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  1. #13

    Re: OT: Chris Redman out playing Matt Ryan



    We are just going to have to agree to disagree about Billick. I think he was pretty good as a HC for a while, but never was very good as an OC. There is no reason the Vikings should have lost with that team they had. They had one of the best O lines in NFL history. The best WR group in NFL history IMO, a great RB. Robert Smith was as good as Emmit. They had a monster short yardage guy as well as big FBs and TEs. Randall was a borderline HOF QB and he had a great season in that offense, and I give him a lot more credit than Billick for that season. Billick was not making the throws. Anyone could have said throw it deep to Moss, but actually making the throw is another story. When he wanted to run the ball, al he had to do was pick a hole and they could block it and Smith could break it.

    The only OC jobs in history that may have as been easy to call were in SF with Montana Young and Rice or Dallas With Aikman Emmit and Irvin.

    What year did Billick do a great job calling plays or even a great job of filling out a depth chart?
    Dennis Green was in charge of the Vikings, Billick did what he told him to do, just like Cavanagh was Billick's biatch/ first scapegoat.

    The other guys, Grback was a decent QB before Brian got a hold of him. He had 4000 yards passing before he got here, and he quit football after 1 year with Billick, on a team that had just won the SB the year before. Do you think Jamal was the only reason we won? That was a top 5 team without Jamal.

    I know a good OC can not spin straw into gold, but they can get much better production than Billick did out the same guys.

    Last year Cam out coached Billick head to head. His team had no defense, no RB, no TE, no Oline and still made some Lemonade out of a Cleo that week because Brian was so afraid to lose the game.

    The Houston Texans last year even with Andre Johnson and Shaub out of action were getting 300 yards passing and solid rushing production from guys named Rosefels and Ron Dayne.

    You have to pick apart a defense with your gameplan and playcalling, not just pound on them until they quit. You have to set them up, trick them, exploit the mismatches. If Billick did that, I did not see it.




  2. #14
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    Re: OT: Chris Redman out playing Matt Ryan

    This may just be yet another name on the long list of QB carrers Billick killed. Redman was left for dead after losing the "competion" with a bad looking rookie Boller. Perhaps he can play, was a solid 3rd round pick and should have gotten a little more of a look.
    I wish I could go back to that camp in time and get back all of the posts screaming for Boller to start over Redman.

    I believe I was one of 2 or 3 people saying Redman should start and Boller should come along slowly. Now everybody thought that was a good idea.




  3. #15

    Re: OT: Chris Redman out playing Matt Ryan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah W View Post
    We are just going to have to agree to disagree about Billick. I think he was pretty good as a HC for a while, but never was very good as an OC. There is no reason the Vikings should have lost with that team they had. They had one of the best O lines in NFL history. The best WR group in NFL history IMO, a great RB. Robert Smith was as good as Emmit. They had a monster short yardage guy as well as big FBs and TEs. Randall was a borderline HOF QB and he had a great season in that offense, and I give him a lot more credit than Billick for that season. Billick was not making the throws. Anyone could have said throw it deep to Moss, but actually making the throw is another story. When he wanted to run the ball, al he had to do was pick a hole and they could block it and Smith could break it.

    The only OC jobs in history that may have as been easy to call were in SF with Montana Young and Rice or Dallas With Aikman Emmit and Irvin.

    What year did Billick do a great job calling plays or even a great job of filling out a depth chart?
    Dennis Green was in charge of the Vikings, Billick did what he told him to do, just like Cavanagh was Billick's biatch/ first scapegoat.

    The other guys, Grback was a decent QB before Brian got a hold of him. He had 4000 yards passing before he got here, and he quit football after 1 year with Billick, on a team that had just won the SB the year before. Do you think Jamal was the only reason we won? That was a top 5 team without Jamal.

    I know a good OC can not spin straw into gold, but they can get much better production than Billick did out the same guys.

    Last year Cam out coached Billick head to head. His team had no defense, no RB, no TE, no Oline and still made some Lemonade out of a Cleo that week because Brian was so afraid to lose the game.

