The John Harbaugh Debate Thread (Merged Threads)

[StingerNLG]

Jim Harbaugh was the ravens quarterback in 1998. John Harbaugh is currently the ravens head coach(2008-present). But why? How? After all, hes a special teams coach. How does a special teams coach get a head coaching position with no experience on offense or defense? Simple, his brother was once a player for the team.

Ok, I just want to be sure here. I want to be 100% I am reading this correctly. Ozzie Newsome and Steve Bischotti interviewed a number of candidates for the head coaching job. And in the end, instead of listening to what they had to say, or looking at their skills/strengths/etc:, they chose John Harbaugh as the head coach because 14 years ago his brother Jim spent two years as the QB?

Now, I consider myself a reasonable man. I have gone a long way in my life as a forum poster, going back almost a decade among multiple places. And I have strived in the last couple years to allow people to express their opinions and let them go. But I am only human.

This has to be in almost a decade, the most rediculous......ludicris........I'm really attempting not to be a hypocrite on my own modding so I will stop there.........thing I have ever heard. There is no shred of evidence that the owner and general manager of a multi-million dollar professional sports franchise could possibly be so inept and so bass-ackwards that they would only hire a head coach of a winning and want-to-be-champion team because his brother spent a little bit of time playing for the team.

I have actually heard it all, and I've lived through the "great Boller wars" of 2003-2007. This tops everything.

I wanted to stop reading here. But I just could not stop myself.

John seems to be a very likeable/nice person. And on paper he looks like a very good head coach. But what does he do for this team?

Besides the playoffs every year since arriving? Since the AFC Championship game in 2008? Besides not posting a single losing season yet?

Now lets look at offense
Joe Flacco
Ray Rice
Anquan Boldin
Marshal Yanda
Ben Grubbs

2 of them are from Billick, Q is a FA, Ray rice was an excellent pick and Joe Flacco still has not panned out(albeit a very good quarterback. Consistency though...)

Our drafts have sucked since he has been here.


38-19 in the regular season
4-3 in the playoffs

Regular season, he seems to be great. But how much credit can he take for those wins? Our defense wins our games. Without it, we are nothing.

For starters, someone else please remind me who hands the draft card into Roger? I'm pretty sure that is Ozzie. I'm fairly sure while the head coach has some input into who he'd like to have, the final say goes with the man in charge of personell.

Second, so if our defense was nothing who would you be blaming? I have a feeling you'd be blaming Harbaugh no matter what. So that's a lost cause.

And not that it matters, explain how Flacco hasn't "panned out". Other than a winning record, career 60% passing %, 68TD's to 39INT's, and more wins than losses. Oh, he hasn't won a Superbowl yet. Gotcha. All QB's should have a ring by year 3, right. Yes, Tom Brady and Ben Rothlisberger do. So that means if Joe Flacco doesn't he hasn't "panned out"? Wow, someone better inform Peyton and Drew that they didn't pan out for YEARS then! In fact, that guy Dan Marino? He's never going to pan out either.

2008: We went to the playoffs because: Willis McGahee, LeRon McClain and Lorenzo Neal
2009: We went to the playoffs because: Ray Rice had a monster year
2010: We went to the playoffs because: Ray Rice and Joe Flacco was limiting his turnovers
2011: ?

Wait, didn't you just say we won because of our defense? But now we got to the playoffs because of offensive players?

And still, no credit to Harbaugh for anything. Ok.

Again, I wanted to stop reading. It's bedtime for me, but I can't stop now!

Lets just analyze the wins and losses of this year.

Oh, lets......

Week 1: Pittsburgh at Baltimore
Baltimore wins 35-7
Defense forces 7 turnovers. This is the key stat. Not Joe Flacco's 3 TD's, not ray rices 2 TD's. I dont care how good or bad your offense may be, if you force 7 turnovers, you will win the game. No matter how you look at it, that is 7 offensive drives that the opponent was unable to score on. You only get so many chances in 60 minutes. Ray Rice had 19 rushing attempts.

