The John Harbaugh Debate Thread (Merged Threads)

[StingerNLG]

Guys, we're getting multiple threads on the same issue here. So all Harbaugh hate threads are going here.

Again, not complaining about it. Agree or disagree, people have the right to complain about the HC. I'm just consolidating it. Apologies to anyone who feels their thread was violated by this. It's nothing personal.

Also, for the love of stuffing (anyone see South Park last week?), please stop with the insults to each other! There is no need for it. Attack the post, NOT the poster. Or ignore the post (even better). Enough is enough!!!!

[Dave Lap]

. Ozzi is why Harbs looks good

Good players are almost always why coaches look good in the NFL. You can't win without 'em.

[wickedsolo]

Revisionist history. Reed had never fumbled before the Steeler game. 34 kick returns, zero fumbles. So, any "history of fumbleitis" goes back an entire week. Period.

[TL24x7]

2 cents from a 1 cent mind...

Whether it’s sports or business or even at home one of the more important things that a teammate, co-worker or family member should possess is accountability.

Everyone makes mistakes and the only way any of the above gets better as a unit is to identify, admit to and work to correct those mistakes.

Humility is an understated quality. Some are afraid to admit mistakes because they believe it represents weakness which ultimately leads to disrespect. It’s quite the opposite if you ask me. Having the guts to man up and admit the error of your ways and commit to correcting them shows far more character than sticking your head in the sand and pretending the screw ups either didn’t happen or fail to acknowledge their occurrences.

What does that accomplish?

We’re all very well aware of the puzzling dearth of touches for Ray Rice during the team’s 3 road losses. In Tennessee Rice had 18 chances to advance the ball (13 rushes, 5 receptions); in Jacksonville the number fell to 13 (8,5); and then this past Sunday the number again hit 13 touches (5, 8).

Harbaugh vowed after the debacle in Jacksonville that Rice would run it more but that hasn’t really happened.

Down by 12 at half to the 29th ranked offense in the league that puts up an average of 16 points a game, the Ravens ran the ball just once – ONE TIME in the second half during the 34 offensive snaps taken after intermission.

During his weekly Monday presser a chippy John Harbaugh defended the team’s decision to shut down the rushing attack.

"I don't know how you would do it any differently," Harbaugh said. "We were in a situation where we lost two possessions. When you don't have very many plays, it's hard to build up your running game. And when you're down, you've got to throw it to get back in the game.”

Down 12 coach to the Seahawks…THE SEAHAWKS and TAVARIS JACKSON! And you are really trying to justify 33 throws v. 1 run?

Really?

No one is buying what Harbs is selling and let’s just hope he’s more humble in front of his players.

After the game Ray Rice declined interview requests, saying he would reserve his comments until Wednesday. "I don't want to say the wrong thing right now.”

Naturally everyone is blaming the play caller Cam Cameron. Did Cameron miss all those open receivers? Did Cameron drop all those passes? Did Cameron fumble 2 kickoff returns? Did Cameron fail to force a punt when the Ravens had the great Tavaris Jackson on the ropes facing a first and 20 from his own 10 yard line?

Rhetorical questions for sure and I’m not here to defend Cameron’s play calling or his handling of Joe Flacco. There’s plenty of blame there.

But if John Harbaugh is more involved in the offense this year as he promised during the offseason it stands to reason that if Cameron truly was directing the offense and ignoring his playmaker running back that Harbaugh at any time could step in and say, “Hey Cam, we need to get the ball in Ray’s hands.”

So if we’re to take Harbaugh at his word – that he’s more involved in the offense and that he believes the game situation necessitated the play calling that went down, then the Ravens are in trouble.

If he’s just giving lip service to the media and in turn the fans, then he’s disrespectful and is lacking in accountability.

And if he delivers this same insulting spin to his players and means it, how can he ask them to be accountable when he is not?

LINK

[Knox Harrington]

2 cents from a 1 cent mind...

Whether it’s sports or business or even at home one of the more important things that a teammate, co-worker or family member should possess is accountability.

Everyone makes mistakes and the only way any of the above gets better as a unit is to identify, admit to and work to correct those mistakes.

Humility is an understated quality. Some are afraid to admit mistakes because they believe it represents weakness which ultimately leads to disrespect. It’s quite the opposite if you ask me. Having the guts to man up and admit the error of your ways and commit to correcting them shows far more character than sticking your head in the sand and pretending the screw ups either didn’t happen or fail to acknowledge their occurrences.

What does that accomplish?

We’re all very well aware of the puzzling dearth of touches for Ray Rice during the team’s 3 road losses. In Tennessee Rice had 18 chances to advance the ball (13 rushes, 5 receptions); in Jacksonville the number fell to 13 (8,5); and then this past Sunday the number again hit 13 touches (5, 8).

Harbaugh vowed after the debacle in Jacksonville that Rice would run it more but that hasn’t really happened.

