The John Harbaugh Debate Thread (Merged Threads)

**SC_Raven_Fan** · 11-16-2011, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by JeromeBettis63

You keep putting words in my mouth. I never once said it was to show the Steelers up. You don't even get the point of my post. Corey understands my point and disagrees with it...fine. You simply take off with your normal bashing.

I will speak slow and use small words: my view is please keep doing regular season gatorade baths (it was on tv, thats how I know they did it, sherlock).... i think it is shows the wrong focus. So far the evidence supports me. Two let down losses and losing playoff record.

Flacco is 4-3 in the playoffs. Which losing record do you mean?

**MattSG** · 11-16-2011, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by JeromeBettis63

You keep putting words in my mouth. I never once said it was to show the Steelers up. You don't even get the point of my post. Corey understands my point and disagrees with it...fine. You simply take off with your normal bashing.

I will speak slow and use small words: my view is please keep doing regular season gatorade baths (it was on tv, thats how I know they did it, sherlock).... i think it is shows the wrong focus. So far the evidence supports me. Two let down losses and losing playoff record.

I understand what your point is. You took it as a diss, that's why you have a problem with it and post about the event. You don't know why they did the gatorade shower. So you are being ignorant.

I didn't ask you to show proof that the Ravens gave Harbaugh a gatorade shower after the game, I asked you if you can prove that all the coaches you listed that apply, haven't gotten a non Superbowl gatorade shower.

You will find that Mike Tomlin recieved one in 2009 after winning just the AFC championship. So, by your logic, that shows your team didn't have the right mindset.

As I stated before, Parcells was doused with gatorade after every win in their Superbowl year in 1986. Did the team during the regular season not have the right mindset?

Belichick is quoted as saying he likes the gatorade showers. Belichick must not have the right mindset.

I'm just showing how your logic is flawed and that you are a hypocrite. You say in giving their coach a gatorade shower, it shows the mindset of the team; well your own team did the same thing in 2009.

As far as your evidence, it doesn't support your claim. First off, how do you know our team haven't won the SB under Harbaugh because of not having the right mindset. As people have shown, getting a gatorade shower in a game other than the Superbowl doesn't prove your team doesn't have the right mindset to win a championship.

Are you trying to imply that getting a regular season gatorade shower is the cause of the team not winning the SB? That would be an example of the post hoc fallacy. That doesn't make sense. lol Because our coach recieved a gatorade shower during the season, and we went on to not win the SB that year, it's has to be because of the regular gatorade shower?

**RavenA.SHARP** · 11-16-2011, 02:58 PM

I never thought he was a good choice for Billick's replacement.The fact that the Raven's have been to the playoff's the last 3 yrs. is great,but im sure that our talent and veteran leadership at key positions has alot to do with that as well.I don't think for ONE second that Harb's "football IQ" is more advanced than Billick's,as I've seen him get outcoached several time's in the past few yrs.The HC is responsable at the end of the day for the preparation and overall"product" on the field,and losing to 3 team's under 500 this year is just plain sad...Im not saying to run out and re-hire Billick..but i think we may be wasting time with the Harbaugh we got....

**JeromeBettis63** · 11-16-2011, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by SC_Raven_Fan

Flacco is 4-3 in the playoffs. Which losing record do you mean?

The one where he has no playoff wins against the Steelers and never makes the Super Bowl.

**festivus** · 11-16-2011, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Corey

3) Get over the gatorade bath.

The reason why Steelers fans on the internet like to talk about the Gatorade bath is because they *know* why it was done.

Beating the Steelers in Pittsburgh with a healthy Roethlisberger was a huge moment for this team and its fanbase. Sure, it wasn't a big deal in PIT and wouldn't have been if the shoe had been on the other foot, because they had consistently bounced the Ravens out of the playoffs for several years now.

So. It was a big monkey off our backs. And they know it. Mocking the Gatorade bath is exactly the same as saying "Big deal." Pretending a big rivalry game - bigger for us than for them, too - is not a big deal, after losing. Very playground-ish.