Again, I'm tired, so I don't want to misread. The 35 points put up by the Ravens offense was not a factor here. Just throw those away, this was all defense here. Right?

Week 2: Baltimore at Tennessee
Tennessee wins 26-13
Kenny Britt and Matt Hasslebeck torches our secondary for 300+ yards and a couple of TD's. Our offense is stagnant. Ray Rice runs the ball 13 times. The ravens lack any pass rush. I am OK with calling this a letdown game and pinning it on the team as a whole. The coach can only do so much to motivate.

What?? And I thought our defense wins games.

Week 3: Baltimore at St. Louis
Baltimore wins 37-7
Torrey Smiths first 3 receptions as a pro are for TD's(all over 20 yards). Why could he do this may you ask? Not being in the gameplan. The ravens lucked out here, because how can you gameplan for something you have never seen the opposition use before? Regardless it was fun to watch but we will never see anything like that again. Ray Rice had 9 rushing attempts

Torrey threw those 3 TD's to himself huh? That's right, Joe was on the sideline not "panning out".

But no. This was all "luck". It's was like being in Vegas baby!! The good luck Ravens!!! With Torrey "Snake-eyes" Smith. Gameplan? How on earth does an opposing coach possibly gameplan for a rookie WR with almost no NFL experience? Why it's unheard of!

Week 4: NYJ at Baltimore
Baltimore wins 34-17
10/31 163 Yards 1 INT
Thats the statline for ravens QB Joe Flacco. Pathetic. Completely pathetic. This game was won solely on defense. 3 Defensive touchdowns in one game. Not much else to discuss about this game. Ray Rice had 25 rushing attempts.

K, The Jets game I'd give you.

Week 5: Bye

Week 6: Houston at Baltimore
Baltimore wins 29-14
Baltimore had a pretty good day offensively and Ray Rice set the tone with a 100+ yard rushing performance on 23 carries. Joe Flacco made plays when he had to and the defense did its usual job.

This is impossible. Joe Flacco hasn't "panned out". He should not be doing this.

I'm going to stop there. So far you haven't made a case at all for why Harbaugh is not a HC. Despite of course the wins, and the playoffs, and all that was mentioned before.

Oh wait, you are getting there. Sorry, I'll press on.

John Harbaugh is not a HC. He doesnt have the balls to make the hard decisions(tell Cam to fuck off), he always wastes TO's(I cannot recall the last time the ravens had 3 TO's in the 2 minute offense)

I'll give you Cam. But the TO's aren't always called by him. In fact, they are rarely called by him. It's usually the players calling the TO's. But ok. 50% is ok to argue with I guess.

and he has a knack for calling wrong challenges or not challenging at all.

Except of course this year when he has won all but one challenge (which was the one Sunday). But who's counting THIS year?

Like said in another thread, Bisciotti gave Billick his approval 2 weeks before he was canned.

And Billick had multiple losing seasons and a 5-11 season to lead up to that. Explain again how you have been able to draw the comparison?


I must say I enjoyed reading this. It reminds me that while I am in a crossroads of questioning the Raven's ability to play a home game in the playoffs this year, I am at least still rational enough to know my team's head coach didn't win his job because a relative far removed from his playing days led the team to a 6-10 record and lost his job to Eric Zeier.....so his brother had the inside track on all the other candidates for the position. Thank you for this post. It is just what I needed.

[JeromeBettis63]

You truely are lost in this thread, if Harbs listened to fans Cam would have been gone 2 years ago. He would have been in Cams ass to run the ball, and so many other things....
Your back on the gatorade bath dude. Seriously? Your better than that. Harbs got a shower last year in week 1 against the Jets. Sorry your team is to cool to have humor.

O'yeah and thats right your team has never had locker room issues from leaders or leaders making absurd comments.
Study and then come back.

Here's the thing...saying he got a gatorade bath in another game doesn't really help your argument, it helps mine. And saying, "your team does it too" isn't actually an answer. It would get you an F in a freshman debate class. I don't expect you to agree, but at least offer actual arguments against my point if you are going to respond.

