Ravens 08 draft: Your thoughts....

[The Fanatic]

Why not an O linemen?

We could draft Jesus and wouldnt matter one bit if we cant protect him long term. Linemen are not sexy picks, I freely admit it. But with JO and others on the downside of their careers, we need to protect whomever is making the throws. That's the modle other teams have set forth (Pats, Colts, Steelers, Skins back in the 80's, etc.) and it works.

When building a battleship, you lay the armour before you install the guns!

We may have our differences here on this board, but I come from the same school of thought regarding this.

If you look at the more productive offenses in this league, they all have generally one thing in common....
Strong offensive lines...

We are extremely weak at offensive tackle right now, and quite frankly, have been that way for awhile.
To me, Yanda simply is not an NFL right tackle.
He can get by, but not ideal with his size.
He got the crap beat out of him by the higher quality defensive ends this year, and I don't see that changing much.

Lord only knows what Ogden is going to do, but even if he comes back (which I doubt), he is not a long term solution, and the drop off if he gets hurt is dramatic.
That basically leaves Terry who seems to do alright at LT, and Gaither with very little experience but could probably step in and play RT.

We have no depth after that.

We need a true pass rushing defnsive end!!

When Pryce went down, the entire defense changed dramatically.
Your secondarys best friend is the pass rush.
We got alot of tweener linebacker types, but not a great deal of depth at true defensive end.
With a pass rush, I think our secondary could survive if only one of our two starting DBs were to get hurt.
Running out guys that we ran out at the end of last year to start both sides was tragic, and we all saw it.

Not too often that both your starting DBs go down, so I'd roll the dice anticipating that you may only lose one.
McCallister rarely is injured.

With that being said, I'd still look for another quality DB for depth at minimum, but wouldn't make it the top priority.

QB is a priority, but I think if you fix up the O-line abit more you help out our current crop of QBs to be a little more successful.

I think you can grab a QB in the later rounds and still be successful if you pick the right guy.

Look at some of the teams that were in the post season, or were damn close this year, and who they have at QB, and where they were picked.

Tom Brady-5th round pick(obviously this doesn't happen very often, but it does happen)
Matt Hassleback-not sure where he was picked, but it wasn't real high IIRC.

Tony Romo-undrafted free agent.
Derrik Anderson-6th or 7th round.

That's enough examples right now I think, but they all have high quality offensive lines helping them be successful.

Now some of this will probably be fixed through free agency, but I don't think anymore then 1 or 2 spots at most.

The only way we take a QB at #8 is if it's Matt Ryan, and I doubt he'll be there, but one never knows.

I would definitely be looking to trade down and try and bilk some teams later first rounder and second round pick.

You can more then most likely get a QB like maybe Woodson or Dixon in the high second round or possibly a little later, and fill three holes we really need to fill with three picks in rounds 1 & 2.

With the later first round pick you get in a trade you can fill either the DE or OT spot, and fill the other with the second of 2 second round picks.

If we're lucky, we get a compensatory round 3 pick for one of the big three free agents we lost last year.

Fill in other needs with the later rounds and hope you hit on at least one which we seem to do fairly often.

I don't know, this is not my field of expertise, but it seems to work wonders for teams like the pats, cowboys, etc., and has proven to work well for s in past drafts.

Holding the #8 pick puts us in a good spot to do this if the right opportunity presents itself, and I would definitely go that way if it does.

[camdenyard]

The more I hear, the more I think we'll end up with a DE in the first round.

We need a big body in the middle too, Buddy Lee isn't getting any younger.

And yes, an OT and a CB are priorities too.

And I may be in the minority, but I'd like to see someone brought in to push Landry at safety. A Corey Harris type who can lay the wood.

And a QB...oh, my.

Ozzie, you better have your draft shoes on, you're gonna need 'em!

[jonboy79]

Come on people, the investment has been made on the OL... we can only get better there by lettign them play. Drafting a first round tackle not named LOng won't help us now. Terry is more then "alright" at LT, in fact he is significantly better there currently then Ogden. Yanda is simply NOT "Not an NFLTackle" He got blown up by Jason Tayor, one of the best DE's in the history of football, and last years DPOY... Did you watch the season before that game?
I love your list of late day QB's, care to share the list of the other 250 2nd day guys drafted during that time span? Round 6 QB's, which for some statistical anomoly come out very good. Abotu 1 in 5 will be successful, better then both the 4th and 5th rounds... and MUCH better then 7th and UDFA's... Romo didn't hit hte field for almost 4 years? We don't have that kind of time, we need to get better at the QB position, ASAP, and we need to hit on the guy. That to me is the new First day, or bust... IF we don't get one of the top handful of QB's i the draft we failed, MISERABLY.

