, they all sucked and QB play has nothing to do with the pieces around him.

Sorry, but there is zero evidence anyone can bring up and show right now to prove that too me.


Troy Smith is 0-1 right now. And he should never have been in that position to begin with. If he starts next week he'll be 0-2 and it will be totally unfair.

BB is too stubborn to change the offense scheme to play to a QB strengthes. I still believe Boller would have have turned into a starter if BB would have built a O line that could protect him. When faced with pressure Boller does get happy feet and makes quick bad decisions. But when given time he's pretty damn good.

Same applies to Troy. Instead of 1st down run, 2nd down run, 3rd down seven step drop pass; how about more play action pass or roll outs. Troy is fast and can make more plays on the run than from the pocket. Until he learns how to play from the pocket don't expect him to be a pure pocket passer, i.e. Donovan McNabb.

No one is saying that one game made or broke Troy's NFL career. I think its okay to give a fair assessment of his proformance regardless of the conditions he faced. I hope he starts against Shitsburgh, and hopefully he learned from the mistakes he made Sunday, like holding onto the ball like it's a loaf of bread. He seems like a smart kid and has alot of upside. After watching him play I no longer think we need to draft a QB first round. We need depth at CB, a pass rushing DE, or a home run hitter in a WR.

[Dade]

Good lord.

I say that I would expect and 5th year QB (no matter what "system" he's been in) to perform a little better than 5th round rookie making his first start on the road vs playoff team and it turns into this.

I get labled as someone who thinks Smith is the savior (when I've been clear that I don't think he should have made the team). And really, I don't need you insinuating that I can't see our offensive woes (i.e. smacked in the back of the head repeatedly). Spare me.

I've never said a good QB is some magic bullet. But a good QB would damn sure help this team.

Some of you can act like that's a crazy thought.

Me? I think it's perfectly reasonable.

PP

Yes a good QB would help this team, but it's just painfully obivious that any QB, be it Peyton or Brady, will find little success in this system.

[ravenjoe]

Troy Smith wasn't exactly that "breath of fresh air" was he?

Imo, I think Troy Smith WAS a Breath of Fresh Air! I saw someone who looked 'comfortable' in the pocket (i.e. no 'happy' feet); sensed pressure; reacted instinctively; throws a 'nice' ball; and has a hell of a strong arm. Granted he made some mistakes; but, come on, this was his FIRST professional start against a playoff team. Yes, to me, Troy Smith demonstrated qualities that Steve McNair exhibited during most of last year.

[darb72]

"I say that I would expect and 5th year QB (no matter what "system" he's been in) to perform a little better than 5th round rookie making his first start on the road vs playoff team and it turns into this."

Actually I was going on the whole, "we haven't had a good QB" quote of yours. We haven't even had decent QB play from the 12 QBs and Stinger was wrong when he said three of them went to the Pro-Bowl. Five or six of them have gone to the Pro-Bowl. Dilfer, Grbac, Cunningham, Blake, McNair and I think Banks went before he got here though I may be wrong about that one.

Troy was going to make this team. Did he deserve it? Not sure to be honest, but we knew he would. The fact that he did and he looked exactly like every other QB we've started speaks volumes though. This system makes every QB look the same. They post the same stats, and they have the same problems.

[purplepoe]

Yes a good QB would help this team, but it's just painfully obivious that any QB, be it Peyton or Brady, will find little success in this system.

Really?

Have we had ANYTHING close to a QB like that?

Brian Billick did coordinate an offense that will hold the league record for points for about another week didn't he?

I remember a little "crystal ball" controversy that went on here for years.

Seems like now the shoe is on the other foot.

System or lack of good players?

Both?

Most likely.

So am I to believe from some of you that getting a new offense here is gonna make the players we have on offense better? Gonna stop the stupid penalties at crucial times? Gonna stop the piss poor decision making? Gonna stop shitty throws or bad drops?

You all wanna beat the system drum. That's fine.

I'll be in the drum section that believes we haven't had nearly enough talent on the offensive side of the ball. And haven't had it for years.

Just 3 months ago all I was hearing was how the WRs were open and our QB was a wussy and checked down. And how a QB with the stronger arm would make us explosive.

Now?

Not so much.

PP

[purplepoe]

"I say that I would expect and 5th year QB (no matter what "system" he's been in) to perform a little better than 5th round rookie making his first start on the road vs playoff team and it turns into this."

Actually I was going on the whole, "we haven't had a good QB" quote of yours. We haven't even had decent QB play from the 12 QBs and Stinger was wrong when he said three of them went to the Pro-Bowl. Five or six of them have gone to the Pro-Bowl. Dilfer, Grbac, Cunningham, Blake, McNair and I think Banks went before he got here though I may be wrong about that one.

Troy was going to make this team. Did he deserve it? Not sure to be honest, but we knew he would. The fact that he did and he looked exactly like every other QB we've started speaks volumes though. This system makes every QB look the same. They post the same stats, and they have the same problems.

Jonathan Ogden is going to the Pro Bowl this season.

You and I both know that using the Pro Bowl argument can be picked apart like a nice MD blue crab.