Essentially what I am saying is this...championship teams have a particular attitude. They tend to take on the characteristics of their coach and leaders. The difference between winning and losing can sometimes be the smallest of things in the NFL. The right leadership is one of those things. I'm thinking that hasn't been demonstrated as of late by Coach Harbaugh for the reasons I stated.

[EternalRavensDefense]

Man, it always give me a good laugh to read Ravens' fans post after a lost. It is right up there with Browns fans and the despair that they are stuck in.

[Sua Sponte]

Here's the thing...saying he got a gatorade bath in another game doesn't really help your argument, it helps mine. And saying, "your team does it too" isn't actually an answer. It would get you an F in a freshman debate class. I don't expect you to agree, but at least offer actual arguments against my point if you are going to respond.

Essentially what I am saying is this...championship teams have a particular attitude. They tend to take on the characteristics of their coach and leaders. The difference between winning and losing can sometimes be the smallest of things in the NFL. The right leadership is one of those things. I'm thinking that hasn't been demonstrated as of late by Coach Harbaugh for the reasons I stated.

Why are you still on the gatorade bath? Are you saying it was classless? Or just stupid because it was against the Steelers. I am just merely pointing out that the team has giving Harbs a gatorade bath in other games. Some of your fans were on here making claim that is was our SB and all sorts of BS. Are you trying to say it was premature or unworthy of G-bath. If so I would agree, even though I don't see much wrong with it.

I guess you are refering to the locker room (your team does it too). I didn't see you ask a question in your entire statement. I was pointing out that every team has locker room issues. I don't see players calling each other out. So, besides Harbs lame PR's I'm not concerned yet, another bad lose and it becomes an issue.

Next time you are trying to make a point of a team carrying the attitude of the coach just say it.
You refered to the coach listening to the fans and making decisions which I showed you was false..

I agree with part of your statement Harbs attitude sucks at times and he looks lost/confused/over his head, etc..

[ActualSpamBot]

Sting, I'm glad you did a line by line because I KNOW I wouldn't have had your restraint.

Personally, I think John got the job because Steve had spent most of the afternoon watching Hardball with Chris Matthews and he was struck by how much Harbaugh sounded like Hardball.

Don't laugh, that totally makes as much sense as the Jim was our QB we should totally hire his little brother theory.

[darb72]

I read it. True it was only what Sting quoted but I read it.

Much like Mjolnir, I thought it would take the strength of a god to raise the bar of stupidity to a loftier level. Perhaps that assumption was correct. Maybe a god, grown weary after eons of indifference, has descended from the pantheon in corporeal form intent on proving their greatness.

If so, I submit most humbly that all posters bow and grovel in fear of being bound to a rock until Ragnarok loosens all fetters.

[JeromeBettis63]

Why are you still on the gatorade bath? Are you saying it was classless? Or just stupid because it was against the Steelers. I am just merely pointing out that the team has giving Harbs a gatorade bath in other games. Some of your fans were on here making claim that is was our SB and all sorts of BS. Are you trying to say it was premature or unworthy of G-bath. If so I would agree, even though I don't see much wrong with it.

I guess you are refering to the locker room (your team does it too). I didn't see you ask a question in your entire statement. I was pointing out that every team has locker room issues. I don't see players calling each other out. So, besides Harbs lame PR's I'm not concerned yet, another bad lose and it becomes an issue.

Next time you are trying to make a point of a team carrying the attitude of the coach just say it.
You refered to the coach listening to the fans and making decisions which I showed you was false..

I agree with part of your statement Harbs attitude sucks at times and he looks lost/confused/over his head, etc..

I am saying the gatorade bath represents a mindset. In my opinion its not the mindset of a championship team. I think it is part of some systemic issues for your team. I think Harbs pressers reveal that.

[JimZipCode]

The obsession with refs is telling.

What obsession with refs?


The Gatorade bath is a much less potent symbol than you think. First, the coaches don't organize it, so it really doesn't say anything about what Harbaugh encourages or doesn't encoruage. But secondly, and mainly, the Ravens players do it to mark small symbolic victories that might be personally important for the coach whom they douse. It's not always the HC either.

