Another slant on the WR question

**awalt** · 06-05-2009, 09:10 AM

I just happened to be looking at the 2007 year. As you all know, we drafted Yamon Figurs at #74, 3rd round. Even at the time that was considered a reach except possibly if you considered his electric game breaking return skills into the equation (which have largely been invisible in the NFL).

Anyway - picked at #142, in the FIFTH round, was Steve Breaston of Michigan. Arizona picked him, and probably most of you know he has turned out to be a rising star with great potential.

I went back and read Kiper's book for that year, not that he is the supreme evaluator but it's the book I have...

Breaston also was known more for his return skills, ran a 4.41 and is 6-0 1/4, 190. He leveled off quite a bit in his senior year, which I am sure hurt his draft position.

As a 3rd year sophomore, in the Rose Bowl against Texas he had 5 returns for 221, and 3 catches for 77 yards including a 50 yard TD. Junior year he only started 7 of 11 games, caught 26 balls, 29 punts returned/12.3 avg, 23 kickoffs/28.1 average. Solid not spectacular by any stretch.

Senior year he started 12 games, 58 catches for 670 yards and 2 scores, 11.4 avg on punts and 22 yards on kickoffs.

Kiper had him rated the 22nd best WR in the draft, a likely 5th or 6th round pick (but two slots ahead of Figurs). He said he is explosive, made some big catches and some spectacular catches, but he had a tendency to disappear in games. He said he "hopes" he can come around to make a contribution as a WR but he's worth a pick because of his return skills.

I look back, remember what we read and saw on youtube with Figurs, and I say at the time Figurs has more potential. I look now and it's gone 180 degrees the other way.

I suspect the Ravens probably don't scout in person very much at Michigan (have we drafted anyone from there), because paper and film would likely not show what this guy is capable of. More importantly this shows how tough talent evaluation really is.

But we lost a good one there...

**Jeremiah W** · 06-05-2009, 09:30 AM

We whiffed on Steve Smith too and every one passed on Ponytail and Colston 7 times.

The fail rate of drafted Wrs is high and sometimes superstars slip undrafted.

As long as our QB, O line and runners perform well, we can line up street free agents at Wr and win, or the guys we have can shine. As a unit they were pretty good in 2006, and this year the other parts on O look a lot better and so should the pass attack.

Just a little better accuracy from a Qb can do a lot for a WR. Instead of going up and getting killed, they can catch in stride and get YAC. A lot of the big pass plays from Indy and the Pats are short crossing patterns that are just perfectly timed and thrown. We have guys that can run after the catch in space, but have not had a Qb that can make the most of the talent becaue they are smallish the windows are smaller and the throws have to be better, but just a little bit of improved accuracy goes a long way to making average WRs look very good and good Wrs look great.

**srobert96** · 06-05-2009, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by awalt

I just happened to be looking at the 2007 year. As you all know, we drafted Yamon Figurs at #74, 3rd round. Even at the time that was considered a reach except possibly if you considered his electric game breaking return skills into the equation (which have largely been invisible in the NFL).

Anyway - picked at #142, in the FIFTH round, was Steve Breaston of Michigan. Arizona picked him, and probably most of you know he has turned out to be a rising star with great potential.

I went back and read Kiper's book for that year, not that he is the supreme evaluator but it's the book I have...

Breaston also was known more for his return skills, ran a 4.41 and is 6-0 1/4, 190. He leveled off quite a bit in his senior year, which I am sure hurt his draft position.

As a 3rd year sophomore, in the Rose Bowl against Texas he had 5 returns for 221, and 3 catches for 77 yards including a 50 yard TD. Junior year he only started 7 of 11 games, caught 26 balls, 29 punts returned/12.3 avg, 23 kickoffs/28.1 average. Solid not spectacular by any stretch.

Senior year he started 12 games, 58 catches for 670 yards and 2 scores, 11.4 avg on punts and 22 yards on kickoffs.

