Draft Prospects

**runrayrun27** · 04-12-2012, 10:32 AM

I have been a big fan of Brooks since last year, he is one big man and he's the kind of player that is going to get better from the coaching, but brings the physical assets of a guard, especially on this time. If we nabbed him in the second and took someone like Hill in the first I'd be estatic, but if they don't think they could get Brooks in the 2nd than I'd be grabbing Konz

**Shas** · 04-12-2012, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

The Ravens are scheduled to meet with Miami (OH) guard Brandon Brooks (6'5 343 lbs).

Just to use this as an example of the point I was making, meeting him doesn't necessarily signal any interest. They tend to use visits as a way of evaluating guys who have dangling questions because they went to a small school and there isn't a lot of good tape on them, or because they have a checkered past, or because they didn't get a chance to interview him him. They are just doing their homework. Because he wasn't invited to the combine, they didn't get to interview him. Going to Miami also makes it harder to evaluate where he fits on their board. But it doesn't signal they like him more or less than other third-round offensive linemen types.

**leachisabeast** · 04-12-2012, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Shas

I have no idea who they like. I never do. I don't put much stock in who they meet or talk about, either, as a way to predict what they will do.

All I'm saying is that I think Zeitler and Smith are better values than Konz and Hill. If I did try to read the tea leaves from what I've heard from them, I actually kind of get the impression that they are concerned about Konz's durability.

While I don't have any idea if they really see it this way, I personally agreee with Mayock when it comes to value.

I also thought it was interesting to note that Mayock doesn't even list WR as a need, while he does list RB as a need. He may be right. Not saying they won't take a WR later -- another Doss or Reed type player to compete, but I don't see them using a first rounder or even second on a player who they would plug in right away as a third receiver. I don't see much WR talent in this draft that is a lot more talented than what tthey probably see in the players they have. The one type of player they are probably interested in is a player who is primarily a kick returner, and who could compete for the third receiver role. Finding another Jermaine Lewis in the fifth round is the kind of WR scenario I am imagining.

What do you actually see in Harrison Smith that suggests he will be a better player than Konz or Hill, other than Mayock hyping him up? I watched his film, and IMO it isn't anything special, he is in no way a first round or a future replacement for Ed Reed, and is miles apart from Mark Barron. In any other draft, he'd be more of a third round prospect IMO. I know that Hill has basically no tape, he does appear to make some big plays, but obviously he isn't ever going to stick out on film in that style of offense.

**GOTA** · 04-12-2012, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

It really is. Russell had some tape on the books from 2004 and 2005, but his 2006 tape was just outrageous, with his athleticism and ability to throw 80 yard bombs off his back foot while evading blitzers in the backfield. He looked like a higher-upside John Elway on his tape alone. NOBODY thought Russell was anything but a top 10 pick. Some thought the bust potential was high, but a credible argument could be made that Russell was seen as the best QB prospect of all time.

I'm not saying I agree with that, but nobody realized that Russell couldn't make reads and didn't have the mental acumen or work habits of an NFL QB. A lot of people learned not to overlook the non-tape stuff because of Russell's failure, but in years before that everyone just said that a QB prospect would learn the NFL game when they got there. Some still say that--Cam Newton went #1 overall despite having no evidence on tape of his ability to make reads and be a rhythm passer.

Cam Newton worked out. Ben Roethlisberger, who was another player Russell was compared to, has also worked out. Roethlisberger STILL doesn't really make reads, he continues to play the college game running around until somebody comes open. If Russell WANTED to be an NFL QB, he could have. Nobody knew from the tape that he didn't really want to.

It's funny you make the comparison of Russell with Elway because I did the exact same thing before the draft. I'm a LSU fan so I saw a lot of JaMarcus Russell. Russell didn't have a good running game behind him or even a typical LSU offensive line. He just played with tremendous leadership and playmaking ability. It was very similar to what John Elway had done throughout his career.

I did think the Raiders were not a good spot for Russell since he needed a coach who was the absolute authority on the team. The Raiders haven't had that since Tom Flores. Hard to imagine him completely imploding though after the way he looked in college.

Ironically the year after Russell left LSU won the National Championship with the complete opposite type of QB and offense. Russell's replacement was kind of a goof ball who seemed to go with the flow. He did nothing great but he kept on winning games. If someone told me that Russell would be out of the league in 2012 and his successor, Matt Flynn, would be a hot free agent QB back in 2007, I would have laughed in their face. Funny how this league works.

**leachisabeast** · 04-12-2012, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Shas

Just to use this as an example of the point I was making, meeting him doesn't necessarily signal any interest. They tend to use visits as a way of evaluating guys who have dangling questions because they went to a small school and there isn't a lot of good tape on them, or because they have a checkered past, or because they didn't get a chance to interview him him. They are just doing their homework. Because he wasn't invited to the combine, they didn't get to interview him. Going to Miami also makes it harder to evaluate where he fits on their board. But it doesn't signal they like him more or less than other third-round offensive linemen types.

