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  1. #37

    Re: Ravens 08 draft: Your thoughts....



    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    You realize almost noone can agree with you on this. Even those in the media, INCLUDING guys like Mel Kiper don't have us touching a QB in early going. Heck, Kiper has us taking a DT, which made me scratch my head.

    A QB in the first round isn't happening. You may as well strike the champaigne bottle to that boat and let it sail.
    .
    OK if it's a dead issue, what kind of odds are you giving me? 10-1? I'll take that in a heartbeat... I'd say if either Brohm or Ryan are available at 8, the odds ARE we take them... We almost traded up for Quinn last year. Neither Boller nor McNair will be on the team in '09.

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    More than 60%? I want to see that statistic play out. If you go by the 2003 draft alone, out of first 4 QB's taken (Palmer, Leftwich, Boller, Grossman), which one has really worked out for their respective clubs? Carson Palmer, and he's only gotten his team to the playoffs once. Other than that he's no better than an 8-8 QB
    .
    First, you use one of the worst QB drafts ever, 2nd Boller and Grossman were hardly at the top of the first. So that's 1/2. Manning, Rivers and Big Ben were all hits. Alex Smith sucks. Leinart, Cutler and Young have added up to AT LEAST 2 solid starters. The last few drafts have been kind with top 15 or so QB's taken.


    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    I'll wait and let our new head coach and offensive coaches tell us that. I'm not ready to pat Troy Smith on the helmet just yet and say "Well son, at least your Heisman Trophy looks good on your mantle".
    .
    I'm not there yet with Troy either... but I'm that way with Both Boller and McNair... I DO NOT want any part of either of these guys in '09. With this draft, my eye is firmly on '09 and beyond. This year, to me is already gone. Whatever we get from it, is a victory. New coach means new outlook. The idea is for Harbaugh to be here a decade. I'm thinking along those lines.
    SO to me, IF Troy gets it with Cam Cameron's new offense and LIghts it up, and becomes our QBOTF, then we'll should have a solid option at Backup that could easily become a VERY valuable tade token. See the theoretically great, but realistcally horrible Matt Schaub trade. ATL got quite a load for a QB with potential. So if we moonwalk into a Gem with Smith then Great, but what if we don't? There would be nothing better for the Ravens then for Him to get into camp this year and light it up, show enogh to get McNair cut and Boller relegated to backup, push my new draftee to third, and become a Probowler on our way to a Super Bowl. I'm just trying to have a fallback option in case that doesn't happen. We need two QB's heading into '09 that we can count on. I hate FA retreads...

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    In the meantime what good is that top QB if you don't have a defense that can hold an opponent.
    .
    OH you mean one that despite injuries to pro bowlers at Both corner spots, our best pass rusher, one of the best defensive players ever, a handful of top backups, and bumps and bruises to other important players, yet still managed to finish 6th in Yards Allowed? Second in Rush Yards allowed, Sixth in Pass Yards Allowed? Damn, can't hold anyone. THere was quite a lot of scoring allowed. Steve McNair had plenty to do with that.


    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    Maybe you should ask that same guy Carson Palmer what it's like to play on a team where they constantly lose despite his good QB play.