Kiper had him rated the 22nd best WR in the draft, a likely 5th or 6th round pick (but two slots ahead of Figurs). He said he is explosive, made some big catches and some spectacular catches, but he had a tendency to disappear in games. He said he "hopes" he can come around to make a contribution as a WR but he's worth a pick because of his return skills.

I look back, remember what we read and saw on youtube with Figurs, and I say at the time Figurs has more potential. I look now and it's gone 180 degrees the other way.

I suspect the Ravens probably don't scout in person very much at Michigan (have we drafted anyone from there), because paper and film would likely not show what this guy is capable of. More importantly this shows how tough talent evaluation really is.

But we lost a good one there...

Prescott Burgess came from Michigan. Breaston also have the benefit of playing with a team that has probably the best WR in the league. A team that can't run the ball and relies heavily on passing. He also has the benefit of being the 3rd wr and always getting single coverage.

**psuasskicker** · 06-05-2009, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Jeremiah W

We whiffed on Steve Smith too and every one passed on Ponytail and Colston 7 times.

The fail rate of drafted Wrs is high and sometimes superstars slip undrafted.

Yeah, plus it's not like it was either Figurs or Breaston. Eight other teams between when we took Figurs and AZ took Breaston missed out on Breaston too because they took other WRs...

- C -

**JimZipCode** · 06-05-2009, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Jeremiah W

Just a little better accuracy from a Qb can do a lot for a WR. Instead of going up and getting killed, they can catch in stride and get YAC. A lot of the big pass plays from Indy and the Pats are short crossing patterns that are just perfectly timed and thrown. We have guys that can run after the catch in space, but have not had a Qb that can make the most of the talent becaue they are smallish the windows are smaller and the throws have to be better, but just a little bit of improved accuracy goes a long way to making average WRs look very good and good Wrs look great.

Great post.

**baltimore_hokie** · 06-05-2009, 02:11 PM

post-combine analysis off Scout:

Figurs
Pos:
Swift, elusive ball handler who affects the game as a return specialist or wide receiver. Intelligent football player who knows where he is on the field. Sharp route-runner who stays low exiting breaks and gets separation from defenders. Adjusts to the errant throw and gets vertical for the difficult reception. Consistently gets into the clearing and makes himself an available target. Makes the reception in stride downfield.

Neg:
More quick than fast, and does not play to his times speed. Lacks strength at the point, gets minimal results as a blocker and loses out in battles. Unnecessarily lets the pass get inside him.

Breaston
Pos:
Elusive ball handler also effective returning punts. Quick releasing into routes, runs well laterally and extends to pluck the ball from the air. Uses his frame to protect the throw, displays good concentration and is tough to catch in the open field. Nicely adjusts to the errant throw.

Neg:
More quick than fast and lacks the second gear. Not strong in any aspect of the game. Has always been the second fiddle in the Michigan offense.

They seem pretty damn similar and, yeah, we did reach on figurs there, but we took yanda, l-train mcclain, and antwan barnes in between the figurs pick and when breaston was taken. here is the list of other WR's that went in between those two picks:

75. Atlanta - Laurent Robinson, WR Illinois State
76. San Francisco - Jason Hill, WR Washingtin State
78. Green Bay - James Jones, WR San Jose State
79. Jacksonville - Mike Walker, WR Central Florida
80. Tennessee - Paul Williams, WR Fresno State
99. Oakland (compensatory) - Johnnie Lee Higgins, WR UTEP
118. Carolina - Ryne Robinson, WR Miami (OH)
128. Tennessee (from Baltimore) - Chris Davis, WR Florida State

yeah, so i think i would take two solid contributors and one pro bowler over breaston or any of the other bust WR's taken in that range. the colston and breaston (although breaston really hasn't done shit yet) picks really can't be called anything but lucky and if you look at the QB situations in those respective situations, it seems they may be more products of their situations.

