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  1. #1
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    The stimulus will fail...



    because it is too small. I am going to pass the argument on to argueably one of the most respected contemporary economists of today. Just some background on Paul Krugman first:

    Mr. Krugman received his B.A. from Yale University in 1974 and his Ph.D. from MIT in 1977. He has taught at Yale, MIT and Stanford. At MIT he became the Ford International Professor of Economics. On October 13, 2008, it was announced that Mr. Krugman would receive the Nobel Prize in Economics.

    It's easy to lose one's objectivity with the way the media works. I always look to credentials because I respect education and the awards individuals earn with their work. No one on this board can even begin to say they have a fucking clue as to what will work economically. We have to turn to individuals that have demonstrated achievement in the field. Paul Krugman certainly has met those criteria. I have been reading his stuff for about a year now and trying to measure his ideas.

    You guys can parrot talkimng points about only tax-cuts working period and put up links to Fox Noise commentators (with no credentials - believe them if that is what works for you) pointing out elementary style graphs and make gross generalizations like socialism NEVER works...Keynesianism has never worked but there is no substance there. Socialism and Keynesianism have been around longer than we have been. I bet there are examples of them working. Are they perfect? No. But there are places and times where those principles have worked.

    Back to Krugman's blog from today and some points worth pondering:

    The Congressional Budget Office, not usually given to hyperbole, predicts that over the next three years there will be a $2.9 trillion gap between what the economy could produce and what it will actually produce. And $800 billion, while it sounds like a lot of money, isn’t nearly enough to bridge that chasm. - This puts the stim amount into proper perspective.

    How about the idea of this huge deficit and how the republicans would avoid it?

    It’s “generational theft,” said Senator John McCain, just a few days after voting for tax cuts that would, over the next decade, have cost about four times as much. - in other words fine readers, the argument really ain't about increasing the deficit through spending.

    AND:

    But it’s now clear that the party’s (republican) commitment to deep voodoo — enforced, in part, by pressure groups that stand ready to run primary challengers against heretics — is as strong as ever. In both the House and the Senate, the vast majority of Republicans rallied behind the idea that the appropriate response to the abject failure of the Bush administration’s tax cuts is more Bush-style tax cuts.

    AND:

    And the rhetorical response of conservatives to the stimulus plan — which will, it’s worth bearing in mind, cost substantially less than either the Bush administration’s $2 trillion in tax cuts or the $1 trillion and counting spent in Iraq — has bordered on the deranged.

    Krugman's analysis:

    These aren’t normal times, so normal political standards don’t apply: Mr. Obama’s victory feels more than a bit like defeat. The stimulus bill looks helpful but inadequate, especially when combined with a disappointing plan for rescuing the banks. And the politics of the stimulus fight have made nonsense of Mr. Obama’s postpartisan dreams.

    What the risk truly is is that the stim is too small. The politics occurring are that the Republicans could distrupt Obama's true plan with a meager two votes in the senate. And they did. Why? Because after 8 years of failed republican economic strategies of tax cuts for the top 1%, deregulation of vital markets and mismanged wars, wouldn't it be just horrible for the GOP if Obama and the democrats came in a through progressive and conscientious policy turned the nation around? With their 2 meager senate votes they were able to divert the stim bill just enough to maybe dilute its effectiveness. Country first my friends!

    Keep listening to Oxycontin Rush, Apocalptic Glenn, Calamity Sean, Mann Coulter and the rest of the wealthy 1% as they continue to ride their fortunes at your expense.

    Do it in the name of God or do it in the name of pseudo-libertarian bullshit paranoia but just know that you continue to ignore the Nobel Prize winners because your pundits tell you they are elitist, they tell you they are unpatriotic, they tell you they are nazi-socialist communist fascists AND you just bought their 7th book of recycled ideas that haven't changed since the first because Yes! you think for yourself!. They like being rich and they truly appreciate your continued efforts to keep them rich.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/op...gman.html?_r=2


    The new GOP Slogan
    Last edited by Galen Sevinne; 02-13-2009 at 03:30 PM.








  2. #2

    Re: The stimulus will fail...

    I'm so sorry that we rely on history to attempt to predict the future.

    Again for the one millionth time, sicne you are so sure it has succeeded in the past, please enlighten us to when and where these ridiculous spending principles have EVER worked anywhere in history.

    As has been shown MANY times, smart tax cuts COUPLED WITH A REDUCTION IN SPENDING, is PROVEN to pull countries out of hard times like this. Since Socialism and Keynesian principles have been around so long, they MUST have worked at least once RIGHT?




  3. #3
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    Re: The stimulus will fail...

    First, what JB79 said

    Secondly, I'd much rather look to history and listen to those whom have actually been a participant of the economy as opposed to someone teaching it and getting awards for touting their economic test-tube theories.

    I'll ask as well though, what examples do you have of it working?




  4. #4

    Re: The stimulus will fail...

    Quote Originally Posted by Khaine View Post
    First, what JB79 said

    Secondly, I'd much rather look to history and listen to those whom have actually been a participant of the economy as opposed to someone teaching it and getting awards for touting their economic test-tube theories.

    I'll ask as well though, what examples do you have of it working?
    Funny you put it that way, as in a way, it's how I look back on my college education. It was a fun time, and I learned some general principles, but in all reality, I was learning vaguely reality based theories from peopel tha hadn't really put any of them into action at any point in their lives. Business classes from people who never ran a business,and computer programming from people that hadn't designed a piece of usable software. I learned more about accounting from reading financial statements of a car dealership i managed then from 3 semesters of Accounting classes.