Couple years ago they doused Cam Cameron late in a win at Miami. Miami was the team that fired him, so they celebrated for him. There have been other Gatorade baths for other assistant coaches, I forget the details.

I don't know what milestone they were celebrating for Harbaugh when they dunked him. Maybe his first reg season sweep of the Steelers? Anyway: no big deal either way.

[Ravenous1]

I do not take to much stock in Harbaugh attempting to defend the run/pass ratio in Sundays game, its just one of those things that coaches are conditioned to do. Besides by blaming Cam its almost like damming himself, its would be like admitting that he has no input into the offensive play calling or game planning. No way John is gonna do that. Cant say I blame him. To be honest I could care less if John thinks they were right, wrong or otherwise. I only care that it changes from this point forward.

This is not just a John Harbaugh thing, the rest of the organization signed off on Cam being the offensive coordinator for better or for worse and we all know its primarily been the later. If John does not have the good sense to reign in Cam and go through that playbook/IPAD with a red sharpie then someone named Ozzie needs to sit John down or sit them both down and set things straight. Its not ok to just go ......well there is Cam just being Cam and waste a golden opportunity to position ourselves for a Super Bowl run. I just don't get the Cam cant go in mid season idea, if he cant get with the program then good riddance. I cannot imagine in my wildest dreams that Wilbur Montgomery or just about anyone else on that staff would have Joe throw 52 times and Ray Rice run the rock 5 times. I have a hard time imagining a worse game plan. Hell Pete Carrol did everything but mail a thank you card. Keep Cam, fire Cam, tie him up and stuff him in a locker and have someone wear a Cam mask and call the plays... I dont care Just FIX IT. Don't let this opportunity go to waste.

[acisking]

John Harbaugh and Joe Flacco have won more games than any other coach/qb pair in the league during their respective tenures. I feel like posters overlook how consistently good this team has been over the last few years. And that's with limited offensive personnel as well. The grass may appear greener if we move on from these two, but we may come to realize in time how good we we've had it as fans these past 4 seasons.

[elland]

Great post Sting.. Btw Jim had only one year here, which obviously made all the difference, what a year this 1998, sigh.

Landspeed: Seriously how insane do you think Ozzie and our FO is? How stupid is our owner.. A job interview in the NFL is not a casual one hour thing multiltiply it with 48 and then some, hardly brother to Jim, good luck and fortune could do the job.

John Harbaugh had an obvious talent for ST, however he has also experience as RB, TE, LB and DB coach, he has been coaching for more than 27 years, his teachers was some of the very great and he is defintive not only a ST-coach.

As a HC he has already did a remarkable job and record setting - seems he is not done - he migth set one this season which will stand for years to come. His contract ends in 2014, like it or not he will more than likely be there to at least that day.

Coaching staff only TE coach remains from the Billick era and recruiting good talented position coaches is not an easy thing, he has some of the very best.. Cam is obvious without talent in Baltimore.. I believe that is not the reasoning in the national media, I believe some of the latest like Pees, Monarchino and Austin helped Pagano a lot.

Offense: Like it or not it improved from the Billick era, and Billick offense had pretty good players and leaders on offense.. JO, Jamal, Heap, Mason.

Defense: Had to do some tough things, like change the attitude and cutting players, and now his third DC.. how many teams can continue to be in the top five when you change DC.

[Ngata Nother Suggs]

My God darb72 is obnoxious. I guess the good ol' boys of the board get a pass with their personal insults of other posters.

Anyway, remember that Harbaugh got a glowing recomendation from Bill Belichick. He told the Ravens that he would be a good hire, and that a lot of practical coaching experience was overrated. I'm sure that had a lot to do with the decision to hire him. That and he was cheap while they were still paying Billick.

[jgar]

Harbaugh is the head coach. He needs to act like one. His job is to make sure we have some sort of balanced attack. The problem is he has too many ties with Cam. Cam gave him his first coaching job. Ozzie or Biscotti need to intervene soon.
Cam is always trying to outsmart his opponents. Well 3 times this year it has backfired. Run the ball to set up the pass please! This passing to set up the run is not the Ravens identity.
Cam will be here till seasons end. Then he will be looking for another job. It is a shame that we have put together this team and can't steer it in the right direction.

