Suggs Part II

**Ravenswarrior19** · 03-07-2008, 10:50 AM

A few quick points:

if Suggs really has played more downs at DE than at OLB, then they should have just franchised him at DE and not made this an issue

I don't know what the precedent is for a franchise player's position. Suggs is listed as a LB everywhere, and has gone to pro-bowls as a linebacker. If you start counting snaps at each position, is it as simple as "hand up" vs. "hand down"? And if you do count snaps, do you do it for just the '07 season, or his whole career?

This issue wil probably need arbitration to sort out. If there are any previous cases, i would love to hear about them.

And all over what, about $800K? That's a hell of lot to me, but Suggs could probably spend it in a weekend in Vegas.

While this may be true, a new light may be shed on this because we are talking about a football player. This franchise tag could be Sugg's last guaranteed money of his career. That $800K sounds a little more important if he gets hurt in the 1st week of camp.

**UKRaven** · 03-07-2008, 12:30 PM

The '$800K' is the tip of the iceberg to what he will DEMAND if he is deemed to actually be a DE in arbitration. Such a decision would be add millions to his contract demands.

If he is 'deemed' to be an OLB (and he is a good one!) will he spit out his dummy (pacifier

) and refuse to play or something else?

When a agent has put a player's head so far into the clouds (mega $$$'s) can he then bring himself back down again?

The good teams would be walking away by now - knowing that a player has been ruined

**Ravenswarrior19** · 03-07-2008, 12:37 PM

The '$800K' is the tip of the iceberg to what he will DEMAND if he is deemed to actually be a DE in arbitration. Such a decision would be add millions to his contract demands.

I never even thought about that side of it. Wow, that would be critical.

As for walking away from him - I don't see this team doing that. Nor do I think we should. We may be in cap jail now, but we won't be in coming years when a lot of our big contracts retire. Not to mention how high the cap number will be by the end of Sugg's prospective new deal.

**Rayvens52** · 03-07-2008, 03:51 PM

Why should he just say ok i'll take $800k less than I should be making. Sure he is rich and prob does not need it but would any of us take a cut at work if we did not deserve to. There is no chance in hell I would let the Ravens screw me out of $800k if i deserved it. I personally don't think we should sign him to a long term deal until atleast part of the season has played out or is over, so we can see how he performs. If his numbers stay the same let him go, if not sign him. I just think before we invest the kind of money we are going to we should see him play well again.

**Raveninwoodlawn** · 03-07-2008, 04:30 PM

Give me a break.

This team has completely restricted Suggs movement and ability to negotiate with multiple teams.

If he was on the open market, he would have been paid a gigantic contract yesterday.

I have no problem with him wanting an extra $810k.

I'd do the exact same thing

**UKRaven** · 03-08-2008, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn

Give me a break.

This team has completely restricted Suggs movement and ability to negotiate with multiple teams.

If he was on the open market, he would have been paid a gigantic contract yesterday.

I have no problem with him wanting an extra $810k.

I'd do the exact same thing

So you would screw the Ravens over as well!!!

It's about a LOT more than an extra $810K !

**Raveninwoodlawn** · 03-08-2008, 05:30 AM

Screw the Ravens? The team doesn't have to franchise him, if they don't or can't pay the money, then they don't hae to pay Suggs a dime. He is not under any contract.

If anything, he was screwed by the Ravens by the team completely restricting his movement. Out on the market, Suggs would get close to $30 million garunteed...here he is only garunteed around $8 million. if anybody is getting screwed, it's Suggs.

And if he plays most ot the time with his hand in the dirt, just give him the extra cash...he is a hybrid player. Unfortunately, when you have guys that move around like Suggs, that is what you get. IMHO, from what I've seen, he plays his best with his hand in the dirt and is best attacking the LOS...basically what a DE does.

**Raineman** · 03-08-2008, 08:00 AM

I really don't know how I feel about this. Most of me doesn't give a rat's a$$ about it, BUT my initial reaction to hearing this was, "F him". Whether he deserves it or not, I didn't get that warm fuzzy "team player" feeling when he did this.

If the Ravens are trying to get that "team" attitude back in the locker room, then I think someone didn't get the memo.