    The Houston Texans last year even with Andre Johnson and Shaub out of action were getting 300 yards passing and solid rushing production from guys named Rosefels and Ron Dayne.

    You have to pick apart a defense with your gameplan and playcalling, not just pound on them until they quit. You have to set them up, trick them, exploit the mismatches. If Billick did that, I did not see it.
    Since we've made our points pretty clear I have a question.

    What kind of improvements are you expecting this year?

    We know units are ranked based on yards which sometimes can be misleading (i.e. Ravens 2000 D being ranked 2nd to Tenn).

    I expect little to no change in the performance of this offense.

    Not because Cameron isn't a good offensive mind. Because the talent isn't here.

    PP




  4. #16

    Re: OT: Chris Redman out playing Matt Ryan

    OK here is the short list of things Brian did that drove me nuts, some of which Cam has already addressed.

    1. Pre snap gamesmanship. Motion, shifts, fasle cadence, audibles. Real audibles where you actually completly change the play not just the direction they run the ball or a change in a hot route.

    2. Showing the D more things to worry about. Screens, Boots, waggles, trickplays, Wr screens and 0 yr hitch routes when we see 8 in the box and a backpeddling CB presnap. The QB almost never rolled out or spreinted out under Brian and almost alway set up in the same depth in the pocket. boller was particuarally horrible about staring down the RB after the handoff instead of carrying out he fake.

    3. Depth chart/ roster management. I still wonder why Jamal or Willis were not in the game on crucial 3rd and 1 and 2 yard situations. I know they get tired after about 3 runs in a row, but sub them on 1st and 2nd down occasionally, but have them in the game for playaction at least when the game is on the line.
    Flynn should not have been starting at C over Jason Brown. We have seen Casey Hampton thow him on top of the Qbs foot on 80% of the snaps. I think that is why Brian fell in love withthe shotgun formation even on 3rd and 1, but if he had put a stronger guy there he could have run.
    Boller starting when he did, staying with him at times when he was just plain awful and we had another live body on the bench. Leaving McNair in game lasy year when he could not take a 3 step drop without fumbling hte ball.
    Wr depth chart has never made sense to me.

    4. strategery in game changing 2:00 situations. Time management. time out management. playing for FGs at half time.

    5. Lack of vertical attack. We have fast guys and strong armed QBs. Just throw the freaking ball down the feild and 3 of the 4 outcomes are in your favor. Interference is the #1 BS call in football we never get because we dont try. Incompete deep passes at least keep the 8th man out of the box.
    We may just actually catch the pass and make a lot of yards or a TD, or they make a pick and the WR is in position to at least make a tackle deep like it was a good punt.

    6. Relationship with the refs. I have seen enough miced up footage on shows like wired and NFL films to know that Brian had a way of wearing out the refs with words witihn the first few phrases. He did not put them in the best state of mind to call an unbiased game. He was kind of Dr Jeckle at the press confrences after the game, but a little Mr Hyde during.

    7. Relationship with the players. I know Jamal and J.O. did not think very much of his offensive ideas, and were not expected/ allowed to make suggestions. He let Ray and the D get a little out of controll in and out of the locker room, and he did not represent or get the respect for his offensive stars that the defensive ones enjoyed. Jamal should have been an LT like superstar after his 2000 yards, and JO should have been as widley discussed and regarded as Munouz or Boselli.

    8. Ego. It was big. It did help build something special here. Eventually it got in the way.

    9. The national media could not stand him, and therefore the Ravens struggled to get any positive airtime or ink. Most of that was directed to Modell, but Brian's personallity was not popular with the chuckleheads.

    10. Stover kicking off to Cribbs 6 times. Could we not have sqiubb kicked or something.
    Go for the freaking TD in Miami, for the love of God.
    Run the Ball against the Colts worst run defense in NFL history, but nasty cover 2 pass rush. We were getting over 5ypc with Jamal in the first half and only 4 carries in the second half.


    I really did like Brian though. He took my calls and heard me out, adrressed my qustions and concerns, even verbally agreed with me most of the time. I think in his heart, he knew I was right, but stubbornly stuck to his guns and went down in a blaze of Harm City Hail.

