Brian Billick employed again ???

[HoustonRaven]

You keep making it sound like Ozzie is some kind of waiter taking orders from his coaches.

No. I didnt even suggest that. It's not an either / or proposition. Yes, Billick is the coach and has input. Yes, Ozzzie has the final say. ALL NFL teams rely on a coaches input on selecting people -- Im not saying nothing more or nothing less.

That's just wrong. Coaches can voice their opinions just as my kids can voice their opinions at family dinner, and the Vice President can voice his opinion about whether a bill becomes a law.

If you were right, why would the scouts not work for the coaching staff, instead of for the gm?

Number of times read Next Man Up =/= Number of times understood Next Man Up

You remain obstinately wrong on a simple point, and I no longer am interested in persuading you.

Cheers!

And to quote you, just because you state it as fact, doesnt make it so. Slam the book, the media, me, etc all you want but every NFL uses their coaches input on making personnel desicisons. These player picks do not happen in a vacuum.

I never said scouts work for the coach. Not sure why you keep reading into my posts on this. Scouts work for the GM. (???)

[HoustonRaven]

Wrong again -- of course Billick had some input, as any HC should, but he did not have the "biggest say." That would belong to Ozzie.

And yes, I read "Next Man Up" too. We seem to be interpreting it differently.

I guess we're defining "biggest say" differently.

If Harbaugh walked into Ozzie's office tomorrow and said he wanted ... oh, I dont know .... Colt McCoy really badly, Ozzie would find a way to make it happen. (Before anyone else says it, I know he isnt coming out. Im using his name as an example since he's on my TV right now).

Now, because of that, I do not for one second suggest that Ozzie doesnt have a say, make the final decision, etc.

What I am saying is that the process, like almsot everything in coaching is a partnership.

Yes, there are players that Ozzies wants and Ozzie gets, more times then we probably know. But if Harbaugh says a certain player gives them the best chance to win, Ozzie is smart enough to not get in the way (unless he thinks the guy is not good for the team).

But I do not agree, based on a huge amount of reports, major parts of a book, local sports reporters, etc, that tell me the coach gets far more say in the decisions than some here give him credit for.

[Losac]

Losac, to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld, you play NFL football with the team you have, not the team you want.

I really hadn't pegged you for one of the ones who thought Redman should have been starting, and was evilly ruined by Brian Billick. It's not like Redman *ever* did anything to make me wonder, but perhaps the fact that Redman was once again on an NFL team this year is justification in your mind for second guessing that decision made six years ago.

Color me wrong, I guess.

If you *are* one of those folks then I don't care to discuss it anymore, no offense.

If you draft a QB and plan to develop him as your franchise QB, it's never a good decision to start him right away as a rookie. Sure, it works once in awhile (Worthlessberger), but usually it hurts the development more than it helps. In the long term, it was more "prudent" (if you like Billick speak) to let Boller sit for at least a year to let the game sink in.

Redman should have been cut, but I do seem to remember going to the playoffs that year behind Anthony Wright.

I think most people universally admit one of Billick's main mistakes was to start Boller right out of the gate, but apparently there are a few who think it was a good decision.

[festivus]

Losac we can agree starting Boller as a rookie was terrible for Boller, for sure. But somebody has to start, for the team. That conversation is water under the bridge, as far as I'm concerned.

Houston you have successfully backed off your point, so I don't think we disagree anymore. Billick has input, like all coaches do. GM's do the drafting, which is why the scouts work for *them*. The coaches can request things of the gms just as anyone supervised can request something of the supervisor.

Sounds good to me!

[HoustonRaven]

Houston you have successfully backed off your point, so I don't think we disagree anymore. Billick has input, like all coaches do. GM's do the drafting, which is why the scouts work for *them*. The coaches can request things of the gms just as anyone supervised can request something of the supervisor.

I didnt back off of anything. Go back and re-read my posts since getting to these boards and I have said the same thing.

Three straight responses and you've succesfully read into all three.