[The Fanatic]

Come on people, the investment has been made on the OL... we can only get better there by lettign them play. Drafting a first round tackle not named LOng won't help us now. Terry is more then "alright" at LT, in fact he is significantly better there currently then Ogden. Yanda is simply NOT "Not an NFLTackle" He got blown up by Jason Tayor, one of the best DE's in the history of football, and last years DPOY... Did you watch the season before that game?
I love your list of late day QB's, care to share the list of the other 250 2nd day guys drafted during that time span? Round 6 QB's, which for some statistical anomoly come out very good. Abotu 1 in 5 will be successful, better then both the 4th and 5th rounds... and MUCH better then 7th and UDFA's... Romo didn't hit hte field for almost 4 years? We don't have that kind of time, we need to get better at the QB position, ASAP, and we need to hit on the guy. That to me is the new First day, or bust... IF we don't get one of the top handful of QB's i the draft we failed, MISERABLY.

You certainly are entitled to your opinion as we all are, that's what this place is for.

Regarding Yanda, his reach is what is in question here.
Did he perform adequate in alot of games?
Certainly but when you get to the next level (post season) he's basically playing nothing but the upper tier defensive ends.
Quite frankly, you'll have to play several to even get to the post season.
So by your logic, having somebody who is OK against a good deal of the league is OK, but having a key position on the O-line struggle protecting your QB against upper tier DEs is acceptable.

And now you want to put a first round pick behind that?

The QB position is by far probably the toughest to pick and hit.

I gave a few examples of guys picked in later rounds that have done well.
Nowhere did I say they are sure things in the latter stages of the draft as most are not.

You seem to think that we have to take a projected top tier QB in the early first round or this draft will be a failure.

Maybe you should go back and review how successful those picks have been.
You can start with one that's currently on our roster.

The fact remains that the majority of QBs picked in the draft don't pan out the way they are projected for a variety of reasons, but you want to blow the cap on a high first round QB pick simply because he's projected as being a first rounder that will do well.
Hell, alot of drafts none of the top QBs picked pan out at all.


Regardless of where they take one if they do at all, he won't see the field in any meaningful playing time until the earliest being 2009.

Exactly how long is your time line to reach success with your comment "We don't have that kind of time"?

The game is won in the trenches, and those soldiers need to be able to take on all battles in order for just about any QB to have success.

Yup, let's take a day one cap busting QB, put him back there and watch him get his brains busted out because our RT can't handle the elite pass rushers but is Ok with everybody else.

Been there, done that already for too many years.

[bmore finest]

Well i don't see us drafting a QB first. Ryan will be gone to ATL. Top 8 pick money, I'll say..... A WR. Or CB. But a Wr would help cam. And Troy or Kyle.

What if Troy do suceed, draft a late Qb this year, get a wr,cb, de/cb, qb,c/te, c/te, and a cb/lb. Just my thought.

As for the O line, i like to see a great line coach come in and work with the young guys. Let them gel. A center in day 2 and a vet in free agEncy. I'm all for that.

I just love this off season. A lot of things to focus on. WOw!! but can anyone see the wisdom of OZ, shocking everyone and get a WR. If we keep the 8th pick, where would you spend that money. good question OZZIE.

D-Will, Mark, MASon, and a top 8 wr.

[HoustonRaven]

Come on people, the investment has been made on the OL... we can only get better there by lettign them play. Drafting a first round tackle not named LOng won't help us now. Terry is more then "alright" at LT, in fact he is significantly better there currently then Ogden. Yanda is simply NOT "Not an NFLTackle" He got blown up by Jason Tayor, one of the best DE's in the history of football, and last years DPOY... Did you watch the season before that game?
I love your list of late day QB's, care to share the list of the other 250 2nd day guys drafted during that time span? Round 6 QB's, which for some statistical anomoly come out very good. Abotu 1 in 5 will be successful, better then both the 4th and 5th rounds... and MUCH better then 7th and UDFA's... Romo didn't hit hte field for almost 4 years? We don't have that kind of time, we need to get better at the QB position, ASAP, and we need to hit on the guy. That to me is the new First day, or bust... IF we don't get one of the top handful of QB's i the draft we failed, MISERABLY.

I dont doubt that we have made an investment in the O line already. My point is that investment has not lived up to their potential, IMO.

I say you keep making that investment until it shows promise. If anything, a high draft pick of an O linemen gives up depth in a position that was plagued with injuries last year without a huge cap hit a top tier QB would garner.

Im not saying we dont need help in other areas you mention. I agree with you there. What Im saying if we're starting fresh with a new system, QB search, etc, then it is crucial we have an effective line that gives good holes for McGahee AND provides our future QB with more time, allowing more options other then the dink-and-dunk crap we've seen for the past 4 years.

[Mista T]

Ozzie, you better have your draft shoes on, you're gonna need 'em!

We have needs aplenty but limited resources. I would like to see some whacking of expensive deadwood (cut/retire Ogden, Flynn, McNair, Rolle, even Mason) to clear some cap space and trading down to get more players in the 2nd and/or 3rd rounds. DE and CB should be our top priorities, via FA or a first day pick. I'm hoping that the combination of Yanda, Gaither & Terry would obviate the need for a first day OT selection. As to QB, I would like to see the Ravens select Woodson in the 2nd round or Flacco in the 3rd, if either were to fall that far.

[RavenScallywag]

would said "whacking of deadwood" help our cap space now? Those are big contracts, but my guess is they'd have some big cap hits this year (and possibly next year, depending on when we make the cuts).