    His profile of "prudent" play calling was predictable , paleolithic, preposterous.




  5. #17

    Re: OT: Chris Redman out playing Matt Ryan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah W
    I think in his heart, he knew I was right, but stubbornly stuck to his guns and went down in a blaze of Harm City Hail.




  6. #18

    Re: OT: Chris Redman out playing Matt Ryan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah W View Post
    OK here is the short list of things Brian did that drove me nuts, some of which Cam has already addressed.

    1. Pre snap gamesmanship. Motion, shifts, fasle cadence, audibles. Real audibles where you actually completly change the play not just the direction they run the ball or a change in a hot route.

    2. Showing the D more things to worry about. Screens, Boots, waggles, trickplays, Wr screens and 0 yr hitch routes when we see 8 in the box and a backpeddling CB presnap. The QB almost never rolled out or spreinted out under Brian and almost alway set up in the same depth in the pocket. boller was particuarally horrible about staring down the RB after the handoff instead of carrying out he fake.

    3. Depth chart/ roster management. I still wonder why Jamal or Willis were not in the game on crucial 3rd and 1 and 2 yard situations. I know they get tired after about 3 runs in a row, but sub them on 1st and 2nd down occasionally, but have them in the game for playaction at least when the game is on the line.
    Flynn should not have been starting at C over Jason Brown. We have seen Casey Hampton thow him on top of the Qbs foot on 80% of the snaps. I think that is why Brian fell in love withthe shotgun formation even on 3rd and 1, but if he had put a stronger guy there he could have run.
    Boller starting when he did, staying with him at times when he was just plain awful and we had another live body on the bench. Leaving McNair in game lasy year when he could not take a 3 step drop without fumbling hte ball.
    Wr depth chart has never made sense to me.

    4. strategery in game changing 2:00 situations. Time management. time out management. playing for FGs at half time.

    5. Lack of vertical attack. We have fast guys and strong armed QBs. Just throw the freaking ball down the feild and 3 of the 4 outcomes are in your favor. Interference is the #1 BS call in football we never get because we dont try. Incompete deep passes at least keep the 8th man out of the box.
    We may just actually catch the pass and make a lot of yards or a TD, or they make a pick and the WR is in position to at least make a tackle deep like it was a good punt.

    6. Relationship with the refs. I have seen enough miced up footage on shows like wired and NFL films to know that Brian had a way of wearing out the refs with words witihn the first few phrases. He did not put them in the best state of mind to call an unbiased game. He was kind of Dr Jeckle at the press confrences after the game, but a little Mr Hyde during.

    7. Relationship with the players. I know Jamal and J.O. did not think very much of his offensive ideas, and were not expected/ allowed to make suggestions. He let Ray and the D get a little out of controll in and out of the locker room, and he did not represent or get the respect for his offensive stars that the defensive ones enjoyed. Jamal should have been an LT like superstar after his 2000 yards, and JO should have been as widley discussed and regarded as Munouz or Boselli.

    8. Ego. It was big. It did help build something special here. Eventually it got in the way.

    9. The national media could not stand him, and therefore the Ravens struggled to get any positive airtime or ink. Most of that was directed to Modell, but Brian's personallity was not popular with the chuckleheads.

    10. Stover kicking off to Cribbs 6 times. Could we not have sqiubb kicked or something.
    Go for the freaking TD in Miami, for the love of God.
    Run the Ball against the Colts worst run defense in NFL history, but nasty cover 2 pass rush. We were getting over 5ypc with Jamal in the first half and only 4 carries in the second half.


    I really did like Brian though. He took my calls and heard me out, adrressed my qustions and concerns, even verbally agreed with me most of the time. I think in his heart, he knew I was right, but stubbornly stuck to his guns and went down in a blaze of Harm City Hail.

    His profile of "prudent" play calling was predictable , paleolithic, preposterous.
    1. It's up the QBs to audible, not the HC.

    2. Boller stinks.

    3. Ozzie Newsome gives Brian the players. Chris Chester would've gone to guard if Brown was at center. Chester is a joke and everyone knows it. I didn't like Flynn either but why didn't Ozzie get someone better? You think Billick enjoyed playing Flynn?