    Right now I put rushing the passer WAY ahead of new QB. So far ahead you can stick Cornerback and Wide Receiver between them
    .
    Cincy has No Defense.
    When Healthy, we have a pair of the best Bookends in football. Same can be said of our pair of Corners. We have 3 reasonable NEL starting wr's. We certainly lack an Elite game changing receiver, and if there were a Calvin Johnson, Braylon Edwards, or even Larry FItzgerald type player I'd be with you. But there are no top 10 WR's in this class. Chris Long would be an instant pick, Calais Campbell wouldn't be a horrible pick, even as depth options. Leodis Mckelvin, MIke Jenkins, and Aqib Talib all wouldn't be horrible either, but the point is, we can get high quality prospects at those positions later in the day as well. Brohm and Ryan, IMO, are a fair bit better then all other QB's/ The next 5 are a SERIOUS step up from everyone else. After the 7 elite prospects, all are longshots of Smith's level or worse. I don't want to go into '09 with tow recent day 2 QB's. I've never seen a team do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    As for the offensive line, I don't agree the problem is the talent not working out. I watched enough of Marshal Yanda to see that he's developing, but while he is he has been pretty solid. Adam Terry will be more than capable at LT (although of course not like JO). Ben Grubbs has already proven himself. That leaves Center and another guard spot to round out. As far as I am concerned what they need to do is politely tell JO and Mike Flynn it is time to retire gracefully, and then let the young line play EVERY GAME together this year and learn and grow.
    .
    We finally agree... The talent is there, it needs to be coached up, seasoned and comfortable as a unit. I'm not opposed to Flynn as the cagey Vet on the sidelines, his contract isn't Huge. JO has no place on the newstyle Ravens. IMO, if an upgrade is to be made, it would be trading a late day pick for Vet Center to fill out the line, but I'm more then ready to walk into 08 with Chester penciled in as the starter. Trial by Fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    I'm split between wanting to see a DE or a CB, either of which I think we could trade back for. McAlister and Rolle aren't going to play 16 games anymore, and we are going to need someone better than David Pittman and Derrick Martin covering their spots and eventually taking them over. On the other hand, we need another young stud on the line opposite Suggs to actually get at the passer next year. Our sacks and hurry percentages were just sorry considering the year before that.
    I think those are definately the 2nd and 3rd most importnat needs. They should both be drafted by round 4 or 5... I thinkt he top of the 2nd will provide GEREAT value at CB and our comp third will hopefully yield a DE, WR or some other potential impact player.
    If For example, someone trades ahead of us and snags Brohm, with Ryan gone. I do not advise reaching for a QB then. If a trade back is unable to be made, then I would pick Ellis, or Calias Campbell. I would then really hope to be able to stay pat at 39 and select Henne, and then look for scraps at CB on day 2... Martin and Pittman have some potential IMO. CMAC and Rolle are much more then capable when healthy, and day 1 CB's, when drafted properly, are Plug and Play almost to the level of RB's. If we really get burned out, CMAC and Rolle both end their career this season, and Martina dn Pittman both stink again, then next year we'll draft Corners with both day 1 picks and have a fairly solid seconday by week 4.
    Last edited by jonboy79; 01-25-2008 at 09:48 PM.




  2. #38

    Re: Ravens 08 draft: Your thoughts....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    OK if it's a dead issue, what kind of odds are you giving me? 10-1? I'll take that in a heartbeat... I'd say if either Brohm or Ryan are available at 8, the odds ARE we take them... We almost traded up for Quinn last year. Neither Boller nor McNair will be on the team in '09.
    I'll take that bet. Ozzie would be foolish to take Brohm in the first round, and he's not that foolish.

    Last I checked, you weren't the GM or the new HC. You have ZERO idea who will be on this team past this year. Just like me and everyone else here.

    And hey as I said, if the coaches feel none of our current QB's can do the job in THEIR system, and they need to go get a QB in the draft; I will believe them. Until then, I have to believe they see more pressing needs.


    First, you use one of the worst QB drafts ever
    Errrr, so all of a sudden that doesn't count?


    2nd Boller and Grossman were hardly at the top of the first. So that's 1/2.
    Both were 1st round picks. And I have news for you. You may not like it, but if Boller doesn't go to us, the Packers draft him in the first round. They said as much.


    Manning, Rivers and Big Ben were all hits.
    The jury is still out on Rivers. Let's not forget what he has around him. And without those weapons, he's not that good. Manning was just about run out of New York by their fanbase along with Tom Caughlin up until about 3 weeks ago.

    Rothlesberger is the only legit name in that list, and he still benefited by not having to throw the ball pretty much at all his first year behind center.