I agree, I'd like to see us keep getting younger...Flynn should've been gone years ago, now it's just a matter of finding when it's most profitable. JO, while it'd be morally uplifting to see him keep going at it, he's just not reliable anymore, and I think he should take the high road and go out with this being his last Pro Bowl. McNair is moreso obvious, though I think I'd like his humbled attitude and might look to see if his body is healed up. Because his attitude might bring out the best in him.

Mason and Rolle I'm not so quick to say we cut. Until we have someone who can step up into Mason's role, if we dump him, our passing game becomes VERY vulnerable. Clayton and D-Wil are supposed to be big play threats, but they both had off years due to injuries and recoveries. DVD had a nice year, but I don't see him stepping up to be the dependant part of the passing game. Rolle, I'd like to see him reduce his salary and stay on...The guy showed this year he is a fighter and has the drive to stay in the NFL. That said, he has a big salary and is less valuable than CMac.

Also, since this is his last year on his contract, what do we do with Ray Lewis? Most are in agreement he's reaching the twilight of his career, though many can argue he still plays at a high level. Do we give him his last payday, or let him go sign somewhere else and keep focusing on the future? That also should be considered in our draft plans...if we trade down, maybe pick up a high 2nd round pick and look for Ray's successor.

[jonboy79]

Regarding Yanda, his reach is what is in question here.
Did he perform adequate in alot of games?
Certainly but when you get to the next level (post season) he's basically playing nothing but the upper tier defensive ends.
Quite frankly, you'll have to play several to even get to the post season.
So by your logic, having somebody who is OK against a good deal of the league is OK, but having a key position on the O-line struggle protecting your QB against upper tier DEs is acceptable.

And now you want to put a first round pick behind that?.

He was a rookie, that played well and had ONE poor game. That's what I think about Yanda, I think he will get better. That is all above and beyond the fact that the scheme will undoubtedly be better, and playing more alongside similar people will make them better, I see each and every player getting better on an individual basis. The Unit as a whole, has no choice but to get better.
And on top of that, I think throwing a "Cap Busting" first round pick into the mix doesn't help at all. If you actually want to improve the line today, then a Vet is the way to go. Trade for a Vet Center, if you truly want to imporve the line. I would not have an issue with that.

The QB position is by far probably the toughest to pick and hit.

I gave a few examples of guys picked in later rounds that have done well.
Nowhere did I say they are sure things in the latter stages of the draft as most are not.

You seem to think that we have to take a projected top tier QB in the early first round or this draft will be a failure.

Maybe you should go back and review how successful those picks have been.
You can start with one that's currently on our roster.

The fact remains that the majority of QBs picked in the draft don't pan out the way they are projected for a variety of reasons, but you want to blow the cap on a high first round QB pick simply because he's projected as being a first rounder that will do well.
Hell, alot of drafts none of the top QBs picked pan out at all.

Regardless of where they take one if they do at all, he won't see the field in any meaningful playing time until the earliest being 2009.

Exactly how long is your time line to reach success with your comment "We don't have that kind of time"?

The game is won in the trenches, and those soldiers need to be able to take on all battles in order for just about any QB to have success.

Yup, let's take a day one cap busting QB, put him back there and watch him get his brains busted out because our RT can't handle the elite pass rushers but is Ok with everybody else.

Been there, done that already for too many years.

I agree, and each round you wait it gets harder and harder... I'd like to be good in '09 or '10, not '15. If we are only going to draft late day guys, we won't be good until then. I without a doubt think the whole draft is a failure if we end up with a QB worse then John David Booty.
Boller is a big reason I think we need to do that again. Upper first rounders hit mroe then 60% of the time, we are due.
NO I want to take a QB early because we have a MAJOR dearth of talent at the most important position the game has. We have a top 10 pick which we hopefully won't have again, and Frankly, I think the top 2 guys Are as good of prospects as have been around in a few years. I know I liked Cutler more, but not Leinart or Young. Russell a bit more, Quinn less, Better then Smith and Rodgers...
Beyond that, I think Henne, Flacco, Booty, and Woodson, all have a chance. At least a better chance then Troy Smith. I don't want any QB drafted on the field until '09.

I agree the game is won in the trenches, that's why I've been so happy with the past few drafts. Again, if we can swing a trade for a solid Vet C, I'm in.

Your cap comments are pointless, the Cap number for anyone selected at the #8 pick will be about $2m this year, independant of position.

[Fanman]

as far as DEs go...Jared Allen of KC is a free agent. How many DEs come in from the draft and make a big impact....few?

But if a DE is the best player on the board at 8 they will prolly go down that road.

FM

[RavenScallywag]

Here's my take on taking a QB early...

So we took Boller in 2003. So 2004 and 2005 were "write-off years", in that we had to say "Ok, he hasn't been stellar, but he was only a rookie/second year player". 2006, we finally began to think about what to do...but, we grabbed Steve McNair through trade, problem solved. 2007, there was no reason to look at QB high up, because Steve was coming off a good year and Kyle even looked okay in backup roles.