    4. I agree that time management and play clock management was bad.

    5. 3 of 4 outcomes come out in your favor? That's ridiculous and you know it. That's 75% of the time. You and I both know that's not the case.

    6. Cmon dude. You're grasping at straws now.

    7. Jamal should've been LT like? Did you really just type that? Billick was severely hamstrung by the talent. You will see Cameron deal with the same thing in a month.

    8. The guy has an ego, no doubt. It did wear on people. But not winning games make egos much harder to deal with.

    9. This matters because of what exactly? Who gives a crap if the Ravens get good ink? I certainly don't.

    10. Agreed on Cribbs
    If they don't score in Miami you and every other Billick basher would've roasted him. Why didn't stover make the FG?
    The Colts defense in the playoffs played out of their mind. Ask anyone OC they played against. I do agree that Jamal ran well in the first half and we abandoned the running game too early. But you can damn well be sure that the Colts didn't give a crap about our WR and passing game and stacked the box every play. Sanders basically spied on Jamal.

    Again, the on the field stuff you mentioned sounds great in theory. IMO you'll see what happens this season with this offense. Lack of talent makes many of those things you listed extremely hard to do.

    Some of the other stuff seems like a stretch because Billick obvsiously fell out of favor with you.

    PP




  7. #19

    Re: OT: Chris Redman out playing Matt Ryan

    Quote Originally Posted by purplepoe View Post
    So what?

    The fact that Redman is outperforming Matt Ryan at this point in time isn't an indictment on Matt Ryan.

    He's what, a week or so into his first training camp?

    Are you saying that it's a surprise that this is the case or that Ryan has somehow not lived up to something?

    The point is, almost every single rookie QB is gonna get outperformed in the first week of camp by a veteran.

    Substitute Troy Smith for Boller in my post. Doesn't matter.

    PP
    My point was nothing other than that it was in no way like Boller (or Smith) outplaying Flacco. If for no other reason than Flacco was widely considered a project, and Ryan considered the "most NFL ready" of the rookies.

    I'm not following Ryan's progress even a little bit, so I'm nowhere near educated enough to say whether Ryan's been a disappointment or not.

    You're gonna be sorely disappointed when you see what the real problem with this offense is because it's still here.
    LOL... Great line...I might steal it from you...



    The Colts defense in the playoffs played out of their mind. Ask anyone OC they played against.
    Didn't they hold the Chiefs to 14 points or something like that? The o/u on that game was like 52 (after opening at like 49) and everyone thought it was gonna be "last one holding the ball wins". That was Larry Johnson's monster year and the Chiefs offense was dominant, and the Colts D just shut it down... The Colts D played incredibly well in the playoffs...shockingly so...

    - C -




  8. #20
    Join Date
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    Re: OT: Chris Redman out playing Matt Ryan

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    I wish I could go back to that camp in time and get back all of the posts screaming for Boller to start over Redman.

    I believe I was one of 2 or 3 people saying Redman should start and Boller should come along slowly. Now everybody thought that was a good idea.
    I was there with ya...




  9. #21

    Re: OT: Chris Redman out playing Matt Ryan

    Quote Originally Posted by psuasskicker View Post

    Didn't they hold the Chiefs to 14 points or something like that? The o/u on that game was like 52 (after opening at like 49) and everyone thought it was gonna be "last one holding the ball wins". That was Larry Johnson's monster year and the Chiefs offense was dominant, and the Colts D just shut it down... The Colts D played incredibly well in the playoffs...shockingly so...

    - C -
    They did play a lot better in the playoffs, but when teams really commited tot he run despite the 8 man fronts they did it well. By then Peyton started to play well though and they were on a roll.