    Alex Smith sucks. Leinart, Cutler and Young have added up to AT LEAST 2 solid starters. The last few drafts have been kind with top 15 or so QB's taken.
    Yet Leinart was benched for Kurt Warner, Jay Cutler did jack squat since starting,

    And let's talk about Vince Young shall we? Vince Young ended this year with a 71.1 QB rating, 9 TD's and 17 INTS. His career rating so far is a 69. I mean, isn't QB rating the big indicator of things, or does that only apply to a certain Baltimore QB?


    Now, I could go back to Ryan Leaf, Jeff George, Andre Ware, Heath Shuler, Tommy Maddox, Todd Marinovich, David Klingler, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, David Carr, Joey Harrington, or Patrick Ramsey.

    All 1st round QB picks. Certainly enough to counter the "60/40" arguement. It's not as often as you think that a 1st round QB strikes gold. Yes, you'll always get a McNabb, McNair, or Palmer at some lucky point. But more often than not you're getting Alex Smith or Heath Shuler.


    I'm not there yet with Troy either... but I'm that way with Both Boller and McNair... I DO NOT want any part of either of these guys in '09.
    Well, it's not up to you Jon. It's not up to me either.

    [/quote] With this draft, my eye is firmly on '09 and beyond. This year, to me is already gone. Whatever we get from it, is a victory. New coach means new outlook. The idea is for Harbaugh to be here a decade. I'm thinking along those lines. [/quote]

    Me too. And I'll get to that with something you're about to say a little farther down.


    SO to me, IF Troy gets it with Cam Cameron's new offense and LIghts it up, and becomes our QBOTF, then we'll should have a solid option at Backup that could easily become a VERY valuable tade token. See the theoretically great, but realistcally horrible Matt Schaub trade. ATL got quite a load for a QB with potential. So if we moonwalk into a Gem with Smith then Great, but what if we don't? There would be nothing better for the Ravens then for Him to get into camp this year and light it up, show enogh to get McNair cut and Boller relegated to backup, push my new draftee to third, and become a Probowler on our way to a Super Bowl. I'm just trying to have a fallback option in case that doesn't happen. We need two QB's heading into '09 that we can count on. I hate FA retreads...
    I'm just curious the absolute freak out some of you are going to have if McNair starts this year. Or worse........the one who benefits from Cameron becomes Boller and beats them all out. I can just imagine the utter chaos that will break out up in the QB forum.


    OH you mean one that despite injuries to pro bowlers at Both corner spots, our best pass rusher, one of the best defensive players ever, a handful of top backups, and bumps and bruises to other important players, yet still managed to finish 6th in Yards Allowed? Second in Rush Yards allowed, Sixth in Pass Yards Allowed? Damn, can't hold anyone. THere was quite a lot of scoring allowed. Steve McNair had plenty to do with that.
    Yes, that defense. The one where those same injured pro-bowlers are getting older, and will probably miss more time next year. The same Defensive End who is 32 going on 33 and was more than missed this year. The same defense that also lost games this year, couldn't produce sacks even when those pro-bowlers were playing.

    Let's not pretend our defense will be back to it's 2000 dominance next year. We need to get younger and more agressive on defense. Or scoring points on offense won't make a difference.


    Cincy has No Defense.
    Funny how that negates a pro-bowl Quarterback, doesn't it?


    When Healthy, we have a pair of the best Bookends in football.
    WHEN HEALTHY. Key words. By the way you know Trevor Pryce isn't going to be around but another year or two, right? What happened to looking past '09?

    And Suggs wasn't exactly holding his books up that well this year.

    Same can be said of our pair of Corners.
    Yes, I would say the same could be said. Especially when they can't play, and we have to watch Pittman and Martin try to cover for them.


    We have 3 reasonable NEL starting wr's. We certainly lack an Elite game changing receiver, and if there were a Calvin Johnson, Braylon Edwards, or even Larry FItzgerald type player I'd be with you. But there are no top 10 WR's in this class. Chris Long would be an instant pick, Calais Campbell wouldn't be a horrible pick, even as depth options. Leodis Mckelvin, MIke Jenkins, and Aqib Talib all wouldn't be horrible either, but the point is, we can get high quality prospects at those positions later in the day as well.
    There we agree. That is why I have DE and CB before WR.