This year, we're looking at 1) Steve McNair falling apart in 07, could return in 08, but even if he does, no one thinks he can really reclaim his former glory, 2) Kyle Boller getting his second shot....and failing again. You can say it was the OL, or the receivers, or injuries, but Kyle represents a hugh question mark again at best, in terms of being able to really lead this team, and 3) Troy Smith, a rookie who showed you he won't get obliterated under pressure. But that's about it, he showed us he has potential, but there's no way to tell what that potential is.

So, going into this draft, not only do we not know who starts for this team...we don't even know if the backups are capable of being starters if needed. Steve and Kyle both have one year left on their deals, so if we wanted to get a potential franchise QB, this would be the year. The kid can sit for a year under the tutelage of McNair. For those Troy Smith fans out there, there's nothing that says we don't give him a shot. Think Drew Brees/Philip Rivers. Plus, with us having a new HC and thinking this whole concept of "new blood, new message", I think getting another high round QB might be the ticket.

That said, I still stick by BPA. I would be fine waiting until 3rd or 4th round to grab a QB, given the timing, pick, and personality is right.

[StingerNLG]

I agree, and each round you wait it gets harder and harder... I'd like to be good in '09 or '10, not '15. If we are only going to draft late day guys, we won't be good until then. I without a doubt think the whole draft is a failure if we end up with a QB worse then John David Booty.

You realize almost noone can agree with you on this. Even those in the media, INCLUDING guys like Mel Kiper don't have us touching a QB in early going. Heck, Kiper has us taking a DT, which made me scratch my head.

A QB in the first round isn't happening. You may as well strike the champaigne bottle to that boat and let it sail.

Boller is a big reason I think we need to do that again. Upper first rounders hit mroe then 60% of the time, we are due.

More than 60%? I want to see that statistic play out. If you go by the 2003 draft alone, out of first 4 QB's taken (Palmer, Leftwich, Boller, Grossman), which one has really worked out for their respective clubs? Carson Palmer, and he's only gotten his team to the playoffs once. Other than that he's no better than an 8-8 QB

NO I want to take a QB early because we have a MAJOR dearth of talent at the most important position the game has.

I'll wait and let our new head coach and offensive coaches tell us that. I'm not ready to pat Troy Smith on the helmet just yet and say "Well son, at least your Heisman Trophy looks good on your mantle".

In the meantime what good is that top QB if you don't have a defense that can hold an opponent.

Maybe you should ask that same guy Carson Palmer what it's like to play on a team where they constantly lose despite his good QB play.

Right now I put rushing the passer WAY ahead of new QB. So far ahead you can stick Cornerback and Wide Receiver between them


As for the offensive line, I don't agree the problem is the talent not working out. I watched enough of Marshal Yanda to see that he's developing, but while he is he has been pretty solid. Adam Terry will be more than capable at LT (although of course not like JO). Ben Grubbs has already proven himself. That leaves Center and another guard spot to round out. As far as I am concerned what they need to do is politely tell JO and Mike Flynn it is time to retire gracefully, and then let the young line play EVERY GAME together this year and learn and grow.


I'm split between wanting to see a DE or a CB, either of which I think we could trade back for. McAlister and Rolle aren't going to play 16 games anymore, and we are going to need someone better than David Pittman and Derrick Martin covering their spots and eventually taking them over. On the other hand, we need another young stud on the line opposite Suggs to actually get at the passer next year. Our sacks and hurry percentages were just sorry considering the year before that.

[purplepoe]

You realize almost noone can agree with you on this. Even those in the media, INCLUDING guys like Mel Kiper don't have us touching a QB in early going. Heck, Kiper has us taking a DT, which made me scratch my head.

A QB in the first round isn't happening. You may as well strike the champaigne bottle to that boat and let it sail.

Alot has changed over the last 3 weeks.

Our whole staff is gonna gone (sans Rex as of now) so that means our whole draft could change.

There is no way Im buying that a QB in the first round is a dead issue.

There. We disagree on something
PP

[Dont Know]

Carson Palmer, and he's only gotten his team to the playoffs once. Other than that he's no better than an 8-8 QB
...
Maybe you should ask that same guy Carson Palmer what it's like to play on a team where they constantly lose despite his good QB play.

You make this point as well, but I wanna point out that I think he is a better than an 8-8 QB. He put up, 45 points (I think) vs the Browns. It's hard to blame him for losing that one.

On basically any other team (sans the really hopeless ones), if you put up 45 points on offense you win.

[StingerNLG]

Alot has changed over the last 3 weeks.

Our whole staff is gonna gone (sans Rex as of now) so that means our whole draft could change.

There is no way Im buying that a QB in the first round is a dead issue.

There. We disagree on something
PP

Hahah, I knew we could find something to disagree about!

Seriously though, the problem is twofold. To draft a QB in the first round means you need to cut one of the three we have. Steve McNair should be cut, and everyone wants Boller cut. But if I am reading things right, McNair will be here next year. And no one is cutting Boller. Smith isn't going anywhere either.

Top that with Cam Cameron already saying he was going to work out an offense that would play to the strengths of the QB's we already have here. Now, whether that means McNair, Boller, or Smith, we don't know yet. And honestly I am willing to give Harbaugh and Cameron the benefit of the doubt when they pick whichever guy it's gonna be.