Banks never made it.

Blake made it once in 1995. 7 before coming here. And our 2002 team was GUTTED. Again, I go back to the talent on offense that Ozzie Newsome has given us.

Once again, Im not sure what you all expected from Smith on Sunday.

PP

[purplepoe]

BB is too stubborn to change the offense scheme to play to a QB strengthes. I still believe Boller would have have turned into a starter if BB would have built a O line that could protect him. When faced with pressure Boller does get happy feet and makes quick bad decisions. But when given time he's pretty damn good.

This is EXACTLY my point.

It's not Brian Billick's job to build an OL.

That's the job of Ozzie Newsome. Period.

He has the final say in all personel decisions.

I've grown tired of Billick for various reasons.

But it drives me nuts when people sit here and blame him for our personel.

When does Ozzie get some blame?

PP

[darb72]

Merry Christmas Poe.

I didn't think Boller being put in would make us more explosive. I just wanted a QB who could actually throw the ball 15 yards down field.

To me Boller and Smith are interchangeable, just like every other QB we've had here. Check the stats if you want to. You say it's because of the lack of talent on the offensive side, and I'm going to say that's a problem with the system. The Ravens have never put a high priority on the offensive line and that kills the QB. That is a part of the, "system".

Another part is that we play not to lose on the offensive side. You know that as well as I do. Our game plan is always, "(Random QBs Name) don't do anything stupid and hope our defense gets us in field-goal range." That is a part of the, "system".

Ok, I think I'm gonna go grab Christmas dinner. Merry Christmas folks.

[purplepoe]

Merry Christmas Poe.

I didn't think Boller being put in would make us more explosive. I just wanted a QB who could actually throw the ball 15 yards down field.

To me Boller and Smith are interchangeable, just like every other QB we've had here. Check the stats if you want to. You say it's because of the lack of talent on the offensive side, and I'm going to say that's a problem with the system. The Ravens have never put a high priority on the offensive line and that kills the QB. That is a part of the, "system".

Another part is that we play not to lose on the offensive side. You know that as well as I do. Our game plan is always, "(Random QBs Name) don't do anything stupid and hope our defense gets us in field-goal range." That is a part of the, "system".

Ok, I think I'm gonna go grab Christmas dinner. Merry Christmas folks.

Merry Christmas to you as well.

Lack of talent on the offensive side is part of the system to you?

Who do you blame for that?

PP

[darb72]

"Once again, Im not sure what you all expected from Smith on Sunday."

Same thing I expected when we signed McNair, drafted Boller, etc... That he would post sucky stats.

I think we're not in complete agreement about what the, "system", means. I think our inability to draft decent players on the offensive side of the ball is part of the system. You don't get an offense as terrible as ours from just one problem. The FO doesn't draft great talent, the play-calling is questionable at best, and the whole attitude of letting the defense win the games are all part of the system and huge parts of the problem.

[darb72]

I blame the entire organization for the lack of talent drafted on the offensive side of the ball. To this day I don't know why we drafted Travis Taylor. You never, ever, EVER draft Florida WRs. They suck.

I wasn't a huge fan of drafting Jamal either since we had Priest Holmes at that time. He wound up being decent but Priest was a better all around RB in my opinion. And yes, I said that at the time we drafted Jamal.

Ozzie gets the majority of the blame for drafting because that's his job. Still part of the system.

[purplepoe]

I blame the entire organization for the lack of talent drafted on the offensive side of the ball. To this day I don't know why we drafted Travis Taylor. You never, ever, EVER draft Florida WRs. They suck.

I wasn't a huge fan of drafting Jamal either since we had Priest Holmes at that time. He wound up being decent but Priest was a better all around RB in my opinion. And yes, I said that at the time we drafted Jamal.

Ozzie gets the majority of the blame for drafting because that's his job. Still part of the system.

Im gonna respond to both of your posts on this one.

First and foremost I expected Troy Smith to struggle because it was his first start and he's a 5th round rookie. That coupled with it being a road game, at possibly the hardest stadium for a road to play in, along with the fact that our best receiving threat was sidelined again all add up to a no win situation.

But my point is Ozzie really doesn't get much blame.

Examples of that can be found on this very thread and throughout every Ravens messageboard and on every radio show etc...

You get the "Billick drafted Boller" stuff yet Ozzie gets credit for drafting Ed Reed.

Billick gets roasted for Taylor (not by you) and Ozzie gets praise for Suggs.

I think you are right in that we have a different view of our "system". I basically take it (because it seems like it's this way on the board) as our offense on the field. Meaning Billick's offense. You are encompassing the whole organization as the system. Understood now.

We all want this offense to be better.

Im of the belief that it's much more a talent issue than an issue of the offensive system.

Seems like that's a ridiculous notion to some.

But I'll stand by my statement that you need the horses to run the race. And this team has not had nearly enough good horses.

PP

[HoustonRaven]

Getting back on topic, I just watched the game recap on iTunes.

Troy has pretty strong fundamentals in the pocket. His drop and delivery is very smooth. The ball is always high (sometimes higher than his shoulder) and he thankfully doesnt have a huge wind up like some QB's have.