Which is fair enough, I guess, on their boards. A typical unsophisticated playground-style sulking after a loss. A Steelers fan on a Ravens board understands, though.

And if a Steelers fan thinks the Gatorade bath means the Ravens won't win the Super Bowl this year, well, last time I picked my nose I got a huge booger out of it, which I think means the Steelers won't win the Super Bowl this year. And we're both probably right.

**Dirt1** · 11-16-2011, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by RavenA.SHARP

I never thought he was a good choice for Billick's replacement.The fact that the Raven's have been to the playoff's the last 3 yrs. is great,but im sure that our talent and veteran leadership at key positions has alot to do with that as well.I don't think for ONE second that Harb's "football IQ" is more advanced than Billick's,as I've seen him get outcoached several time's in the past few yrs.The HC is responsable at the end of the day for the preparation and overall"product" on the field,and losing to 3 team's under 500 this year is just plain sad...Im not saying to run out and re-hire Billick..but i think we may be wasting time with the Harbaugh we got....

I tend to agree. I have also never been much of a Harbaugh fan. I think Billick was a better HC than Harbaugh. The thing Harbaugh has that Billick never had is a credible NFL QB. Jim Caldwell looked like a decent HC before this season too.

**MattSG** · 11-16-2011, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by RavenA.SHARP

I never thought he was a good choice for Billick's replacement.The fact that the Raven's have been to the playoff's the last 3 yrs. is great,but im sure that our talent and veteran leadership at key positions has alot to do with that as well.I don't think for ONE second that Harb's "football IQ" is more advanced than Billick's,as I've seen him get outcoached several time's in the past few yrs.The HC is responsable at the end of the day for the preparation and overall"product" on the field,and losing to 3 team's under 500 this year is just plain sad...Im not saying to run out and re-hire Billick..but i think we may be wasting time with the Harbaugh we got....

I'm overall a fan of Harbaugh, so far. Did Billick ever coach the Ravens to 3 straight playoff appearances? I don't remember off the top of my head how many times his teams went to the playoffs two years in a row. I remember making it one year, and then having a bad season after. We also never had offenses under Billick. He had a part in drafting Boller, from what I read he wanted Boller.

Billick had talent to help him as well. He had a prime Ray Lewis, Ogden, and Heap. He had still highly productive players in S. Sharpe and R. Woodson as well.

I'd give the nod to Harbaugh when it comes to clock management. Billick was bad at managing the clock. In my opinion Billick was better at handling the media. Harbaugh is thin- skinned.

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty confident in Harbaugh's football IQ. A good example of his football IQ is that going into last week he lead the league in challenging plays.

My biggest problem with Harbaugh is that he doesn't assert himself. If Cam for example is doing a bad job, he doesn't step in and correct what's going on. Atleast that is how it seems from an outside observer.

I like both Harbaugh and Billick, but I would give the nod to Harbaugh. I think he is more consistent.

**JeromeBettis63** · 11-16-2011, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by festivus

The reason why Steelers fans on the internet like to talk about the Gatorade bath is because they *know* why it was done.

Beating the Steelers in Pittsburgh with a healthy Roethlisberger was a huge moment for this team and its fanbase. Sure, it wasn't a big deal in PIT and wouldn't have been if the shoe had been on the other foot, because they had consistently bounced the Ravens out of the playoffs for several years now.

So. It was a big monkey off our backs. And they know it. Mocking the Gatorade bath is exactly the same as saying "Big deal." Pretending a big rivalry game - bigger for us than for them, too - is not a big deal, after losing. Very playground-ish.

Which is fair enough, I guess, on their boards. A typical unsophisticated playground-style sulking after a loss. A Steelers fan on a Ravens board understands, though.

And if a Steelers fan thinks the Gatorade bath means the Ravens won't win the Super Bowl this year, well, last time I picked my nose I got a huge booger out of it, which I think means the Steelers won't win the Super Bowl this year. And we're both probably right.