Second, the defense is aging. No doubt about it. And we've seen this year that the backup CB's are worthless, and without two good DE's, so is our pass rush. We've lost games that the offense actually produced points on beyond expectations based on defensive collapses and having CB's that simply couldn't do the job.


If the new coaching staff decides the team needs to draft a first-round QB because McNair, Boller, and Smith aren't the answer TO THEM, then so be it. Again, I take what they offer a face value right now. I will also be extremely surprised if this happens because right now I can see higher needs than the QB position.

[StingerNLG]

You make this point as well, but I wanna point out that I think he is a better than an 8-8 QB. He put up, 45 points (I think) vs the Browns. It's hard to blame him for losing that one.

On basically any other team (sans the really hopeless ones), if you put up 45 points on offense you win.

Agreed, which is why I think we are better suited restocking our defense to improve it before anything else.

Palmer came into the NFL as advertised. But unfortunately he can't put that team on his back and lead them very far. And that is not all his fault either. I happen to like Carson Palmer, and like to watch him play. If he was available in that draft and the Ravens had a spot to take him in, we all know he'd be here. Whether he succeeds here or not is a different story, but no question we would have picked him over Boller AND Leftwich.

[jonboy79]

You realize almost noone can agree with you on this. Even those in the media, INCLUDING guys like Mel Kiper don't have us touching a QB in early going. Heck, Kiper has us taking a DT, which made me scratch my head.

A QB in the first round isn't happening. You may as well strike the champaigne bottle to that boat and let it sail.
.

OK if it's a dead issue, what kind of odds are you giving me? 10-1? I'll take that in a heartbeat... I'd say if either Brohm or Ryan are available at 8, the odds ARE we take them... We almost traded up for Quinn last year. Neither Boller nor McNair will be on the team in '09.

More than 60%? I want to see that statistic play out. If you go by the 2003 draft alone, out of first 4 QB's taken (Palmer, Leftwich, Boller, Grossman), which one has really worked out for their respective clubs? Carson Palmer, and he's only gotten his team to the playoffs once. Other than that he's no better than an 8-8 QB
.

First, you use one of the worst QB drafts ever, 2nd Boller and Grossman were hardly at the top of the first. So that's 1/2. Manning, Rivers and Big Ben were all hits. Alex Smith sucks. Leinart, Cutler and Young have added up to AT LEAST 2 solid starters. The last few drafts have been kind with top 15 or so QB's taken.

I'll wait and let our new head coach and offensive coaches tell us that. I'm not ready to pat Troy Smith on the helmet just yet and say "Well son, at least your Heisman Trophy looks good on your mantle".
.

I'm not there yet with Troy either... but I'm that way with Both Boller and McNair... I DO NOT want any part of either of these guys in '09. With this draft, my eye is firmly on '09 and beyond. This year, to me is already gone. Whatever we get from it, is a victory. New coach means new outlook. The idea is for Harbaugh to be here a decade. I'm thinking along those lines.
SO to me, IF Troy gets it with Cam Cameron's new offense and LIghts it up, and becomes our QBOTF, then we'll should have a solid option at Backup that could easily become a VERY valuable tade token. See the theoretically great, but realistcally horrible Matt Schaub trade. ATL got quite a load for a QB with potential. So if we moonwalk into a Gem with Smith then Great, but what if we don't? There would be nothing better for the Ravens then for Him to get into camp this year and light it up, show enogh to get McNair cut and Boller relegated to backup, push my new draftee to third, and become a Probowler on our way to a Super Bowl. I'm just trying to have a fallback option in case that doesn't happen. We need two QB's heading into '09 that we can count on. I hate FA retreads...

In the meantime what good is that top QB if you don't have a defense that can hold an opponent.
.

OH you mean one that despite injuries to pro bowlers at Both corner spots, our best pass rusher, one of the best defensive players ever, a handful of top backups, and bumps and bruises to other important players, yet still managed to finish 6th in Yards Allowed? Second in Rush Yards allowed, Sixth in Pass Yards Allowed? Damn, can't hold anyone. THere was quite a lot of scoring allowed. Steve McNair had plenty to do with that.

Maybe you should ask that same guy Carson Palmer what it's like to play on a team where they constantly lose despite his good QB play.

Right now I put rushing the passer WAY ahead of new QB. So far ahead you can stick Cornerback and Wide Receiver between them
.

Cincy has No Defense.
When Healthy, we have a pair of the best Bookends in football. Same can be said of our pair of Corners. We have 3 reasonable NEL starting wr's. We certainly lack an Elite game changing receiver, and if there were a Calvin Johnson, Braylon Edwards, or even Larry FItzgerald type player I'd be with you. But there are no top 10 WR's in this class. Chris Long would be an instant pick, Calais Campbell wouldn't be a horrible pick, even as depth options. Leodis Mckelvin, MIke Jenkins, and Aqib Talib all wouldn't be horrible either, but the point is, we can get high quality prospects at those positions later in the day as well. Brohm and Ryan, IMO, are a fair bit better then all other QB's/ The next 5 are a SERIOUS step up from everyone else. After the 7 elite prospects, all are longshots of Smith's level or worse. I don't want to go into '09 with tow recent day 2 QB's. I've never seen a team do that.

