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  1. #97
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    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??



    This was never a discussion about race. Maybe you should read the thread before condemning it.

    If you have a racial axe to grind, perhaps you should start your own thread.


    WORLD CHAMPIONS 2000 * 2012





  2. #98

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Quote Originally Posted by camdenyard View Post
    This was never a discussion about race. Maybe you should read the thread before condemning it.

    If you have a racial axe to grind, perhaps you should start your own thread.
    I am responding directly to your words, I don't have an axe to grind. What I said is true. 50's values WERE all about white middle class. To invoke the "good ol' days" (which you didn't, specifically,) ... who were they good for? WASPS, only. These were NOT good Ol' days for blacks. I'm simply saying, those days were NOT very moral, when you consider the pain and injustice inflicted by those "morals"! The two cannot be seperated, and should NOT be something we hold up for a shining light!
    As to the other post about this being the worst thread, and post, I was referring to the post, in this thread, someone said "we should be able to nominate the worst post.....", as they were arguing a post... It was my attempt at humor, since psychology majors, minors, and amateurs were trying to solve the world's social downfalls here.... on this pro football site...




  3. #99

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    50's values WERE all about white middle class. To invoke the "good ol' days" (which you didn't, specifically,) ... who were they good for? WASPS, only. These were NOT good Ol' days for blacks. I'm simply saying, those days were NOT very moral, when you consider the pain and injustice inflicted by those "morals"! The two cannot be seperated, and should NOT be something we hold up for a shining light!
    Sure you can. You can take the good and bad from anything.

    Want to talk about a huge dividing point between the races? The War of Northern Aggression.
    Slavery was one reason for the war, which we all agree is a bad thing.
    States Rights was another reason for the war which, depending on your political leanings, is a good thing.
    Slavery = Bad.
    States Rights = Good.
    This is a novel I was asked to proofread. The author is giving 10% of the profits to kidney research, which is a big deal in the Darb household. Fair warning; it's a fantasy novel, and the main characters are lesbians. It's three bucks on kindle from Amazon.http://www.amazon.com/WINDOWS-BROKEN...ken+fairy+tale




  4. #100

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    But don't get it twisted, people fall on hard times and its often not their fault.
    Often Dave? I'd go with occasionally not their fault.

    You cited one example of bad luck leading to homelessness. Want me to go through the examples of people I know who are hovering right around the poverty line who have children, aren't married, and didn't go to college/graduate high school?

    And yes Dave not graduating high school is a choice, as is having multiple children by multiple partners.

    In any case, people like Greg who state studies and statistics as "facts" are usually people who dont' like to recognize that studies are often political and baised, and people who just need to take a few simple social science statistic classes to realize that data can be made to look like what the funders want.
    While people who attempt to ignore those studies are often those people who can't provide any studies to validate their own stance.

    Show me a study that says high school graduates are just as likely to be living at the poverty level as those who didn't graduate high school.
    This is a novel I was asked to proofread. The author is giving 10% of the profits to kidney research, which is a big deal in the Darb household. Fair warning; it's a fantasy novel, and the main characters are lesbians. It's three bucks on kindle from Amazon.http://www.amazon.com/WINDOWS-BROKEN...ken+fairy+tale




  5. #101

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Darb, you restrained yourself from chiming in on this learned debate for so long, I am surprised you gave in.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  6. #102

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    HOWEVER, those stories and situations are dwarfed by the situations caused by poor decisions.

    Evidence, please.


    Give me something other than your opinion to substantiate such a statement as "truth"


    And please, don't throw an economist article at me, so I can point out who funded it, and their agenda. And the fact that how you collect, permeutate, and report data is an inherently political process.


    I'm not invalidating anyone's opinions. But don't state opinion as "fact" or say "Dave, Greg is right". If everyone agreed with Greg, there wouldn't be politics, or two political parties, or multiple points of view


    But honestly, I all of this is neither here nor there in terms of what this is really about.


    When it comes down to it, people in America feel enough sense of entitlement to state their point of view as "fact". And its seemingly impossible to make them see it otherwise.


    If you were like me and in the business of creating studies and statistics like Greg's little Economist article, you'd understand what goes into making a number or statistic and exactly why a number like "199 out of 200" wreaks of bullshit.




  7. #103

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Quote Originally Posted by ClericBlackDave View Post
    Evidence, please.


    Give me something other than your opinion to substantiate such a statement as "truth"


    And please, don't throw an economist article at me, so I can point out who funded it, and their agenda. And the fact that how you collect, permeutate, and report data is an inherently political process.


    I'm not invalidating anyone's opinions. But don't state opinion as "fact" or say "Dave, Greg is right". If everyone agreed with Greg, there wouldn't be politics, or two political parties, or multiple points of view


    But honestly, I all of this is neither here nor there in terms of what this is really about.


    When it comes down to it, people in America feel enough sense of entitlement to state their point of view as "fact". And its seemingly impossible to make them see it otherwise.


    If you were like me and in the business of creating studies and statistics like Greg's little Economist article, you'd understand what goes into making a number or statistic and exactly why a number like "199 out of 200" wreaks of bullshit.

    Reality Dave.

    That's the evidence.

    You sit there with your degree and create studies to do exactly what? Try to debunk any study which provides data that you don't particularly agree with?

    You're condescending tone is hilarious. "If you were like me.......".