[purplepoe]

If Harbaugh walked into Ozzie's office tomorrow and said he wanted ... oh, I dont know .... Colt McCoy really badly, Ozzie would find a way to make it happen. (Before anyone else says it, I know he isnt coming out. Im using his name as an example since he's on my TV right now).

Uh, I couldn't disagree more.

There's a reason every team has scouts. They are the ones who provide Ozzie with the most detailed info about the players available in the draft.

As far as Next Man Up.

It's amazing that you can come away thinking the coach has as much impact on who is drafted as you think.

If anything, I would say that book reinforced that Ozzie has COMPLETE control of who gets drafted on this team.

As far as the rest of this thread.

Why in the hell is Billick getting blamed for starting Boller when, as ridiculous as it sounds, he was the best option.

The teflon GM is gonna start walking on water soon.

Amazing.

That's OK though. Im sure this offense is gonna make leaps and bounds this year with virtually the same personnel.

Who gets the blame then?

It can't be the players, can it?

PP

[HoustonRaven]

Uh, I couldn't disagree more.

There's a reason every team has scouts. They are the ones who provide Ozzie with the most detailed info about the players available in the draft.

As far as Next Man Up.

It's amazing that you can come away thinking the coach has as much impact on who is drafted as you think.

If anything, I would say that book reinforced that Ozzie has COMPLETE control of who gets drafted on this team.

As far as the rest of this thread.

Why in the hell is Billick getting blamed for starting Boller when, as ridiculous as it sounds, he was the best option.

The teflon GM is gonna start walking on water soon.

Amazing.

That's OK though. Im sure this offense is gonna make leaps and bounds this year with virtually the same personnel.

Who gets the blame then?

It can't be the players, can it?

PP

Im agreeing with you. I never said Ozzie doesnt have complete control (is that a double negative sentence?).

Ozzie DEFINITELY deserves some blame if players perform like baffoons. The ONLY point I take excpetion with Festivus is the head coach's influence (or lack thereof) regarding picking players.

Im 100% on your side with the Boller discussion though.

[purplepoe]

Im agreeing with you. I never said Ozzie doesnt have complete control (is that a double negative sentence?).

Ozzie DEFINITELY deserves some blame if players perform like baffoons. The ONLY point I take excpetion with Festivus is the head coach's influence (or lack thereof) regarding picking players.

Im 100% on your side with the Boller discussion though.

Here's my issue with what you are saying Houston.

You seem to think that if the HC goes to Ozzie and asks for a player that Ozzie is gonna do whatever he can to get that player.

I totally disagree with that.

IMO he takes that under advisement and that's it.

He will sit down with his personnel guys and go over every player they have an interest in and set the board.

The HC of a NFL team spends the majority of his time concentrating on coaching the team etc...

All that time he's doing that, the scouts and Ozzie are scouring over hours of film determining what guys they wanna target.

Ozzie isn't gonna throw that out the window just because the HC or any other coach says he wants a particular player.

PP

[HoustonRaven]

Here's my issue with what you are saying Houston.

You seem to think that if the HC goes to Ozzie and asks for a player that Ozzie is gonna do whatever he can to get that player.

I totally disagree with that.

IMO he takes that under advisement and that's it.

He will sit down with his personnel guys and go over every player they have an interest in and set the board.

The HC of a NFL team spends the majority of his time concentrating on coaching the team etc...

All that time he's doing that, the scouts and Ozzie are scouring over hours of film determining what guys they wanna target.

Ozzie isn't gonna throw that out the window just because the HC or any other coach says he wants a particular player.

PP

OK, I see your point now and I think we do agree actually.

I was taking it as an assumption all the film viewing, reports, etc were taken for granted in our discussion. I guess it parcing words, but I dont think Ozzie would say the actual words "I will take it under advisement". That smacks of a lack of a partnership between the GM and the coach, which I dont think happened with Oz and Billick.

I agree with you 100% (for once)!