As for the offensive line, I don't agree the problem is the talent not working out. I watched enough of Marshal Yanda to see that he's developing, but while he is he has been pretty solid. Adam Terry will be more than capable at LT (although of course not like JO). Ben Grubbs has already proven himself. That leaves Center and another guard spot to round out. As far as I am concerned what they need to do is politely tell JO and Mike Flynn it is time to retire gracefully, and then let the young line play EVERY GAME together this year and learn and grow.
.

We finally agree... The talent is there, it needs to be coached up, seasoned and comfortable as a unit. I'm not opposed to Flynn as the cagey Vet on the sidelines, his contract isn't Huge. JO has no place on the newstyle Ravens. IMO, if an upgrade is to be made, it would be trading a late day pick for Vet Center to fill out the line, but I'm more then ready to walk into 08 with Chester penciled in as the starter. Trial by Fire...

I'm split between wanting to see a DE or a CB, either of which I think we could trade back for. McAlister and Rolle aren't going to play 16 games anymore, and we are going to need someone better than David Pittman and Derrick Martin covering their spots and eventually taking them over. On the other hand, we need another young stud on the line opposite Suggs to actually get at the passer next year. Our sacks and hurry percentages were just sorry considering the year before that.

I think those are definately the 2nd and 3rd most importnat needs. They should both be drafted by round 4 or 5... I thinkt he top of the 2nd will provide GEREAT value at CB and our comp third will hopefully yield a DE, WR or some other potential impact player.
If For example, someone trades ahead of us and snags Brohm, with Ryan gone. I do not advise reaching for a QB then. If a trade back is unable to be made, then I would pick Ellis, or Calias Campbell. I would then really hope to be able to stay pat at 39 and select Henne, and then look for scraps at CB on day 2... Martin and Pittman have some potential IMO. CMAC and Rolle are much more then capable when healthy, and day 1 CB's, when drafted properly, are Plug and Play almost to the level of RB's. If we really get burned out, CMAC and Rolle both end their career this season, and Martina dn Pittman both stink again, then next year we'll draft Corners with both day 1 picks and have a fairly solid seconday by week 4.

[StingerNLG]

OK if it's a dead issue, what kind of odds are you giving me? 10-1? I'll take that in a heartbeat... I'd say if either Brohm or Ryan are available at 8, the odds ARE we take them... We almost traded up for Quinn last year. Neither Boller nor McNair will be on the team in '09.

I'll take that bet. Ozzie would be foolish to take Brohm in the first round, and he's not that foolish.

Last I checked, you weren't the GM or the new HC. You have ZERO idea who will be on this team past this year. Just like me and everyone else here.

And hey as I said, if the coaches feel none of our current QB's can do the job in THEIR system, and they need to go get a QB in the draft; I will believe them. Until then, I have to believe they see more pressing needs.

First, you use one of the worst QB drafts ever

Errrr, so all of a sudden that doesn't count?

2nd Boller and Grossman were hardly at the top of the first. So that's 1/2.

Both were 1st round picks. And I have news for you. You may not like it, but if Boller doesn't go to us, the Packers draft him in the first round. They said as much.

Manning, Rivers and Big Ben were all hits.

The jury is still out on Rivers. Let's not forget what he has around him. And without those weapons, he's not that good. Manning was just about run out of New York by their fanbase along with Tom Caughlin up until about 3 weeks ago.

Rothlesberger is the only legit name in that list, and he still benefited by not having to throw the ball pretty much at all his first year behind center.

Alex Smith sucks. Leinart, Cutler and Young have added up to AT LEAST 2 solid starters. The last few drafts have been kind with top 15 or so QB's taken.

Yet Leinart was benched for Kurt Warner, Jay Cutler did jack squat since starting,

And let's talk about Vince Young shall we? Vince Young ended this year with a 71.1 QB rating, 9 TD's and 17 INTS. His career rating so far is a 69. I mean, isn't QB rating the big indicator of things, or does that only apply to a certain Baltimore QB?


Now, I could go back to Ryan Leaf, Jeff George, Andre Ware, Heath Shuler, Tommy Maddox, Todd Marinovich, David Klingler, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, David Carr, Joey Harrington, or Patrick Ramsey.

All 1st round QB picks. Certainly enough to counter the "60/40" arguement. It's not as often as you think that a 1st round QB strikes gold. Yes, you'll always get a McNabb, McNair, or Palmer at some lucky point. But more often than not you're getting Alex Smith or Heath Shuler.

I'm not there yet with Troy either... but I'm that way with Both Boller and McNair... I DO NOT want any part of either of these guys in '09.

Well, it's not up to you Jon. It's not up to me either.

[/quote] With this draft, my eye is firmly on '09 and beyond. This year, to me is already gone. Whatever we get from it, is a victory. New coach means new outlook. The idea is for Harbaugh to be here a decade. I'm thinking along those lines. [/quote]

Me too. And I'll get to that with something you're about to say a little farther down.