    For some reason the Cheifs did not stick with LJ the same way we did not stick with jamal. That was made it so frustrating. They saw KC fall into the same Tapma 2 trap. sanders would roam and cover a whole lot of ground, but they played the same defense on almost every play. Cover 2 man or zone with the SS flying into the box on run looks if he does not lineup there in the frst place.
    This is a look that encourages you to pass into it, but that is what they are waiting on scrificing yardage for potential turnovers.
    They did not, and still do not have the defensive personell to hold up vs a good run attack for 60 minutes. Sanders is almost ruined already by making so many sticks. They are going to have to get a DT tandem like we have if they are going to continue in that scheme but htey have almost everything else.
    That Colts game was basically all I could stand from Billick. I just could not understand how he could not give Jamal 20 second half carries vs that D with 50 in the first half. They had no answer for the Pashos 100 pound mismatch and Ovie Mughelli mashing the littlle LBs. The only guy who had a chance to drop Jamal 1 on 1 was Sanders and they were getting some blocking on him in the first half.

    I still don't think I unfairly turned on Billick. There was a lot of ups and downs before I just could not see letting him coach the offense. i did not think he needed to be fired, at least until I got to see some of the things Harbaugh has changed already in camp.




  10. #22

    Re: OT: Chris Redman out playing Matt Ryan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah W View Post

    I still don't think I unfairly turned on Billick. There was a lot of ups and downs before I just could not see letting him coach the offense. i did not think he needed to be fired, at least until I got to see some of the things Harbaugh has changed already in camp.
    This blows my mind.

    A week of camp and you're convinced about what exactly?

    This offensive line is in complete shambles right now.

    You can say "it'll be fine by week 1" all you want but the fact of the matter is that we've got major issues at both tackle spots. We've got major issues at QB. We've got major issues at WR.

    Are we really gonna go down that road of believing what we see in training camp?

    You know, where Travis Taylor was a world beater and Kyle Boller looked great? Ron Johnson caught everything and Patrick Johnson was ready to break out?

    Sorry, but a week of full team practice with a rash of injured players doesn't show me much of anything.

    PP




  11. #23

    Re: OT: Chris Redman out playing Matt Ryan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah W View Post
    They did play a lot better in the playoffs, but when teams really commited tot he run despite the 8 man fronts they did it well. By then Peyton started to play well though and they were on a roll.

    For some reason the Cheifs did not stick with LJ the same way we did not stick with jamal. That was made it so frustrating. They saw KC fall into the same Tapma 2 trap. sanders would roam and cover a whole lot of ground, but they played the same defense on almost every play. Cover 2 man or zone with the SS flying into the box on run looks if he does not lineup there in the frst place.
    Are you insane? The Chiefs didn't stick with the run cause LJ averaged 2.4 YPC in a year he ran for almost 1,800 yards and 17 TDs. The Chiefs offense, which was a good one, scored 8 points (not 14 like I originally thought). Granted we abandoned the run too early but it's not like we were killing it on the ground...Jamal only averaged 4 per carry. The Pats averaged 3.9 per carry. The Bears were the only team that ran well against them, but they got the sh*t kicked out of them, and if I remember right it was mostly on one or two runs.

    This is a team that was DEAD LAST against the run in the regular season, allowing 5.3 per carry.

    Seriously, don't talk about something as if you know it when you're clearly blowing smoke out your ass. The Colts weren't doing it with smoke and mirrors in the playoffs. They flat out played defense a LOT better in the playoffs than in the regular season, and that includes against the run where up to the Superbowl they allowed less than 4 per carry vs. the regular season where they allowed over 5.

    And it's not like it was an anomoly...he carried it through to this past year's regular season where they only allowed 3.8 per carry.

    That wasn't a result of 8 man fronts. That was a result of some key defensive members getting healthy and the unit gelling completely...

    - C -




  12. #24

    Re: OT: Chris Redman out playing Matt Ryan

    Quote Originally Posted by purplepoe View Post
    Kinda like Boller outplaying Flacco?

    PP
    More like Troy Smith outplaying Joe Flacco. Outside of his first day debacle, Troy's been solid. And has been outstanding the past couple days, especially this morning when he was VERY sharp. He WILL start next week against the patriots.

    Boller has looked very... mediocre thus far. Flacco & Boller have looked about the same. But Flacco has already shown signs of improvement.

    Right now its Smith, Boller, then Flacco.




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