    Brohm and Ryan, IMO, are a fair bit better then all other QB's/ The next 5 are a SERIOUS step up from everyone else. After the 7 elite prospects, all are longshots of Smith's level or worse. I don't want to go into '09 with tow recent day 2 QB's. I've never seen a team do that.
    I'm not suggesting they aren't. Ok, I don't know what the Brohm-love is all about. But 1) the idea Ryan will be there at 8 is a long shot at best, and 2) he's not worth the 8th pick IMO still sets that ship in motion off the dock.


    If Troy Smith last year wasn't the best college football player of his class, and not NFL worthy, why did he win the Heisman? And why if he was the best in his class did he go so late in the draft?

    And if Matt Ryan is this football God, why did Tim Tebow win it this year instead? Explain to me what makes Ryan better, because in many people's eyes apparently he wasn't?




  3. #39

    Re: Ravens 08 draft: Your thoughts....

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    The jury is still out on Rivers. Let's not forget what he has around him. And without those weapons, he's not that good. Manning was just about run out of New York by their fanbase along with Tom Caughlin up until about 3 weeks ago.

    Rothlesberger is the only legit name in that list, and he still benefited by not having to throw the ball pretty much at all his first year behind center.

    Yet Leinart was benched for Kurt Warner, Jay Cutler did jack squat since starting,

    And let's talk about Vince Young shall we? Vince Young ended this year with a 71.1 QB rating, 9 TD's and 17 INTS. His career rating so far is a 69. I mean, isn't QB rating the big indicator of things, or does that only apply to a certain Baltimore QB?

    Now, I could go back to Ryan Leaf, Jeff George, Andre Ware, Heath Shuler, Tommy Maddox, Todd Marinovich, David Klingler, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, David Carr, Joey Harrington, or Patrick Ramsey.

    All 1st round QB picks. Certainly enough to counter the "60/40" arguement. It's not as often as you think that a 1st round QB strikes gold. Yes, you'll always get a McNabb, McNair, or Palmer at some lucky point. But more often than not you're getting Alex Smith or Heath Shuler.
    ?
    My comment was that recent top of the first round QB's have faired well. How I base that is, without a doubt, all of the names I mentiones as "successes" or close, I would take over any QB we've ever had. Of the list, I actually think Cutler is the best overal player, followed by Big Ben. There certainly was a big run on very good college QB's makign poor pro QB's. College Offenses and defenses have evolved since then. It seems less likely as time goes on, perhaps scouting is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    I'm just curious the absolute freak out some of you are going to have if McNair starts this year. Or worse........the one who benefits from Cameron becomes Boller and beats them all out. I can just imagine the utter chaos that will break out up in the QB forum.
    ?
    Yes, I would FLIP out if he came to that conclusion. I just wouldn't understand that, McNair and Ogden both looked completely unable to compete at the NFL level last year. They were both hampered by injuries, but it seemed deeper then that to me. To me, both seemed to put less then complete effort, and simply lost the fire. I'd like to see both of those GINORMOUS salaries off the book. If nothing else changes, the thing I hope for most is that the best players are on thei field. Billick, without a doubt stuck with incumbents too long. I hope Harbaugh comes to camp with 61 Jobs up for grabs... 8 PSers, 8 inactives, 23 backups/ STers and 22 Starters. That's not to say there isn't a big list of people that would have to play or act their way off the stating lineup, but they should have to show they still are the best option going forward. All of this said, I'd be utterly astounded if McNairs diminished skillset brought the best option to win games, btu I do believe that he belongs in camp, his contract has to be dealth with post June 1st anyways, though I hope he agrees to a paycut to limit his cap number unti then/ increase his chances of holding on to a job. I guess, if you pin me down, my ideal scenario, at this moment would be that McNair take s a BIG paycut, looks better enough in camp to hold down the Vet Backup spot, is comfortable with that, and that TS shows the most promise, while KB has a good preseason, good enough to get a '09 pick from a desperate team. That would really be the best cap and future situation, and this is from a pro-Boller guy that thinks his contract is pretty nice as well. That said, a severely reduced salary for McNair is the best way to absord his dead money over a couple more years, if we cut him next year.