SO to me, IF Troy gets it with Cam Cameron's new offense and LIghts it up, and becomes our QBOTF, then we'll should have a solid option at Backup that could easily become a VERY valuable tade token. See the theoretically great, but realistcally horrible Matt Schaub trade. ATL got quite a load for a QB with potential. So if we moonwalk into a Gem with Smith then Great, but what if we don't? There would be nothing better for the Ravens then for Him to get into camp this year and light it up, show enogh to get McNair cut and Boller relegated to backup, push my new draftee to third, and become a Probowler on our way to a Super Bowl. I'm just trying to have a fallback option in case that doesn't happen. We need two QB's heading into '09 that we can count on. I hate FA retreads...

I'm just curious the absolute freak out some of you are going to have if McNair starts this year. Or worse........the one who benefits from Cameron becomes Boller and beats them all out. I can just imagine the utter chaos that will break out up in the QB forum.

OH you mean one that despite injuries to pro bowlers at Both corner spots, our best pass rusher, one of the best defensive players ever, a handful of top backups, and bumps and bruises to other important players, yet still managed to finish 6th in Yards Allowed? Second in Rush Yards allowed, Sixth in Pass Yards Allowed? Damn, can't hold anyone. THere was quite a lot of scoring allowed. Steve McNair had plenty to do with that.

Yes, that defense. The one where those same injured pro-bowlers are getting older, and will probably miss more time next year. The same Defensive End who is 32 going on 33 and was more than missed this year. The same defense that also lost games this year, couldn't produce sacks even when those pro-bowlers were playing.

Let's not pretend our defense will be back to it's 2000 dominance next year. We need to get younger and more agressive on defense. Or scoring points on offense won't make a difference.

Cincy has No Defense.

Funny how that negates a pro-bowl Quarterback, doesn't it?

When Healthy, we have a pair of the best Bookends in football.

WHEN HEALTHY. Key words. By the way you know Trevor Pryce isn't going to be around but another year or two, right? What happened to looking past '09?

And Suggs wasn't exactly holding his books up that well this year.

Same can be said of our pair of Corners.

Yes, I would say the same could be said. Especially when they can't play, and we have to watch Pittman and Martin try to cover for them.

We have 3 reasonable NEL starting wr's. We certainly lack an Elite game changing receiver, and if there were a Calvin Johnson, Braylon Edwards, or even Larry FItzgerald type player I'd be with you. But there are no top 10 WR's in this class. Chris Long would be an instant pick, Calais Campbell wouldn't be a horrible pick, even as depth options. Leodis Mckelvin, MIke Jenkins, and Aqib Talib all wouldn't be horrible either, but the point is, we can get high quality prospects at those positions later in the day as well.

There we agree. That is why I have DE and CB before WR.

Brohm and Ryan, IMO, are a fair bit better then all other QB's/ The next 5 are a SERIOUS step up from everyone else. After the 7 elite prospects, all are longshots of Smith's level or worse. I don't want to go into '09 with tow recent day 2 QB's. I've never seen a team do that.

I'm not suggesting they aren't. Ok, I don't know what the Brohm-love is all about. But 1) the idea Ryan will be there at 8 is a long shot at best, and 2) he's not worth the 8th pick IMO still sets that ship in motion off the dock.


If Troy Smith last year wasn't the best college football player of his class, and not NFL worthy, why did he win the Heisman? And why if he was the best in his class did he go so late in the draft?

And if Matt Ryan is this football God, why did Tim Tebow win it this year instead? Explain to me what makes Ryan better, because in many people's eyes apparently he wasn't?

[jonboy79]

The jury is still out on Rivers. Let's not forget what he has around him. And without those weapons, he's not that good. Manning was just about run out of New York by their fanbase along with Tom Caughlin up until about 3 weeks ago.

Rothlesberger is the only legit name in that list, and he still benefited by not having to throw the ball pretty much at all his first year behind center.

Yet Leinart was benched for Kurt Warner, Jay Cutler did jack squat since starting,

And let's talk about Vince Young shall we? Vince Young ended this year with a 71.1 QB rating, 9 TD's and 17 INTS. His career rating so far is a 69. I mean, isn't QB rating the big indicator of things, or does that only apply to a certain Baltimore QB?

Now, I could go back to Ryan Leaf, Jeff George, Andre Ware, Heath Shuler, Tommy Maddox, Todd Marinovich, David Klingler, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, David Carr, Joey Harrington, or Patrick Ramsey.

All 1st round QB picks. Certainly enough to counter the "60/40" arguement. It's not as often as you think that a 1st round QB strikes gold. Yes, you'll always get a McNabb, McNair, or Palmer at some lucky point. But more often than not you're getting Alex Smith or Heath Shuler.
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My comment was that recent top of the first round QB's have faired well. How I base that is, without a doubt, all of the names I mentiones as "successes" or close, I would take over any QB we've ever had. Of the list, I actually think Cutler is the best overal player, followed by Big Ben. There certainly was a big run on very good college QB's makign poor pro QB's. College Offenses and defenses have evolved since then. It seems less likely as time goes on, perhaps scouting is better.