**ravenwoman** · 03-08-2008, 02:04 PM

The Ravens got themselves in this mess (meaning cap hell) by overpaying guys like Steve McNair, Samari Rolle, Trevor Price and most of the other "Over30, over the hill type players." If they would have managed the cap properly, then 800K would seem like chump change. Since we are strapped so tight from past mistakes all we have now is a fairly old team and huge contracts with big signing bonuses that now, we have to pay off. This really isn't about Suggs, but about the Ravens not managing the cap.

**jonboy79** · 03-08-2008, 02:49 PM

In all seriousness, you can pin our cap woes basically on a single contract. Steve McNair. If we were getting our money's worth on his deal we would have gone 11-5, not 5-11. We would have won a playoff game by now as well. UNfortunately we have a BIG deal at the most important position and last season we got NOTHING, or maybe even a bit less then that last year out of it.

**HoustonRaven** · 03-08-2008, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by ravenwoman

The Ravens got themselves in this mess (meaning cap hell) by overpaying guys like Steve McNair, Samari Rolle, Trevor Price and most of the other "Over30, over the hill type players." If they would have managed the cap properly, then 800K would seem like chump change. Since we are strapped so tight from past mistakes all we have now is a fairly old team and huge contracts with big signing bonuses that now, we have to pay off. This really isn't about Suggs, but about the Ravens not managing the cap.

cap hell? mess?

We're up against the cap, sure, but we're in no way in cap hell.

How are we different from teams like the Pats, Steelers, Colts etc when it comes to cap management? ALL good playoff teams go up against the cap from time to time. If you want cap hell, take a look down I-95. McNair's number goes away at the end of next season (assuming he goes away). Heap and others will or have agreed to restructure. I thank God we dont do the roster purges like other teams do.

You're over-blowing our cap situation big time. In the age of the cap, you're always going to have years where you're up against a cap number. That's just the nature of doing biz in the NFL.

**ravenwoman** · 03-09-2008, 07:08 AM

We are Number 31 on the list for cap space. I have proved my point and if you don't want to call it "cap hell" so be it. If the Ravens had all kinds of money laying around, 800K would not be a big deal. That is the point I was trying to make. Don't pin it on Suggs. He is just trying to get what he feels he deserves. If you don't think he deserves it, than just say so. Don't go saying the Ravens are brilliant cap managers, because they aren't. Go root for the Texans, where you belong.

**HoustonRaven** · 03-09-2008, 08:40 AM

Good God. Why do you attack when people disagree with you? You need an education on what the cap number means.

Originally Posted by ravenwoman

We are Number 31 on the list for cap space. I have proved my point and if you don't want to call it "cap hell" so be it.

Yes, this year we're high on the list. And next year a bunch of other teams will be at the top of the list. And the year after that, a new set of teams. If you're managing the cap the way you're supposed to, you will float around with your cap space. You act like teams are never supposed to high on that list. If you're high on that list year after year, THEN you have issues.

Originally Posted by ravenwoman

If the Ravens had all kinds of money laying around, 800K would not be a big deal. That is the point I was trying to make. Don't pin it on Suggs. He is just trying to get what he feels he deserves. If you don't think he deserves it, than just say so.

The cap and Suggs has nothing to do with how much money Bisciotti has "laying around" or what player deserves what. Both sides have a legit beef.

Originally Posted by ravenwoman

Don't go saying the Ravens are brilliant cap managers, because they aren't.

Thank you for that insightful and factual analysis. See, when I formulate my thought about which team is or is not cap managers, I use things like facts. Call me crazy but they are quite helpful. You literally might the only person I have ever heard talk about the Ravens in this way. Since the big "blow-up" in 2002, they have done an excellent job as cap managers. Since then, they have never blown their roster with huge cap purges like many other teams.

Originally Posted by ravenwoman

Go root for the Texans, where you belong.

Oy. And now we come to the ad hominim attack -- the last bastion of someone who has lost in a debate. I guess this doesnt surprise me given how hostile you are with people who disagree with you.

Born and raised in Baltimore yet Im supposed to give up my PSL's and root for the Texans after I was asked to move after a huge promotion? Yeah, that sounds really smart. So 8 times a season, I climb on a plane at my own expense and fly in for home games yet my fanhood gets called into questions by someone who his hostile with every Ravens fan who disagrees with her???

**ravensfan1996** · 03-09-2008, 08:49 AM

I agree with the people that said you are making too much of this....

Like someone else said this is ALL business. The Ravens made a business decision to franchise him at the lower salary...(thus saving the team 800k and of course cap space). Suggs and the union filed the grievance for the same business reasons, they feel players should be franchised at the position they played. Suggs may not have even cared, but the UNION im sure let him know.