**awalt** · 06-05-2009, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by baltimore_hokie

although breaston really hasn't done shit yet

What???? How about 77 receptions in his rookie year, and more importantly 13 receptions in the postseason including 6 in the SB? He had to (a) run good routes (b) get open (c) catch the ball (d) get the QB's confidence. We have seen a ton of WRs not able to do that on any team in any situation.

You can say all you want about him being the 3rd WR on that team but short of Mason we have NO ONE who has done that, and Figurs probably never will...

**baltimore_hokie** · 06-05-2009, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by awalt

What???? How about 77 receptions in his rookie year, and more importantly 13 receptions in the postseason including 6 in the SB? He had to (a) run good routes (b) get open (c) catch the ball (d) get the QB's confidence. We have seen a ton of WRs not able to do that on any team in any situation.

You can say all you want about him being the 3rd WR on that team but short of Mason we have NO ONE who has done that, and Figurs probably never will...

wow, yeah didn't realize he had that many yards last season. the easy response here is that a shitload of WR's would have that many catches and yards with boldin and fitzgerald, perhaps two of the top 5 WR's in the game, on the field with them every play. i would still take our four picks of figurs, yanda, mcclain, and barnes over having him. i watched a few of their games this past season and saw him make some plays against nickel corners and no safety help, a situation he wouldn't be warranted as the #1 or #2 receiver in our offense.

my major point was that it is a crap shoot getting WR's in the late rounds and having a good or great QB and system will heavily increase those odds.

**awalt** · 06-05-2009, 03:31 PM

So why haven't we ever had a slot or 3rd WR catch even 50 balls? Mason was double teamed especially in the playoffs....I don't think it's as easy as you suggest....

**baltimore_hokie** · 06-05-2009, 03:40 PM

mason was doubled in the playoffs, but there's really no need to double any of our other WR's. most teams have a guy that can blanket clayton without needing help over the top. the same is not true for almost every team in the league with fitz OR Q. those guys demand double teams on every play in the secondary, so there's your top two corners and safeties on most plays. in their defense, a lack of a running game does allow LB's to help on underneath routes for extra support, but then again you are just matching a guy with 4.4 speed against a linebacker on those drags. if you watch their games, especially compared to cavenaugh's offense in previous years, the WR's play so wide open that it doesn't look right. the way that anquan and fitz bring the entire secondary toward them leaves gaping holes in the secondary for a third guy to step in. im not trying to take away a 1000 yard rookie season, but this guy had it very easy in a talented WR corps in a pass-heavy (to say the least) offense with a gread OC at the helm. i wouldn't expect the same from him on any other team in the league, except for maybe new england.

**Rxdoxx** · 06-05-2009, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by baltimore_hokie

post-combine analysis off Scout:

Figurs
Pos:
Swift, elusive ball handler who affects the game as a return specialist or wide receiver. Intelligent football player who knows where he is on the field. Sharp route-runner who stays low exiting breaks and gets separation from defenders. Adjusts to the errant throw and gets vertical for the difficult reception. Consistently gets into the clearing and makes himself an available target. Makes the reception in stride downfield.

Neg:
More quick than fast, and does not play to his times speed. Lacks strength at the point, gets minimal results as a blocker and loses out in battles. Unnecessarily lets the pass get inside him.

Breaston
Pos:
Elusive ball handler also effective returning punts. Quick releasing into routes, runs well laterally and extends to pluck the ball from the air. Uses his frame to protect the throw, displays good concentration and is tough to catch in the open field. Nicely adjusts to the errant throw.

So with 20-20 hindsight the clues on Figurs were there...

Intelligent football player who knows where he is on the field.
Intelligent football player who also knows where the hits are going to come from

Consistently gets into the clearing (vs Breason Uses his frame to protect the throw)

Lacks strength at the point, gets minimal results as a blocker and loses out in battles.

I now see a lack of toughness, came in as a dynamic speedster, took a couple of shots and no Wizard Of OZ to award a courage medal to the cowardly lion to turn it around.