Keep telling yourself that. Champions don't celebrate too soon...period.

**JeromeBettis63** · 11-16-2011, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by MattSG

I understand what your point is. You took it as a diss, that's why you have a problem with it and post about the event. You don't know why they did the gatorade shower. So you are being ignorant.

I didn't ask you to show proof that the Ravens gave Harbaugh a gatorade shower after the game, I asked you if you can prove that all the coaches you listed that apply, haven't gotten a non Superbowl gatorade shower.

You will find that Mike Tomlin recieved one in 2009 after winning just the AFC championship. So, by your logic, that shows your team didn't have the right mindset.

As I stated before, Parcells was doused with gatorade after every win in their Superbowl year in 1986. Did the team during the regular season not have the right mindset?

Belichick is quoted as saying he likes the gatorade showers. Belichick must not have the right mindset.

I'm just showing how your logic is flawed and that you are a hypocrite. You say in giving their coach a gatorade shower, it shows the mindset of the team; well your own team did the same thing in 2009.

As far as your evidence, it doesn't support your claim. First off, how do you know our team haven't won the SB under Harbaugh because of not having the right mindset. As people have shown, getting a gatorade shower in a game other than the Superbowl doesn't prove your team doesn't have the right mindset to win a championship.

Are you trying to imply that getting a regular season gatorade shower is the cause of the team not winning the SB? That would be an example of the post hoc fallacy. That doesn't make sense. lol Because our coach recieved a gatorade shower during the season, and we went on to not win the SB that year, it's has to be because of the regular gatorade shower?

Same thing I have said from the beginning...it is representative of the mindset that has failed to lead to a championship...complain about refs, put all your energy into beating your big brother, wear rabbit ears where it comes to the media and fans, act like you have won the SB after a big win...it goes on and on.

**StingerNLG** · 11-16-2011, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by JeromeBettis63

Same thing I have said from the beginning...it is representative of the mindset that has failed to lead to a championship...complain about refs, put all your energy into beating your big brother, wear rabbit ears where it comes to the media and fans, act like you have won the SB after a big win...it goes on and on.

None of which have anything to do with it. You are really going to have to get over this Gatorade thing.

**JeromeBettis63** · 11-16-2011, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by StingerNLG

None of which have anything to do with it. You are really going to have to get over this Gatorade thing.

Clunk! That was me dropping the subject (but not my opinion).

**festivus** · 11-17-2011, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by JeromeBettis63

Keep telling yourself that. Champions don't celebrate too soon...period.

Heh.

Keep telling yourself your role as a fan of the Pittsburgh Steelers gives you special insight into what it means to have won, yourself, a Super Bowl, or to know what it takes.

*clunk*

**festivus** · 11-17-2011, 12:48 PM

Double-posting because this is so completely unrelated to exchanging sports-drink-related barbs with a Steelers fan:

A day or two ago Drew Forrester interviewed Brian Billick, as he often does. Drew asked Billick about the '06 decision to relieve Fassel part way through the season. It was my sense Drew *thought* he was tossing the coach a softball that would help the Cameron critics understand why Cameron can't be ejected mid-season.

But Billick's answer was not, I didn't think, what Drew was expecting. Billick made two observations that were responsive to those who say it can't be done now.

1. The reason to make the switch: He said it was painful but the team was not getting the most out of its talent on the offensive side of the ball (Ray Rice, Vonta Leach, Anquan Boldin, anybody?).

2. The obstacle that nobody else on the staff has OC experience: Billick observed that when Fassel left, Billick himself had OC experience and could take over. But in his own career, he himself had been made OC midseason in Minnesota, taking over for someone else dumped overboard midstream (well, after week 2, but still after the season started). He said an assistant could be found who could take over.

All that said, Billick did not sound like he was suggesting it would or could or should happen with Cameron. But he did show the blueprint of why and how it could happen, if it does.