I didnt see anything spectacular from this kid for his first start, but seeing confidence behind center is refreshing. Now will someone PLEASE draft linemen to protect the kid!

[purplepoe]

Getting back on topic, I just watched the game recap on iTunes.

Troy has pretty strong fundamentals in the pocket. His drop and delivery is very smooth. The ball is always high (sometimes higher than his shoulder) and he thankfully doesnt have a huge wind up like some QB's have.

I didnt see anything spectacular from this kid for his first start, but seeing confidence behind center is refreshing. Now will someone PLEASE draft linemen to protect the kid!

I got news for ya.

We've already got most of the OL for the future already on the team.

What position do you want us to draft on the OL?

I could see us drafting later in the draft for depth, but I seriously doubt you'll see an OLineman taken before the 4th round.

JMO.

PP

[StingerNLG]

Imo, I think Troy Smith WAS a Breath of Fresh Air! I saw someone who looked 'comfortable' in the pocket (i.e. no 'happy' feet); sensed pressure; reacted instinctively; throws a 'nice' ball; and has a hell of a strong arm. Granted he made some mistakes; but, come on, this was his FIRST professional start against a playoff team. Yes, to me, Troy Smith demonstrated qualities that Steve McNair exhibited during most of last year.

6 points Joe. Six points, two should-have-been-picks, one fumble, one fumble exchange.

Six points.

Offense never ran a single play in the redzone.

Offense took almost an entire half to cross the 50 yard line.

That is some stenchy fresh air.

[StingerNLG]

Good lord.

I say that I would expect and 5th year QB (no matter what "system" he's been in) to perform a little better than 5th round rookie making his first start on the road vs playoff team and it turns into this.

Yes, it turns into this. Because you are making the same rediculous and unrealistic claim that the problem is the QB.

Most people who are looking at this from the big picture angle seem to be in total agreement. You seem to be somewhere else on this.

I get labled as someone who thinks Smith is the savior (when I've been clear that I don't think he should have made the team). And really, I don't need you insinuating that I can't see our offensive woes (i.e. smacked in the back of the head repeatedly). Spare me.

Except yes.....I do. Because you don't see it or understand it. And if the difference between 12 QB's playing in this system and the team not really going anywhere doesn't show you, then nothing will.

To you, let's just draft another QB. Sure, that's the answer. Just getting another QB seems to have worked all this time, hasn't it?

Why don't you spare me this time PP? In fact you can save that "Good Lord", and "Spare me" bullshit you roll out everytime someone doesn't lockstep agree with everything you say. I never claimed you said Smith was the savior.

I've never said a good QB is some magic bullet. But a good QB would damn sure help this team.

Some of you can act like that's a crazy thought.

No, you are wrong. The thought that we haven't had a good QB here is crazy.

But you will continue to believe that some Brady/Manning QB here would be the answer.

Sorry, but no part of the last 9 years would even begin to convince me that is true.



BTW, our offensive line is FAR from set for the future. Adam Terry seems to be a question mark now, and so is Chris Chester. And that doesn't even matter because no one knows if JO is really going to retire yet, and Mike Flynn seems to want to come back another year. This OL hasn't been "set" all year, and it's still in flux until the old men step off the field and let the young guys play. And it doesn't appear our "line of the future" is going to play this Sunday either, as they haven't the last few weeks.

[highwater]

I got news for ya. We've already got most of the OL for the future already on the team.

I agree. I think the attitude of the FO is probably "Hey, we've actually spent some high draft picks on offensive linemen, so now it's time to get them some experience and let them grow up." And if they do think that, they have a point -- they ignored the OL for several straight years, at least through the draft, but recently they have tried to address it. Now, whether or not these guys work out remains to be seen, but I would be very surprised if they drafted an OL guy on Day One.

Besides, we have needs at other positions too. And while the pass protection has been dismal this year, I'm not ready to say that it's because the players all suck. A lot of them are backups, they're inexperienced, and could get better. SHOULD get better.

And Merry Christmas, everyone.

[festivus]

No, you are wrong. The thought that we haven't had a good QB here is crazy.

I agree! We've *had* a good QB! Coincidentally (or not), it was the same year we had an effective passing attack, and won a playoff game!

It's no coincidence we had a decent passing attack with some quarterbacks (Grbac, for some time with McNair), and not with others.

I am a big fan of the men who have played QB here, with the exception of Jeff Blake, who was a jackass, but only a couple have been here with the right personnel set to be effective. Others have not had the tools to compensate for deficiencies on the OL, or in the receiving corps, or both. Or the deficiencies were so overwhelming *no* quarterback could have overcome them.

This is actually exactly why I don't blame Billick - at least, exclusively - for our offensive futility over the years. Because there *have* been times when we had a decent offense, when we had the tools in place. But that's a story for another thread.

[danzor123]

Smith goes 22/36 315 yds 3TD's 0 INT 6 carries 72 yds 1TD, Ravens win
31-14 everyone will be posting in the Troy Smith Hero thread!