[middleriverterp]

Had to watch the game in a sports bar in Portsmouth, NH and had a long drive home to think about our team. Do coordinators learn their style from their HCs. If so, can we expect a team that will consistently make the playoffs but lacks the "killer instinct" and HC acumen to seal the deal and get to and win the Superbowl. I know that we should be very happy that we have gone to the playoffs 3 years in a row and a lot of NFL cities would kill for that record, but when our primary rival has been twice and won one in the same time frame it tends to cloud your judgement.

[HoustonRaven]

Coach speak and nothing more.

Next.

[Captain Offense]

There is a constant thread that people expect a HC to verbalize everything so the fans are happy that their feelings are validated. Most of the comments are the last thing that would realistically happen in the real world, and would suggest a lack of a "foxhole" mentality. What is on the surface does mean it is what is real; otherwise "tell-all" books would not be popular.

I am an attorney. If I opened an office I could not cover all of the areas of the law because some are not in my menu. I would hire associates with a focus in those areas. I would not at any time intervene to tell them how to do their line of work. I would control how they deal with clients, the business practices and the costs, but if it came down to a client versus the associate, I would publicly support the latter unless it was an offense that caused termination. I may rip them a new one behind closed doors, but it would not be in front of the staff either. And if how they handled their line of work was questionable, eventually they are gone. Coming out in the public and ripping your people is a recipe for disaster.

I watched the sidelines at the Cardinals game. In the first half, I saw Harbaugh slowly wander near Cameron, then stop and I saw his lips move. Cameron picked his head up suddenly, then put it down and stared at his sheet without moving. Harbaugh just stood there moving his lips, then turned around abruptly and walked up the sideline. He never looked on the field, and was staring toward the endzone. My impression was that he was controlled in what he was saying and how he was saying it. Was he giving any comments without giving any video for discussion? Who knows?

There are some issues under the surface. The team is 6-3 right now. If they go 4-3, then they are 10-6. If they find a way to push past any boiling issue, then it could be better. The challenge to Harbaugh right now is to find a way to pull all of this together and avoid a meltdown. There are a ton of egos bouncing off the walls of all of the rooms in Owings Mills.

[GOTA]

I am saying the gatorade bath represents a mindset. In my opinion its not the mindset of a championship team. I think it is part of some systemic issues for your team. I think Harbs pressers reveal that.

I agree with you. It was way over the top and not something a team that expects to win a Championship would do.

[Ngata Da Vida]

I am saying the gatorade bath represents a mindset. In my opinion its not the mindset of a championship team. I think it is part of some systemic issues for your team. I think Harbs pressers reveal that.

This is spot on. I'm relatively new here, so my troll ears were up, but I think this is an absolute honest assessment.

John Harbaugh is incapable of PREPARING FOR SUCCESS, and it trickles down (I wonder if he is altogether ignored in some circles in the locker room). I am curious as to your take from a Steeler bent - do you think the talent is there, and it is the leadership that is failing?

[Corey]

Andy Reid has been to a Superbowl. And they lost by 3 points to the Cheatriots. There is a very good chance that the Eagles were victims of spygate.

Having said that I'd prefer to think of the Ravens as the next group of Colts instead of Eagles lite. How many times in a row did the Colts have 10+ win seasons and make the playoffs before finally reaching and winning a Superbowl? It was like 6.

The problem for Ravens fans isnt even that the Steelers have won it recently. It's that we've got aging players whose windows are closing, Ray and Ed namely. Ravens fans seem to feel like if we don't win it while they are still here its no point. I'd love to see those guys get rings, especially Ed, but I disagree. If we win before they retire thats great but if its after they are gone.... thats great to.

[saintmatthew]

Anyway, remember that Harbaugh got a glowing recomendation from Bill Belichick. He told the Ravens that he would be a good hire, and that a lot of practical coaching experience was overrated.

Maybe Bellicheat was just trying to stack the AFC deck in his favor.....