Down by 12 at half to the 29th ranked offense in the league that puts up an average of 16 points a game, the Ravens ran the ball just once – ONE TIME in the second half during the 34 offensive snaps taken after intermission.

During his weekly Monday presser a chippy John Harbaugh defended the team’s decision to shut down the rushing attack.

"I don't know how you would do it any differently," Harbaugh said. "We were in a situation where we lost two possessions. When you don't have very many plays, it's hard to build up your running game. And when you're down, you've got to throw it to get back in the game.”

Down 12 coach to the Seahawks…THE SEAHAWKS and TAVARIS JACKSON! And you are really trying to justify 33 throws v. 1 run?

Really?

No one is buying what Harbs is selling and let’s just hope he’s more humble in front of his players.

After the game Ray Rice declined interview requests, saying he would reserve his comments until Wednesday. "I don't want to say the wrong thing right now.”

Naturally everyone is blaming the play caller Cam Cameron. Did Cameron miss all those open receivers? Did Cameron drop all those passes? Did Cameron fumble 2 kickoff returns? Did Cameron fail to force a punt when the Ravens had the great Tavaris Jackson on the ropes facing a first and 20 from his own 10 yard line?

Rhetorical questions for sure and I’m not here to defend Cameron’s play calling or his handling of Joe Flacco. There’s plenty of blame there.

But if John Harbaugh is more involved in the offense this year as he promised during the offseason it stands to reason that if Cameron truly was directing the offense and ignoring his playmaker running back that Harbaugh at any time could step in and say, “Hey Cam, we need to get the ball in Ray’s hands.”

So if we’re to take Harbaugh at his word – that he’s more involved in the offense and that he believes the game situation necessitated the play calling that went down, then the Ravens are in trouble.

If he’s just giving lip service to the media and in turn the fans, then he’s disrespectful and is lacking in accountability.

And if he delivers this same insulting spin to his players and means it, how can he ask them to be accountable when he is not?

LINK

This is very well put Tony.

I think we're gonna see the players dictate how the offense orchestrates itself from here on out. I have to think Bisciotti & Ozzie aren't gonna let those 2 Steeler wins pass the franchise by. My gut tells me that the players will have a lot more say on what plays are called here on out.

I remember a couple of weeks back listening to Wally Williams talk about how players will trust the coaches up to a certain point, but once that trust is gone and their season on the line they'll take it upon themselves to see what plays are called.

[JimZipCode]

I remember a couple of weeks back listening to Wally Williams talk about how players will trust the coaches up to a certain point, but once that trust is gone and their season on the line they'll take it upon themselves to see what plays are called.

Like Trent Dilfer and Shannon Sharpe did in the Super Bowl year.

[Paintballguy]

2 cents from a 1 cent mind...

LINK

I agree with this 100%. I don't see how you can justify passing that much.

[Ravenswintitle]

Nice article Tony.

And if the CAM thread could also be merged into one you sure would have a clean board

[lobachevsky]

Information request: Does anyone know--

1. What the Ravens' usual schedule when preparing for a home game? Any practices on Saturday? Any activity Sunday morning?
2. Same question re away games, plus, do they ever practice after they arrive? Curfews, bed checks?
3. There are 3 outdoor fields & one indoor field at The Castle. Anyone know what surface they have on each?

I have this nagging feeling there is some systematic factor affecting those road losses, & I'm just gathering data for consideration. Thanx in advance.

[landspeed]

It's obvious who is to credit for the Colts success. It aint the coach. Not fair to compare anyone to whomever is the Colts coach while Peyton is the QB. He could make anyone look like a good coach.

Overall I think Harbaugh has a done a good job. Today's loss was more execution than game plan. If Reed hadn't fumbled twice to give up 6 easy points this would have been a different game.

It is as well obvious as to who is running the show for the Ravens. Were dependent on Ray Lewis and his ability to carry this defense. Not John Harbaugh, noe Joe Flacco but Ray Lewis. He is the true coach of this team.

[Iscull]

The NFL is never, "no way".

I would put some serious money down that the Steelers will not make it to the superbowl this year. I said the same thing about the Philadelphia Eagles before the season began and I stand by it.

[Corey]

Here's the thing...saying he got a gatorade bath in another game doesn't really help your argument, it helps mine. And saying, "your team does it too" isn't actually an answer. It would get you an F in a freshman debate class. I don't expect you to agree, but at least offer actual arguments against my point if you are going to respond.

Essentially what I am saying is this...championship teams have a particular attitude. They tend to take on the characteristics of their coach and leaders. The difference between winning and losing can sometimes be the smallest of things in the NFL. The right leadership is one of those things. I'm thinking that hasn't been demonstrated as of late by Coach Harbaugh for the reasons I stated.

Three things....

1) A coach's demeanor has nothing to do with winning championships, unless he's a guy that panics at every corner. Billick was one of the biggest jackasses in the NFL for years, as a Steeler fan I am sure you can agree with that and he was a championship winner. Billick was probably as opposite Belchick as you could get.

