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  1. #49

    Re: Grade Troy Smith



    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    Billick has a son?


    And while I am thinking about it while people are talking about how much pocket presense Troy has, the fumble has been mysteriously forgotten. While we are talking about how much of a winner Troy is over Boller, the offense scored 6 points yesterday, and other than the TD throw never even touched the redzone.

    And while I blame the OL and receivers for yesterday, some of you out there would have skewered Boller for the same game.

    Its the hypocrisy I can never really figure out from some.
    Say what?

    I certainly wouldn't expect a 5 year vet who was a 1st round pick to play a game like a 5th round rookie would play.

    You're damn right I'd skewer Boller if he had a game like Smith had.

    Are you saying that Boller should not get more criticism than Smith at this point in their careers?

    Cmon Sting.

    PP




  2. #50

    Re: Grade Troy Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    BWAH! I can recall (probably from some of these same posters) the very same things said ABOUT Boller when so many were clamoring for him to start ahead of Redman. It is a shame those boards aren't archived somewhere.


    I am not judging him at all, except to say he looks eerily similar to Boller behind our OL and most QBs would. But this guy comes on here insulting other "football fans" and then says Marino didn't have a very good first game when I knew damn well he had.

    Then he drops this gem:

    2 TDs, no picks and a 117 rating is stellar.

    If he needs bus fare to Detroit I am sure we can scrape it together for him.
    Naw I'll stick around thx, I'm a Troy fan, always have been. My point is people want to bash or grade or whatever a player that has sat on the sidelines and see his team lose week after week. Finally gets a shot and you armchair QB's trash him after 1 game? LMAO Let me think here, oh yeah, 3 wins over Michigan, Notre Dame totally thrashed, um oh yeah not to mention Killing Texas at their home field. Stick to the topic, grade Troy Smith I'd say C+.
    Give the guy another start and I hope for the future of the Ravens, you are all wrong about Troy. " Fame away "




  3. #51

    Re: Grade Troy Smith

    You are damn right that is what I am saying PP.

    Look me in the monitor and with a straight face and no fingers crossed that the offense looked ANY different yesterday than it has with Boller in there. Tell me the offense played any better with Smith in there.

    That is the hypocrisy I am talking about. This offense is incapable of sustaining good QB play no matter who it is. And in 5 years with the way this offense is currently constructed and put out on the field Troy Smith would have the same marginal progress every year and lack of success.

    Anything else is a simple double standard. And I think deep down you agree with me, but just don't like Boller enough to not look at the entire picture.




  4. #52

    Re: Grade Troy Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by Raven Domination View Post
    Year CMP ATT YDS CMP% TD INT QB Rating
    Peyton Manning 1998 21 37 302 56.8 1 3 58.6

    Troy Smith 2007 16 33 199 48.5 1 0 79.6

    MOST rookie QB's don't look too good in their first games...even the future HOFer's. Point is...judging Smith on his first game is simply asinine and dumb. WTF were you expecting him to do? Throw 3 TDs?
    Peyton Manning's first game was in 1998. He went 21-37 with 302 yds, 1 TD, 3 INT's and a 58.6 rating (corrected above). In fact, he did not have even a 70 QB rating in a game until Week 7 and followed that performance with 3 straight sub-70 ratings. He played much better after about 10 games and ended up with a 71.3 rating for the year.




  5. #53

    Re: Grade Troy Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    You are damn right that is what I am saying PP.

    Look me in the monitor and with a straight face and no fingers crossed that the offense looked ANY different yesterday than it has with Boller in there. Tell me the offense played any better with Smith in there.

    That is the hypocrisy I am talking about. This offense is incapable of sustaining good QB play no matter who it is. And in 5 years with the way this offense is currently constructed and put out on the field Troy Smith would have the same marginal progress every year and lack of success.

    Anything else is a simple double standard. And I think deep down you agree with me, but just don't like Boller enough to not look at the entire picture.
    No, it didn't look any different. In fact, IMO it looked worse.