I'm just curious the absolute freak out some of you are going to have if McNair starts this year. Or worse........the one who benefits from Cameron becomes Boller and beats them all out. I can just imagine the utter chaos that will break out up in the QB forum.
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Yes, I would FLIP out if he came to that conclusion. I just wouldn't understand that, McNair and Ogden both looked completely unable to compete at the NFL level last year. They were both hampered by injuries, but it seemed deeper then that to me. To me, both seemed to put less then complete effort, and simply lost the fire. I'd like to see both of those GINORMOUS salaries off the book. If nothing else changes, the thing I hope for most is that the best players are on thei field. Billick, without a doubt stuck with incumbents too long. I hope Harbaugh comes to camp with 61 Jobs up for grabs... 8 PSers, 8 inactives, 23 backups/ STers and 22 Starters. That's not to say there isn't a big list of people that would have to play or act their way off the stating lineup, but they should have to show they still are the best option going forward. All of this said, I'd be utterly astounded if McNairs diminished skillset brought the best option to win games, btu I do believe that he belongs in camp, his contract has to be dealth with post June 1st anyways, though I hope he agrees to a paycut to limit his cap number unti then/ increase his chances of holding on to a job. I guess, if you pin me down, my ideal scenario, at this moment would be that McNair take s a BIG paycut, looks better enough in camp to hold down the Vet Backup spot, is comfortable with that, and that TS shows the most promise, while KB has a good preseason, good enough to get a '09 pick from a desperate team. That would really be the best cap and future situation, and this is from a pro-Boller guy that thinks his contract is pretty nice as well. That said, a severely reduced salary for McNair is the best way to absord his dead money over a couple more years, if we cut him next year.

Yes, that defense. The one where those same injured pro-bowlers are getting older, and will probably miss more time next year. The same Defensive End who is 32 going on 33 and was more than missed this year. The same defense that also lost games this year, couldn't produce sacks even when those pro-bowlers were playing.

Let's not pretend our defense will be back to it's 2000 dominance next year. We need to get younger and more agressive on defense. Or scoring points on offense won't make a difference.

Funny how that negates a pro-bowl Quarterback, doesn't it?

WHEN HEALTHY. Key words. By the way you know Trevor Pryce isn't going to be around but another year or two, right? What happened to looking past '09?

And Suggs wasn't exactly holding his books up that well this year.

Yes, I would say the same could be said. Especially when they can't play, and we have to watch Pittman and Martin try to cover for them.
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You kind of round about, made my point. We don't need the 2000 defense... Look at the teams that succeeded in the playoffs, killer offenses, good defenses. When healthy the '07 Ravens defense was better then any of them. They are plenty good enough to win if the Offense is so anemic. If we weren't allergic to the endzone, we'd win some games. Carson is negated by a horrific defense much like our deffense has been for years by our QB play. Suggs had a down year, I'd give him another 5 or 6 years to show what he's go... that'll take us to his lower 30's... jsut in time to let him walk. Not Freeney money, but if he wan't Charles Grant Money I'm game.

I'm not suggesting they aren't. Ok, I don't know what the Brohm-love is all about. But 1) the idea Ryan will be there at 8 is a long shot at best, and 2) he's not worth the 8th pick IMO still sets that ship in motion off the dock.


If Troy Smith last year wasn't the best college football player of his class, and not NFL worthy, why did he win the Heisman? And why if he was the best in his class did he go so late in the draft?

And if Matt Ryan is this football God, why did Tim Tebow win it this year instead? Explain to me what makes Ryan better, because in many people's eyes apparently he wasn't?

There is still a disconnect between the college and Pro Games. Jason White wasn't even drafted... never even really had a shot at the Pro Game... why? Because he had no shto as a pro QB, even if he did have healthy knees.

Tim Tebow is an absolute animal. If he was three years out of HS, he'd already be negotiating his contract with MIA. It's almost worth skipping on a QB, and intentionally going 1-15 or 2-14 to get him. I honestly think he could revolutionize the game of football. He's kind of a mix of Vick, Young, McNabb, Big Ben, John Elway, MIke Alstott... ok maybe a bit high of praise, but to me he's easily the best QB prospect since Carson Palmer.

[StingerNLG]

I do love your passion Jon. At least you think your arguements through.

But we are going to remain at odds on this. Recent QB's still include most of the class of 2003, and Joey Harrington in 2004, Alex Smith, and those types. That still is recent.

Whether you like it or not, Boller and Smith at least are going to be here next year. Harbaugh and Cameron are going to evaulate them likely in real-time, in OTA"s and mini camps, in THEIR system. If we fired Billick because he couldn't put an offense together, then by default that gives Boller and Smith a clean slate to compete. That means one of them may actually look like a legit NfL QB because they have a system that let's them be.

And if that will make you "flip out" because one of our guys finally succeeds, then you can't have been happy with Billick being fired.

I am going to wait for them to tell me they beed our next QB to come from the draft. And if they decide they cannot do anything with Kyle Boller or Troy Smith, then that is fine with me too.

Notice BTW I am also not factoring McNair in the equation, as I don't see him as an answer short or long term.

In the meantime my position will stand. We need someone opposite Suggs, and we need to keep Suggs or DE becomes an immediate priority, or a Cornerback. I'm not shooting the moon for another 1st round QB we may not need just yet.