**HoustonRaven** · 11-17-2011, 12:55 PM

And in there lay a couple of problems.

Who replaces Cam?

And once you start to jettison your OC, the next person the team looks at is the head coach if things do not turn around.

**Dirt1** · 11-17-2011, 01:02 PM

The ravens are not going to fire Harbaugh. However, if they did, I think Billick could do a better job of coaching this Ravens team.

**festivus** · 11-17-2011, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by HoustonRaven

And in there lay a couple of problems.

Who replaces Cam?

And once you start to jettison your OC, the next person the team looks at is the head coach if things do not turn around.

One of the assistants, is what Billick said. After all, it's what he was when he took over for an OC in Minnesota. I don't know which, I wouldn't presume to know which, if any, is capable.

And yes, the HC is always on the hot seat if the team does not improve after the OC departs. It's risky, but in '06 it worked for Billick.

I'm not advocating it, yet.

But I look at our personnel on offense, and I look at the way we play on Sundays, and I think we are underachieving compared to our potential. Regularly. It's one thing if we suck and we don't have the horses. But we *do* have the horses, and we are sucking anyway, which is *precisely* the reason Billick gave for firing Fassel in the middle of the season.

We know, not just from this year but from years gone by, Joe can complete passes, Ray Rice can run the ball, Vonta Leach can protect the running back, and Anquan Boldin can catch the ball. We know from this year that we have two TEs who can catch the ball and a WR who can get behind opposing defenses. But we are not putting points up on the board.

There are parallels, is all I am saying. Enough for me to say, if it happens, I will not be surprised. And if it does not happen, and things don't improve, I will say in the offseason it *should* happen. And I don't normally talk that way.

**JeromeBettis63** · 11-17-2011, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by festivus

Heh.

Keep telling yourself your role as a fan of the Pittsburgh Steelers gives you special insight into what it means to have won, yourself, a Super Bowl, or to know what it takes.

*clunk*

It takes having the best fans...thats the key!

**HoustonRaven** · 11-17-2011, 01:13 PM

I was speaking in terms of hypothetical and not necessarily advocating Cam's ouster.

Lets suppose the team pulled the trigger and Cam gets bounced. I don't see anyone on the team that can step right in as in 2006 when Billick took over.

Like it or not, Cam is here to stay till the end of the season.

**ravensinva** · 11-17-2011, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Dirt1

The ravens are not going to fire Harbaugh. However, if they did, I think Billick could do a better job of coaching this Ravens team.

Bisciotti will not admit he made a mistake hiring Harbaugh. And He just gave Harbaugh a new 4 years contract for about 16 million.

**MattSG** · 11-17-2011, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by JeromeBettis63

Same thing I have said from the beginning...it is representative of the mindset that has failed to lead to a championship...complain about refs, put all your energy into beating your big brother, wear rabbit ears where it comes to the media and fans, act like you have won the SB after a big win...it goes on and on.

You keep saying the same thing after people show that your thinking is wrong.

First off, you don't know why Harbaugh was given a gatorade shower. Plus, it was his players that chose to do it. Do you think it was his premeditated idea? How do you know it is a mindset that caused the Ravens under Harbaugh to fall short of a SB?

I gave you an example of the Steelers giving Tomlin a gatorade shower after a non SB win. Bill Belichick says the practice is a good thing. He knows about winning titles.

How do you know for sure that we lost the following games after beating Pittsburgh because we put all of our energy into the games against the Steelers? As a Ravens fan, I thought about that, but there were other factors in why we lost to the Steelers. Two fumbles and a big penalty by your kick returner played a big part in us losing. Our offensive play calling seems to possibly be a big reason why we lost to Seattle. I would guess those were bigger factors in losing the game than being exhausted from beating the Steelers.

Complaining about refs is done by every fanbase.

You are just a sore loser, and rather than handle the loss with class, you have to add a lame criticism about post-game celebration etiquette.