    And that's a major problem.

    The QB play has SUCKED.

    I fall on the side that we haven't hand very good QBs Stinger.

    Do you really think our "system" is that much different than many other "systems" in the NFL? You can blame the system for all the woes. Me? I think we've had shitty QBs and bad OL play. Period.

    You don't think a 5 year vet that was a first round pick shouldn't be able to perform better than a 5th round rookie making his first start on the road?

    It's not about "disliking" Boller. Im calling a spade a spade. The guy isn't good. Never has been good. And I've seen 5 years of it.

    I've seen ONE start from Troy Smith.

    Of course the offense didn't look any better with Smith. I didn't say it did.

    What I said was I wouldn't expect it to. However, I would expect Boller, at this stage in his career, to play better than Smith did yesterday.

    And I think he would've to be honest.

    Im a little confused at your response.

    My point is this.

    Boller, as a 5 year vet, should absolutely be able to perform better than Smith at this point. I certainly don't think Smith performed better than what Boller would've done.

    PP




  6. #54

    Re: Grade Troy Smith

    Ozzie has built offensive lines to run block, not pass block. As a result, our QBs struggle, as would whatever poor sap we draft to replace the current crop (which is why we shouldn't draft one - we have bigger needs.) Improve our offenSIEVE line, and we'll improve our QB, be he Smith, Boller, or someone else.
    Al




  7. Re: Grade Troy Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by OriAl View Post
    Ozzie has built offensive lines to run block, not pass block. As a result, our QBs struggle, as would whatever poor sap we draft to replace the current crop (which is why we shouldn't draft one - we have bigger needs.) Improve our offenSIEVE line, and we'll improve our QB, be he Smith, Boller, or someone else.
    Last edited by Tspot-D-Ravenator; 12-25-2007 at 12:33 AM.




  8. #56

    Re: Grade Troy Smith

    First off, I didn't see the game. We had Christmas at my moms and I honestly didn't feel like paying DirectTV 50 bucks to watch the Ravens get blasted. Made that mistake earlier this year.

    Secondly, it went off about like I figured it would. From what I've read here Smith looked bad just like every other QB we've had come down the pike, with the exception of two games every year where we look unstoppable. Smith may wind up being a HOF QB for all we know, but it won't happen in Baltimore.

    "Do you really think our "system" is that much different than many other "systems" in the NFL? You can blame the system for all the woes. Me? I think we've had shitty QBs and bad OL play. Period."

    List? Everybody loves list!

    -Tony Banks
    -Trent Dilfer
    -The kid from "Friday Night Lights" Texas (can't remember his name, but he beat Atlanta in '99)
    -The Water Buffalo
    -Elvis Grbac
    -Randall Cunningham
    -Steve McNair
    -Jeff Blake
    -Chris Redman
    -Kyle Boller
    -Anthony Wright
    -Troy Smith

    I forget anybody who's started for the Ravens during Billicks tenure?

    That's 12 starting QBs we've had. Cunningham is the only one to put up an 80 or higher QB rating and that was only for two games. Odds are that eventually we'd find a decent one. I'm not talking Pro-Bowl material here, I just mean one that can put up a mid-80s QB rating over six games.

    Would Boller have played better than Smith? Meh, probably given he's played longer, but not enough to win the game. All Ravens QBs, and I do mean all of them, play much worse on the road. I've done the research to prove it and most people on this forum have seen it.

    It's the system. Flat out, it's the SYSTEM. Would having Brady or Manning make a difference? Sure it would because they are two of the greatest QBs in NFL history. Would either of them be going to Pro-Bowls on a consistant basis or be considered one of the best in the league? Pro-Bowls I can see because their talent is undeniable but they wouldn't be the best in the league.

    Put one of the second tier QBs on our roster and they would become borderline starters like Jon Kitna. ToothlessBurger, Hasselbeck and Brees never sniff the Pro-Bowl in a Ravens uniform. Don't believe me, just look at McNair and Grbac.