    Im NOT like you. I don't sit in a bubble and ignore what the hell is going on around me.

    You're "evidence" was bringing up an extreme case where someone was shot in the head with a shotgun. I haven't seen anyone here say that person should be fine and not have serious issues.

    I don't need a study that's approved by CBD to know that a case like that is not even close to the norm.

    But keep spewing your rhetoric about skewed data, selection bias etc....

    Meanwhile, alot of us will deal with reality while you scoff at the notion.

    PP




  8. #104

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Quote Originally Posted by ClericBlackDave View Post
    a number like "199 out of 200" wreaks of bullshit.
    I think you mean "reeks."

    As I understand your point, Dave, you are saying that Greg's 199 out of 200 presents a couple of problems. You are *not* saying Greg's position is _wrong_ as (to borrow your language) a fact. You are instead pointing out what you see as flaws in the form of his argument, saying:

    1. Calculating "199 out of 200" is not as simple as walking outside, looking for people pushing shopping carts around downtown, and asking 200 of them a series of questions. "Studies" can be, innocently or otherwise, bent, and indeed creating a true and complete study like what we hope the FDA does before approving drugs is exceedingly burdensome and we should not take it on faith that it was done by The Economist. After all, it hardly ever is.

    2. Even *assuming* 199 out of 200 people in poverty have the four following criteria in common: 1. hold the same job 2. get a high school education 3. keep the same spouse 4. get out of poverty, even then it is not, strictly speaking, logically automatic that factors 1, 2, and 3 *cause* factor 4. What if, for instance, 599 out of 600 people in poverty who hold the same job over the same span get out of poverty? Does that mean of those holding a job, they should get divorced to increase their chances from 199/200 to 599/600? Or of the 199 out of 200 who get out of poverty, 40% know how to swim, but of the remaining 1 out of 200, only 5% know how to swim? Should people learn to swim? My point being, even if the *numbers* are "true" in some cosmic sense, we can order them in different ways depending on our desired outcome.

    Dave, correct me if I am wrong, but I think the point of your argument really has almost nothing to do with real issues of poverty, and more to do with statistics and the form of logic and debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by purplepoe View Post
    Meanwhile, a lot of us will deal with reality while you scoff at the notion.
    We live in our different realities. Dave isn't saying you are wrong, I don't think, he's just saying, it's not that simple. As often as I think he knows nothing about football , I admire him for sticking to his guns in this thread. Let's just try to stay away from repetition. . .
    Last edited by festivus; 03-16-2007 at 09:44 AM.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  9. #105
    Join Date
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    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Long story short, he's disfigured, has a plate over the front of his head, had mental problems from said brain damage and is homeless.
    Dude, this is a ridiculous example, if you are going to mix in people who have emotional and mental problems go ahead. I assume we were talking about the able bodied who decide that getting a job and keeping it and not having scads of out-of-wedlock children is not for them and then wonder why they are poor.

    As for the 50s, yes there was racism but it would be possible to encourage nuclear families that are stable without invoking the racism of the times. I have no idea why anybody would think the two are tied at the hip. But let's look at the black family in the 1950s. A lot more fathers in the home, a lot less crime committed by and against them, a lot less children out of wedlock, etc. I can guarantee you this without looking at any data, blacks that aren't in poverty for the most part have graduated HS, gotten jobs and avoided children out of wedlock.




  10. #106

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Darb, you restrained yourself from chiming in on this learned debate for so long, I am surprised you gave in.
    It's not chiming in on the "debate" itself, it's an annoying habit of mine having to correct people when they're wrong. Makes my married life a lot more entertaining than it really should be.

    If people here want to start throwing degrees around, then I'll win. Mine is in a stainless steel frame with bullet proof glass. That thing is dangerous and unbreakable.
    Last edited by darb72; 03-16-2007 at 10:58 PM.
    This is a novel I was asked to proofread. The author is giving 10% of the profits to kidney research, which is a big deal in the Darb household. Fair warning; it's a fantasy novel, and the main characters are lesbians. It's three bucks on kindle from Amazon.http://www.amazon.com/WINDOWS-BROKEN...ken+fairy+tale




  11. #107

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    While people who attempt to ignore those studies are often those people who can't provide any studies to validate their own stance.

    Show me a study that says high school graduates are just as likely to be living at the poverty level as those who didn't graduate high school.

    That wasn't my claim. My claim is that it isn't that simple (thank you festivus).


    You can't state these things as "rules" or as "fact". If you think the example I gave is the exception to the rule, you probably need to interact with homeless people more: volunteering is a good way.


    But people stating statistics as fact . . . whatever floats your boat. But there are studies out there that "prove" a variety on contradicting views. This is why we have politics or discussions of this sort.


    Its like arguing over, say, you know who at the QB position. Different stats will say different things, and people on different sides will use said stats to prove that their point is "fact"


    When in reality, its more of an opinion that you're supporting with a statistic that you hope is more or less based on fact.


    For that matter, there is nothing worse than mistaking correlation with causation.


    As for "wreaks" v. "reeks" I dont really proof read these things. I proofread a lot of things, just not message board posts. If I notice the errors after I read the thread again, then I edit.


    All this said, I'll stop beating this dead horse here.




  12. #108

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Quote Originally Posted by ClericBlackDave View Post


    All this said, I'll stop beating this dead horse here.
    We all thank you.

    PP




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