[highwater]

I guess it parcing words, but I dont think Ozzie would say the actual words "I will take it under advisement". That smacks of a lack of a partnership between the GM and the coach, which I dont think happened with Oz and Billick.

This debate really has turned into a wordsmithing exercise. I think we all agree that Billick had input, and that he and Ozzie worked well together, but that Billick did not have "the biggest say" as you (Houston) said earlier in the thread. Yes, Billick had input, but not the final word.

Let's put this issue to bed and find something else to politely bicker about.

[HoustonRaven]

This debate really has turned into a wordsmithing exercise. I think we all agree that Billick had input, and that he and Ozzie worked well together, but that Billick did not have "the biggest say" as you (Houston) said earlier in the thread. Yes, Billick had input, but not the final word.

Let's put this issue to bed and find something else to politely bicker about.

[festivus]

I didnt back off of anything. Go back and re-read my posts since getting to these boards and I have said the same thing.

Sure thing! I will.

I read this:

Billick loved the Pac-10 and was very into Boller's future when he was at Cal. That's not some big secret. Ngata was "hand picked" by Billick too -- meaning he pushed for him to get signed.

and this:

Of course not. I do say he (and now Harbaugh) has strong input. If he or Harbaugh go to Ozzie and says they want Joe Schmo, Ozzie will do what he can to make it happen.

(emphasis added by me)

and in the same post

Yes, Ozzie has final say. That's the job of the GM. But he doesnt ship people to the coach that the coach doesnt want either.

which is why I responded

You keep making it sound like Ozzie is some kind of waiter taking orders from his coaches.

To which you restated your position thusly:

No. I didnt even suggest that. It's not an either / or proposition. Yes, Billick is the coach and has input. Yes, Ozzzie has the final say. ALL NFL teams rely on a coaches input on selecting people -- Im not saying nothing more or nothing less.

Ok, now I read them together, and so has everyone else. Readers can draw their own conclusions.

There was a time I was much less combative on this forum. I miss those days. *sigh*

[HoustonRaven]

Sure thing! I will.

I read this:


and this:
(emphasis added by me)

and in the same post



which is why I responded



To which you restated your position thusly:



Ok, now I read them together, and so has everyone else. Readers can draw their own conclusions.

There was a time I was much less combative on this forum. I miss those days. *sigh*

Decaf. Really.

[highwater]

There was a time I was much less combative on this forum. I miss those days. *sigh*

Sack up, festivus! You are not being combative! Besides, a little debate is healthy, and neither you nor Houston has gone out of bounds (so far).

Houston (can I call you Houston?), your position on this topic has been a bit of a moving target to my eyes, but as I said before, I think we are splitting hairs with our choice of words. I think we're actually all pretty much on the same page, so enough of

[festivus]

Decaf. Really.

Oh I am SO sorry to disappoint you Houston.

For your information, this is what we call an ad hominem attack. Which means you are changing the subject from our debate to *me*.

Fine, fine. As I said, the readers can decide for themselves. I was just reading posts, like you suggested.

[HoustonRaven]

Oh I am SO sorry to disappoint you Houston.

For your information, this is what we call an ad hominem attack. Which means you are changing the subject from our debate to *me*.

Fine, fine. As I said, the readers can decide for themselves. I was just reading posts, like you suggested.

yeah decaf .... read what HW said. Nothing personal in anything I've said.

Relax.

[darb72]

We know dang well I don't have any input, or we'd have the best offensive line in the NFL!

Ok, y'all go back to arguing.

[festivus]

yeah decaf .... read what HW said. Nothing personal in anything I've said.

Relax.

I didn't take anything personally, and I *did* read what Highwater said. Once again we read the same thing and interpreted it differently.

I am relaxed, thanks for your concern. I'm just not giving in. It's different.

[flraven]

I understand it that Billick gets the whole $15 mil unless he gets a HC gig. If he gets a network gig, he still gets the $15 mil.

that's going to be one hell of a country house he's building in St. Michaels!