    Einstein once said that insanity is repeating the same actions over and over, but expecting different results. Pretty good example of what we have here.

    -Banks and Dilfer suck, let's bring in a Pro-Bowl QB and change nothing else.
    -Grbac sucks, let's put in the home-grown talent we've let learn on the sidelines but change nothing else.
    -Redman sucks, so let's go with the strong armed Blake but change nothing else.
    -Blake and Redman suck so let's draft a strong-armed rookie and toss him in the fire but change nothing else.
    -Boller sucks so let's get a former NFL-MVP but change nothing else.
    -McNair sucks so let's go back to Boller after letting him learn but change nothing else.
    -Boller and McNair suck so let's put in a fifth round rookie who won the Heisman last year but change nothing else.
    -Troy Smith comes in and..... you guessed it, he sucked.

    We can do the same thing with OCs if you want, but I really hope my point has been made.

    The reason I didn't bash Boller is the same reason I'm not going to bash Smith. This system is a QB killer. Bollers stats suck just like Troys do. Just like (fill in any QB we've had). If nothing else changes, in five years the same people who were saying Boller would be our savior but now hate him and think Smith is going to be our savior (CrazyRaven, PurplePoe, Evade, etc...) are going to hate Troy Smith.

    Because we changed nothing else.
    This is a novel I was asked to proofread. The author is giving 10% of the profits to kidney research, which is a big deal in the Darb household. Fair warning; it's a fantasy novel, and the main characters are lesbians. It's three bucks on kindle from Amazon.http://www.amazon.com/WINDOWS-BROKEN...ken+fairy+tale




  9. #57

    Re: Grade Troy Smith





  10. #58

    Re: Grade Troy Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by darb72 View Post
    First off, I didn't see the game. We had Christmas at my moms and I honestly didn't feel like paying DirectTV 50 bucks to watch the Ravens get blasted. Made that mistake earlier this year.

    Secondly, it went off about like I figured it would. From what I've read here Smith looked bad just like every other QB we've had come down the pike, with the exception of two games every year where we look unstoppable. Smith may wind up being a HOF QB for all we know, but it won't happen in Baltimore.

    "Do you really think our "system" is that much different than many other "systems" in the NFL? You can blame the system for all the woes. Me? I think we've had shitty QBs and bad OL play. Period."

    List? Everybody loves list!

    -Tony Banks
    -Trent Dilfer
    -The kid from "Friday Night Lights" Texas (can't remember his name, but he beat Atlanta in '99)
    -The Water Buffalo
    -Elvis Grbac
    -Randall Cunningham
    -Steve McNair
    -Jeff Blake
    -Chris Redman
    -Kyle Boller
    -Anthony Wright
    -Troy Smith

    I forget anybody who's started for the Ravens during Billicks tenure?

    That's 12 starting QBs we've had. Cunningham is the only one to put up an 80 or higher QB rating and that was only for two games. Odds are that eventually we'd find a decent one. I'm not talking Pro-Bowl material here, I just mean one that can put up a mid-80s QB rating over six games.

    Would Boller have played better than Smith? Meh, probably given he's played longer, but not enough to win the game. All Ravens QBs, and I do mean all of them, play much worse on the road. I've done the research to prove it and most people on this forum have seen it.

    It's the system. Flat out, it's the SYSTEM. Would having Brady or Manning make a difference? Sure it would because they are two of the greatest QBs in NFL history. Would either of them be going to Pro-Bowls on a consistant basis or be considered one of the best in the league? Pro-Bowls I can see because their talent is undeniable but they wouldn't be the best in the league.

    Put one of the second tier QBs on our roster and they would become borderline starters like Jon Kitna. ToothlessBurger, Hasselbeck and Brees never sniff the Pro-Bowl in a Ravens uniform. Don't believe me, just look at McNair and Grbac.