    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    Yes, that defense. The one where those same injured pro-bowlers are getting older, and will probably miss more time next year. The same Defensive End who is 32 going on 33 and was more than missed this year. The same defense that also lost games this year, couldn't produce sacks even when those pro-bowlers were playing.

    Let's not pretend our defense will be back to it's 2000 dominance next year. We need to get younger and more agressive on defense. Or scoring points on offense won't make a difference.

    Funny how that negates a pro-bowl Quarterback, doesn't it?

    WHEN HEALTHY. Key words. By the way you know Trevor Pryce isn't going to be around but another year or two, right? What happened to looking past '09?

    And Suggs wasn't exactly holding his books up that well this year.

    Yes, I would say the same could be said. Especially when they can't play, and we have to watch Pittman and Martin try to cover for them.
    ?
    You kind of round about, made my point. We don't need the 2000 defense... Look at the teams that succeeded in the playoffs, killer offenses, good defenses. When healthy the '07 Ravens defense was better then any of them. They are plenty good enough to win if the Offense is so anemic. If we weren't allergic to the endzone, we'd win some games. Carson is negated by a horrific defense much like our deffense has been for years by our QB play. Suggs had a down year, I'd give him another 5 or 6 years to show what he's go... that'll take us to his lower 30's... jsut in time to let him walk. Not Freeney money, but if he wan't Charles Grant Money I'm game.

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    I'm not suggesting they aren't. Ok, I don't know what the Brohm-love is all about. But 1) the idea Ryan will be there at 8 is a long shot at best, and 2) he's not worth the 8th pick IMO still sets that ship in motion off the dock.


    If Troy Smith last year wasn't the best college football player of his class, and not NFL worthy, why did he win the Heisman? And why if he was the best in his class did he go so late in the draft?

    And if Matt Ryan is this football God, why did Tim Tebow win it this year instead? Explain to me what makes Ryan better, because in many people's eyes apparently he wasn't?

    There is still a disconnect between the college and Pro Games. Jason White wasn't even drafted... never even really had a shot at the Pro Game... why? Because he had no shto as a pro QB, even if he did have healthy knees.

    Tim Tebow is an absolute animal. If he was three years out of HS, he'd already be negotiating his contract with MIA. It's almost worth skipping on a QB, and intentionally going 1-15 or 2-14 to get him. I honestly think he could revolutionize the game of football. He's kind of a mix of Vick, Young, McNabb, Big Ben, John Elway, MIke Alstott... ok maybe a bit high of praise, but to me he's easily the best QB prospect since Carson Palmer.




  4. #40

    Re: Ravens 08 draft: Your thoughts....

    I do love your passion Jon. At least you think your arguements through.

    But we are going to remain at odds on this. Recent QB's still include most of the class of 2003, and Joey Harrington in 2004, Alex Smith, and those types. That still is recent.

    Whether you like it or not, Boller and Smith at least are going to be here next year. Harbaugh and Cameron are going to evaulate them likely in real-time, in OTA"s and mini camps, in THEIR system. If we fired Billick because he couldn't put an offense together, then by default that gives Boller and Smith a clean slate to compete. That means one of them may actually look like a legit NfL QB because they have a system that let's them be.

    And if that will make you "flip out" because one of our guys finally succeeds, then you can't have been happy with Billick being fired.

    I am going to wait for them to tell me they beed our next QB to come from the draft. And if they decide they cannot do anything with Kyle Boller or Troy Smith, then that is fine with me too.

    Notice BTW I am also not factoring McNair in the equation, as I don't see him as an answer short or long term.

    In the meantime my position will stand. We need someone opposite Suggs, and we need to keep Suggs or DE becomes an immediate priority, or a Cornerback. I'm not shooting the moon for another 1st round QB we may not need just yet.




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