2) The way you perceive Harbaugh is going to be taken with a grain of salt because you don't watch him all that often. Compared to Billick, he's much more of the Belichick, I am not saying anything mode.

3) Get over the gatorade bath. It's a team commarderie thing that OUR team does. Just because the Steelers don't do it does not make it wrong. The Ravens give gatorade bath's a few times per season and they don't all go to Harbaugh. For example, in 2008 the Ravens gave Willie Anderson a gatorade bath after beating Cinci, Bengal fans were pissed. They gave Cameron one the same year after beating Miami, Dolphin fans were pissed. I don't know if they did it for Q, vs. Arizona but he did get a game ball. When guys on the Ravens get revenge vs. their former team or get over a hump the team shows them love for it. Whether its a gatorade bath, a game ball, or naming them team captain for the day (he did that for McGahee when we played Buffalo). It's something that they just do. Just like Tomlin standing at the locker room door shaking every players hand after a win.

[MattSG]

Three things....

1) A coach's demeanor has nothing to do with winning championships, unless he's a guy that panics at every corner. Billick was one of the biggest jackasses in the NFL for years, as a Steeler fan I am sure you can agree with that and he was a championship winner. Billick was probably as opposite Belchick as you could get.

2) The way you perceive Harbaugh is going to be taken with a grain of salt because you don't watch him all that often. Compared to Billick, he's much more of the Belichick, I am not saying anything mode.

3) Get over the gatorade bath. It's a team commarderie thing that OUR team does. Just because the Steelers don't do it does not make it wrong. The Ravens give gatorade bath's a few times per season and they don't all go to Harbaugh. For example, in 2008 the Ravens gave Willie Anderson a gatorade bath after beating Cinci, Bengal fans were pissed. They gave Cameron one the same year after beating Miami, Dolphin fans were pissed. I don't know if they did it for Q, vs. Arizona but he did get a game ball. When guys on the Ravens get revenge vs. their former team or get over a hump the team shows them love for it. Whether its a gatorade bath, a game ball, or naming them team captain for the day (he did that for McGahee when we played Buffalo). It's something that they just do. Just like Tomlin standing at the locker room door shaking every players hand after a win.

Good post. I agree with you. I'm starting to get tired of gatorade show-gate. lol JeromeBettis63, with his Steelers entitlment, automically believes the gatorade bath was a way to show up the Steelers.

He mentions Belichick as an example of winning coaches taking wins in stride, but there is a quote from Belichick saying how he likes gatorade baths because it means you did something good. I guess by his logic, Belichick isn't a winner after all.

[houstonravensfan]

Great post, Tony.

[mrfactoid]

Harbs and Cam are tag teamming in hitting the panic button like when playing that game at the carnival where you hit the animals that pop up with a sledge hammer.

[Ngata Nother Suggs]

I'm watching the 49ers-Giants replay, and they're going to show up big time for Jim to beat John. None of that three days, travel from the west coast short rest crap because win or lose that Bengals front seven is a nasty bunch that is not going to play twinkle toes with the Ravens.

That 49ers game will be another measuring stick for Harabaugh to see how much they want to do the same for him. If his player relationships look like they're openly deteriorating then I think there is a major problem. For now they have to let Cam go at the end of the season, and ask Harbaugh what the hell he wants to do.

For now he looks quite the dickhead for acting like a five year old to the same people he couldn't get enough of last week.

[ballhawk]

The ravens are still in this thing. Harbaugh has a chance to show his worth. They need to finish this season strong and stay on top of the steelers and Bengals. If they let the division slip away after sweeping the steelers, harbaugh will def be on the hotseat next year. Cameron has already sealed his fate.

[NOLARavenFAN]

Who threw the Gatorade?

[JeromeBettis63]

Good post. I agree with you. I'm starting to get tired of gatorade show-gate. lol JeromeBettis63, with his Steelers entitlment, automically believes the gatorade bath was a way to show up the Steelers.

He mentions Belichick as an example of winning coaches taking wins in stride, but there is a quote from Belichick saying how he likes gatorade baths because it means you did something good. I guess by his logic, Belichick isn't a winner after all.

You keep putting words in my mouth. I never once said it was to show the Steelers up. You don't even get the point of my post. Corey understands my point and disagrees with it...fine. You simply take off with your normal bashing.

I will speak slow and use small words: my view is please keep doing regular season gatorade baths (it was on tv, thats how I know they did it, sherlock).... i think it is shows the wrong focus. So far the evidence supports me. Two let down losses and losing playoff record.

[SC_Raven_Fan]

Fine, I don't have proof that he does nothing for offense or defense. The only thing I can based this on is he spend 10 years as a special team coach and 1 year as a defense back coach. From what I've been read, he is not involve with defense or offense game planning.

Don't read much do ya. Harb's increased involvement in the offense was a major statement back in January.

http://blogs.baltimoreravens.com/201...-with-offense/