    Einstein once said that insanity is repeating the same actions over and over, but expecting different results. Pretty good example of what we have here.

    -Banks and Dilfer suck, let's bring in a Pro-Bowl QB and change nothing else.
    -Grbac sucks, let's put in the home-grown talent we've let learn on the sidelines but change nothing else.
    -Redman sucks, so let's go with the strong armed Blake but change nothing else.
    -Blake and Redman suck so let's draft a strong-armed rookie and toss him in the fire but change nothing else.
    -Boller sucks so let's get a former NFL-MVP but change nothing else.
    -McNair sucks so let's go back to Boller after letting him learn but change nothing else.
    -Boller and McNair suck so let's put in a fifth round rookie who won the Heisman last year but change nothing else.
    -Troy Smith comes in and..... you guessed it, he sucked.

    We can do the same thing with OCs if you want, but I really hope my point has been made.

    The reason I didn't bash Boller is the same reason I'm not going to bash Smith. This system is a QB killer. Bollers stats suck just like Troys do. Just like (fill in any QB we've had). If nothing else changes, in five years the same people who were saying Boller would be our savior but now hate him and think Smith is going to be our savior (CrazyRaven, PurplePoe, Evade, etc...) are going to hate Troy Smith.

    Because we changed nothing else.
    First of all, regarding Smith. I didn't think the guy even earned the right to make the team.

    So you can save your "savior" stuff for someone else.

    My sole point was that I would expect a 5 year vet to perform better than a rookie 5th round pick in his first start. Is that really such a crazy thought? Again, Im pretty stunned that people are saying "Smith sucks too" because his first start was crappy. 1 start compared to 40? Cmon.

    Stoney Case is the guy you forgot on your list.

    I still stand by the fact that we haven't had a great QB on this roster since Billick came here.

    And I will absolutely put much of that blame on Ozzie Newsome. That along with the fact that he continually ignored pretty much the entire offensive side of the ball until recently has led us to where we are now.

    This thread is about Troy Smith, right?

    Of course he stunk yesterday. Hell, I would've expected him to suck with a full set of offensive players. On the road in Seattle? Good lord.

    PP




  11. #59

    Re: Grade Troy Smith

    Quote Originally Posted by darb72 View Post
    First off, I didn't see the game. We had Christmas at my moms and I honestly didn't feel like paying DirectTV 50 bucks to watch the Ravens get blasted. Made that mistake earlier this year.

    Secondly, it went off about like I figured it would. From what I've read here Smith looked bad just like every other QB we've had come down the pike, with the exception of two games every year where we look unstoppable. Smith may wind up being a HOF QB for all we know, but it won't happen in Baltimore.

    "Do you really think our "system" is that much different than many other "systems" in the NFL? You can blame the system for all the woes. Me? I think we've had shitty QBs and bad OL play. Period."

    List? Everybody loves list!

    -Tony Banks
    -Trent Dilfer
    -The kid from "Friday Night Lights" Texas (can't remember his name, but he beat Atlanta in '99)
    -The Water Buffalo
    -Elvis Grbac
    -Randall Cunningham
    -Steve McNair
    -Jeff Blake
    -Chris Redman
    -Kyle Boller
    -Anthony Wright
    -Troy Smith

    I forget anybody who's started for the Ravens during Billicks tenure?

    That's 12 starting QBs we've had. Cunningham is the only one to put up an 80 or higher QB rating and that was only for two games. Odds are that eventually we'd find a decent one. I'm not talking Pro-Bowl material here, I just mean one that can put up a mid-80s QB rating over six games.

    Would Boller have played better than Smith? Meh, probably given he's played longer, but not enough to win the game. All Ravens QBs, and I do mean all of them, play much worse on the road. I've done the research to prove it and most people on this forum have seen it.

    It's the system. Flat out, it's the SYSTEM. Would having Brady or Manning make a difference? Sure it would because they are two of the greatest QBs in NFL history. Would either of them be going to Pro-Bowls on a consistant basis or be considered one of the best in the league? Pro-Bowls I can see because their talent is undeniable but they wouldn't be the best in the league.