**wickedsolo** · 06-05-2009, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by baltimore_hokie

post-combine analysis off Scout:

Figurs
Pos:
Swift, elusive ball handler who affects the game as a return specialist or wide receiver. Intelligent football player who knows where he is on the field. Sharp route-runner who stays low exiting breaks and gets separation from defenders. Adjusts to the errant throw and gets vertical for the difficult reception. Consistently gets into the clearing and makes himself an available target. Makes the reception in stride downfield.

Neg:
More quick than fast, and does not play to his times speed. Lacks strength at the point, gets minimal results as a blocker and loses out in battles. Unnecessarily lets the pass get inside him.

Breaston
Pos:
Elusive ball handler also effective returning punts. Quick releasing into routes, runs well laterally and extends to pluck the ball from the air. Uses his frame to protect the throw, displays good concentration and is tough to catch in the open field. Nicely adjusts to the errant throw.

Neg:
More quick than fast and lacks the second gear. Not strong in any aspect of the game. Has always been the second fiddle in the Michigan offense.

They seem pretty damn similar and, yeah, we did reach on figurs there, but we took yanda, l-train mcclain, and antwan barnes in between the figurs pick and when breaston was taken. here is the list of other WR's that went in between those two picks:

75. Atlanta - Laurent Robinson, WR Illinois State
76. San Francisco - Jason Hill, WR Washingtin State
78. Green Bay - James Jones, WR San Jose State
79. Jacksonville - Mike Walker, WR Central Florida
80. Tennessee - Paul Williams, WR Fresno State
99. Oakland (compensatory) - Johnnie Lee Higgins, WR UTEP
118. Carolina - Ryne Robinson, WR Miami (OH)
128. Tennessee (from Baltimore) - Chris Davis, WR Florida State

yeah, so i think i would take two solid contributors and one pro bowler over breaston or any of the other bust WR's taken in that range. the colston and breaston (although breaston really hasn't done shit yet) picks really can't be called anything but lucky and if you look at the QB situations in those respective situations, it seems they may be more products of their situations.

Out of that crew, other than Breaston, I would have liked to have seen James Jones or Jason Hill. I think Jason Hill is going to be very good.

**wickedsolo** · 06-06-2009, 06:26 PM

Word is that they really liked Robiskie from this past season, but they weren't willing to give up multiple picks to move up and take him in the 2nd round.

Robiskie would have been really sweet.

**CDiPiranha** · 06-08-2009, 11:23 AM

Incidentally, Breaston's productive season was in his SECOND season, not his rookie campaign. Breaston basically was just a return-guy as a rook.

As it was stated previously, Breaston has benefitted greatly from playing in a wide-open offense with one of the most accurate spread-QBs ever (Kurt Warner). He also has benefitted from Fitz & Q as starters, and benefits tremendously from the offensive structure & philosophy of the Cards (pass-happy with no real rushing attack).

One thing that obviously is a positive of Breaston is his ability to acclimate to the offense and to be ready in whatever role he is utilized in. He was very good as a 3rd or 4th option when both starting wideouts were healthy AND he was also more than solid enough to play in a starting role when Q went out due to injury twice this past season.

For the poster (awalt I believe) that asked why we never have seemed to have a productive #3 or #4 wideout, ask yourself if we've had the QB for that to occur OR have we even run the type of offense that would allow that to occur...

as I see it and have said on other fanboards, this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. If anything, Todd Heap has been basically our slot-receiver for the better part of our existence, so you probably can substitute his receiving production for what a wide receiver-oriented team might get from its 3rd wideout.

Breaston does seem to be a solid pro wideout, while Figurs may be fighting for his life as a Raven -- that's just the way it is. Sometimes you can pull out a gem in the mid to late-rds and sometimes you miss in the same area.

I'll take our track-record of unearthing gems on Day-2 of the draft (or undrafted gems) over missing on particular guys like Breaston, TJ Housh, Colston or whomever.

.02 from "Unpaid-Scout"C DiP