    Too much theory, not enough practical applications.




  5. #5
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    Re: The stimulus will fail...

    How about I ask this question none of the liberals will answer I ask.

    Can you please name one nation, business or person that ever spent it's/their way to prosperity?

    Just one.




  6. #6
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    Re: The stimulus will fail...

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    How about I ask this question none of the liberals will answer I ask.

    Can you please name one nation, business or person that ever spent it's/their way to prosperity?

    Just one.
    Is that an intended softball?

    United States

    Just start with education then go to infrastructure...two basic fundamental spending projects that have created wealth in this country. Do you really think spending/investing is always some wacked communist plot to steal your freedoms? You need to join HR in that hut I found for him in Montana...I think the beginnings of a manifesto are even carved into a table there for you guys.








  7. #7
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    Re: The stimulus will fail...

    Just start with education then go to infrastructure...two basic fundamental spending projects that have created wealth in this country.
    What was the percentage of GDP those things cost while the USA was creating wealth? HINT: We were creating wealth when we were a lender nation. We are and have been increasing debt for a long while.

    Second, what percentage of the budget are these things now and what were they when, again, we are acquiring wealth instead of spending it? How much of the money we are spending now is going to investment? That was my point, this money is being blown on garbage.

    And finally, these things didn't create wealth. Businesses in this country created wealth.

    The government education system in this country blows. The best schools are not the government ones. That money is wasted, for the most part. It costs a lot more per student in government schools that suck in comparison to private schools that do not.




  8. #8

    Re: The stimulus will fail...

    once again, Galen was asked a question and failed to reply,,, So Galen,,, What country ever spent its way out of a recession,,, What communist country has ever been successful? Universal health care???? Its horrible in every country its been tried. It discourages people from becoming doctors for crappy wages....
    You get the consumer to spend by letting him or her keep more of thier own money,,,,How???????????? Tax cuts Duh




  9. #9
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    Re: The stimulus will fail...

    As if Krugman is not biased ....

    There is a reason that states like Texas, Florida, etc are doing better than most. No State Income Tax.

    People have more money, they spend more money, thus the economy in my state is about as bullet proof as it can be in this recession. Same with my sisters adoptive state of Florida.

    Now flip the coin -- states that have huge tax burdons (CA and NY) are laying off workers, cutting all kinds of programs, etc.

    The conomy is doing fine on its own fixing itself. But this monster spending bill will likely pass, the economy will fix itself and the Dems will crow it was all their doing, never once having to explain how -- now or then -- because of their buddies in the media.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  10. #10
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    Re: The stimulus will fail...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    As if Krugman is not biased ....

    There is a reason that states like Texas, Florida, etc are doing better than most. No State Income Tax.

    People have more money, they spend more money, thus the economy in my state is about as bullet proof as it can be in this recession. Same with my sisters adoptive state of Florida.

    Now flip the coin -- states that have huge tax burdons (CA and NY and MD ) are laying off workers, cutting all kinds of programs, etc.

    The economy is doing fine on its own fixing itself. But this monster spending bill will likely pass, the economy will fix itself and the Dems will crow it was all their doing, never once having to explain how -- now or then -- because of their buddies in the media.




  11. #11
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    Re: The stimulus will fail...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post

    There is a reason that states like Texas, Florida, etc are doing better than most. No State Income Tax.
    Really? Florida relies mostly on being the vacation capital of the U.S. which is really not a fair comparison. They recoup their taxes in many other ways. Florida also has one of the highest foreclosure rates in the country and maybe you missed Gov. Crist being first in line for his stimulus check

    Texas relies on taxes from oil which are drying up so quickly that if something isn't changed within the next two years, Texas will face the highest deficit ever by a state. Taxes are coming your way, my friend.








  12. #12
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    Re: The stimulus will fail...

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    Really? Florida relies mostly on being the vacation capital of the U.S. which is really not a fair comparison. They recoup their taxes in many other ways. Florida also has one of the highest foreclosure rates in the country and maybe you missed Gov. Crist being first in line for his stimulus check
    Every state has foreclosures. So I guess I should not be surprised you're mixing apples and oranges in a lame attempt to make a point.

    I am going to let you in on a little secret. Texas and Florida have the same social services as any other large population state. But they do not have the same economic troubles as other state because the tax burden on the public is much lower. Combine the lower taxes (property and no state income burden) with a higher consumption tax (tolls, 8.5% sales tax, etc.) and the state has all the funds it needs. The state becomes dependent on the people being well off -- if the people lose money, so does the state and the state goes to great lengths the people do ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    Texas relies on taxes from oil which are drying up so quickly that if something isn't changed within the next two years, Texas will face the highest deficit ever by a state. Taxes are coming your way, my friend.
    Wrong. I realize that's what Kos has told you to believe, but farming and cattle is by far the top money maker for the state, with cotton being the biggest cash crop in the state. "Oil" ranks 4th behind farming, aeronautics and IT. And again, your math just does not add up. If Texas was so reliant on oil income, please explain to me how the state makes any money with gas being so cheap these days?

    There was this dude in the state senate that tried to propose a state income tax wen I first moved here. He got zero votes and was quickly voted out of office. Not one member of his own party voted for him -- not surprising, he was a Democrat from Dallas.

    Texas will never institute a state income tax because all the politicians here, Dem and GOP alike understand the fundamentals of economics -- if the people have more money, they spend more money and that leads to economic stability.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




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