    Put one of the second tier QBs on our roster and they would become borderline starters like Jon Kitna. ToothlessBurger, Hasselbeck and Brees never sniff the Pro-Bowl in a Ravens uniform. Don't believe me, just look at McNair and Grbac.

    Einstein once said that insanity is repeating the same actions over and over, but expecting different results. Pretty good example of what we have here.

    -Banks and Dilfer suck, let's bring in a Pro-Bowl QB and change nothing else.
    -Grbac sucks, let's put in the home-grown talent we've let learn on the sidelines but change nothing else.
    -Redman sucks, so let's go with the strong armed Blake but change nothing else.
    -Blake and Redman suck so let's draft a strong-armed rookie and toss him in the fire but change nothing else.
    -Boller sucks so let's get a former NFL-MVP but change nothing else.
    -McNair sucks so let's go back to Boller after letting him learn but change nothing else.
    -Boller and McNair suck so let's put in a fifth round rookie who won the Heisman last year but change nothing else.
    -Troy Smith comes in and..... you guessed it, he sucked.

    We can do the same thing with OCs if you want, but I really hope my point has been made.

    The reason I didn't bash Boller is the same reason I'm not going to bash Smith. This system is a QB killer. Bollers stats suck just like Troys do. Just like (fill in any QB we've had). If nothing else changes, in five years the same people who were saying Boller would be our savior but now hate him and think Smith is going to be our savior (CrazyRaven, PurplePoe, Evade, etc...) are going to hate Troy Smith.

    Because we changed nothing else.




  12. #60

    Re: Grade Troy Smith

    Darb pretty much took my point and expanded on it more than I thought about doing. Even Mike Preston summed up my feelings about this.

    I don't understand how you cannot correllate QB play to the play of the rest of the offense, especially when the evidence reaches out and smackes you in the back of the head repeatedly. It goes like this:

    - Offensive line does its job, receivers get open and catch passes, running game is productive, QB plays well.

    - Offensive line cannot block, running game not allowed to be productive, receivers drop passes, QB plays poorly.

    Those who think the QB makes the OL play better need to come up with an excuse why Troy Smith couldn't make the OL look better Sunday.

    The answer is simple. Its not the QB that is the issue. Troy Smith wasn't exactly that "breath of fresh air" was he?

    Troy Smith didn't magically create a pocket that hasn't been there for the last 11 QB's before him.

    Troy Smith didn't make JO and Mike Flynn make all of a sudden make blocks he hasn't made all year.

    Troy Smith didn't magically make Willis McGahee run better and stop him from getting hit constantly behind the LOS.

    Troy Smith didn't magically stop us from being in several 3rd and long situations.

    Troy Smith didn't stop us from throwing a 3 yard pass on 3rd down with 7 yards to go.

    PP, trying to say you can't compare a 5 year vet to a rookie is missing the point entirely. That 5 year vet has played in the same broken down, non-working system that the rookie was thrown into. And so the results are the same because despite the talents of both QB's, the offensive system is not built to take any advantage of their strengths.

    No, instead we shoehorn every QB into the same system and then tell that QB to just manage the game and try not to lose.


    The shame of it is that the mindset is that every QB we have had since Billick has been here sucked. Not the system, or the pieces around them. No, all our past QB's sucked.

    Forget that three of them have been to pro-bowls prior to coming here.

    Forget that one draft pick set NCAA passing records and was publically endorsed by Johnny Unitas.

    Forget that one QB threw for over 4000 yards the very year before we picked him up.

    No, they all sucked and QB play has nothing to do with the pieces around him.

    Sorry, but there is zero evidence anyone can bring up and show right now to prove that too me.


    Troy Smith is 0-1 right now. And he should never have been in that position to begin with. If he starts next week he'll be 0-2 and it will be totally unfair.




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