Suggs works for a Union. The NFL players Union. Usually the union will come to you and say "hey, this is unfair to you and to future players this happens too, so we want you to file a grievance." SO he does, even if he didnt want to, hes obligated by the union to make the union stronger and help other players if this would happen to them. I work in a union and now how it goes.

A grievance is NOT a lawsuit. Unions file grievances all the time, some rightfully so and some knowing they are wrong but just to let the NFL know they dont agree with it, and hopefully some changes come out of filing the grievances over and over.

Anyway, I dont think this is SUGGS vs the Ravens....its business on both sides and from what ive read, suggs might be right.

**psuasskicker** · 03-09-2008, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by ravenwoman

We are Number 31 on the list for cap space. I have proved my point and if you don't want to call it "cap hell" so be it.

#31 on cap list <> cap hell and it's not close.

Originally Posted by ravenwoman

If the Ravens had all kinds of money laying around, 800K would not be a big deal.

This is stupid. You think that successful businesses just throw this kind of money around? $800k here, $800k there, who cares when you generate so much revenue???

It doesn't work that way. Employees try to get paid, businesses try to save money. You think the Ravens should just give all of their players whatever they want the first time they ask for it?

Cap numbers aren't the only thing that dictates what a player will get paid.

- C -

**HoustonRaven** · 03-09-2008, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by psuasskicker

#31 on cap list <> cap hell and it's not close.

This is stupid. You think that successful businesses just throw this kind of money around? $800k here, $800k there, who cares when you generate so much revenue???

It doesn't work that way. Employees try to get paid, businesses try to save money. You think the Ravens should just give all of their players whatever they want the first time they ask for it?

Cap numbers aren't the only thing that dictates what a player will get paid.

- C -

**ClericBlackDave** · 03-10-2008, 05:19 PM

The issue here is that I think people that are "siding" with Suggs think he really is a DE and is justified to file the grievance. And that business is business, which it is.

Those of us not "siding" with Suggs (i'm one of those people) have a few issues

1) I don't think he is a DE, at least last year. My memory says (and it could be wrong) that he rushed mostly w/o a hand in the dirt

2) the grievance to me means that Suggs isn't that serious about getting the longterm deal done. He might be hoping to get the Chris McAlister treatment and get a year or two of franchise money AND a big deal. his agent might have told him thats the best way to get paid. Orlando Pace did the same thing a few years back at OT. C-Mac did it at CB.

3) he has been selected to pro-bowls at LB, definitely played LB his 1st year, is listed everywhere is a LB. Now suddenly, he's a DE? I smell greed . . .

4) Outside of the grievance, I think that Suggs is overrated and looking for more money than he's worth, especially considering the season he had last year.

In any case, I would have rather the team break the bank by now and sign him to the blockbuster deal OR let him go to another team. I still feel that way, and maybe we'll see something happen by draft day.

**UKRaven** · 03-11-2008, 03:28 AM

Good summary Cleric, I am with you on all four points.

I just want to re-state that the Ravens and Suggs (HIS AGENT) were reported as being a LONG way from a deal. I do think we will get a deal done and I'm not sure if we even should now look for a deal!!!

I am reminded that the Ravens are still a relatively new team, other teams have been through this sort of thing before a lot more times than we have. The better teams will not cave in to excessive demands!

**highwater** · 03-11-2008, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by UKRaven

I am reminded that the Ravens are still a relatively new team, other teams have been through this sort of thing before a lot more times than we have.

What? I don't think being a "new team" has anything to do with this issue. Ozzie has been around as long as most GMs in the league. It's not like he's in over his head.

Although, now that you mention it, this is an issue that doesn't seem to come up often -- arguing over what position a guy plays. My first reaction was that the Ravens were unnecessarily playing hardball with Suggs, but the more I think about it, maybe Suggs is the one being cheap, since he is listed as a LB in Pro Bowl voting and other sites.

And I read the other day that Ozzie has ended negotiations with Suggs on a long term deal until this greivance is settled, so perhaps he's a little pissed about this whole thing.

**psuasskicker** · 03-11-2008, 09:10 AM

I am reminded that the Ravens are still a relatively new team, other teams have been through this sort of thing before a lot more times than we have. The better teams will not cave in to excessive demands!

First off, this has nothing to do with anything.

Second, it's not true. This organization is one of the oldest in the NFL.

- C -