Well leading up to the draft last year, they where constantly meeting up with Jimmy Smith and Torrey Smith, and they ended up drafting both. I think it has a lot to do with who they draft.

**wickedsolo** · 04-12-2012, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Ben Jones and Mike Brewster will never be more than NFL back ups. Philip Blake would be a nice pick, but yeah sorry to burst your bubble but the film on both guys is very average. Ben Jones can't pass block against better defenses to save his life, and Brewster is just too small and not physical enough.

The only centers I can see being NFL starters from this draft is Peter Konz (potential pro bowl player), Philip Blake, and David Molk.

Brewster isn't really small. He's 6'4" 315lbs and he's a solid guy. He's not flabby or fat at all. In fact, that's one of the things that many really admired about him was his conditioning and his ability to carry 315lbs without looking loose and out of shape.

That said, he plays really high which is why he is inconsistent as a run blocker and as a pass blocker. Granted, this is stuff that you can coach, so I think Brewster could be an option, but not before the 3rd or even 4th rounds. I think Blake is a better center prospect and I think Zeitler (even though he's a guard) is a better center prospect than Brewster.

David Molk is all talk. He's barely 6'1" and he had to bulk up to reach 299lbs, but his playing weight was around 285lbs. Now, that worked for Philly with Kelce being under 290lbs at center, but Molk isn't someone I see being a starting caliber center in the NFL for a long time. I'd take a flier on him in the 6th round or something or as a UDFA, which he could very well not get drafted, but other than that...no thanks. Most of his playing career was in that goofy Rich-Rod option offense and he hardly ever had to pass block.

**wickedsolo** · 04-12-2012, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by GOTA

It's funny you make the comparison of Russell with Elway because I did the exact same thing before the draft. I'm a LSU fan so I saw a lot of JaMarcus Russell. Russell didn't have a good running game behind him or even a typical LSU offensive line. He just played with tremendous leadership and playmaking ability. It was very similar to what John Elway had done throughout his career.

I did think the Raiders were not a good spot for Russell since he needed a coach who was the absolute authority on the team. The Raiders haven't had that since Tom Flores. Hard to imagine him completely imploding though after the way he looked in college.

Ironically the year after Russell left LSU won the National Championship with the complete opposite type of QB and offense. Russell's replacement was kind of a goof ball who seemed to go with the flow. He did nothing great but he kept on winning games. If someone told me that Russell would be out of the league in 2012 and his successor, Matt Flynn, would be a hot free agent QB back in 2007, I would have laughed in their face. Funny how this league works.

I've kind of always hoped the kid would get his act together and work his way back onto some team. It's not like he can't throw the ball. He just needs to lay off the donuts.

**alien bird** · 04-12-2012, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by GOTA

Obviously if either of those guys fell they would be the pick but the further we get into this the less likely that sounds. I see a lot of mocks now have Glenn to the Bills at #10. Martin is usually in the top half of the draft. I hope one of them falls too but unless something changes I really doubt it will happen.

I am pretty sure you are going to be proven right, but it would be nice for the Ravens if the choice was that clear cut.

**wickedsolo** · 04-12-2012, 10:47 AM

Take what Mike Mayock has to say about Harrison Smith with a grain of salt. Mayock is admittedly a HUGE Notre Dame fan and he admitted that he tended to favor Notre Dame prospects over others.

Harrison Smith is a good safety prospect, but he's not SO tremendously better than guys like Markelle Martin and Aaron Henry that he should be taken upwards of 2-3 rounds ahead of those guys.

**Shas** · 04-12-2012, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

What do you actually see in Harrison Smith that suggests he will be a better player than Konz or Hill, other than Mayock hyping him up? I watched his film, and IMO it isn't anything special, he is in no way a first round or a future replacement for Ed Reed, and is miles apart from Mark Barron. In any other draft, he'd be more of a third round prospect IMO. I know that Hill has basically no tape, he does appear to make some big plays, but obviously he isn't ever going to stick out on film in that style of offense.

I actually LOVE Smith as a player. (And I am the anti-Notre Dame fan. I also think Floyd is the best receiver in this draft).

Smith is a rich-man's Haruki Nakamura or Jim Leonard. He is tremendous at coming up and playing the run like a linebacker. Excellent and coming up and stoning the blocker and sliding to make the tackle. A great open field tackler. And a tremendous nose for the ball in the air when dropping into coverage. I think he could be Polamalu with better coverage skills. This guy is totally legit.

The need at S is not as great as other positions, and ideally they Ravens fill it with more guys like Nakamura and Zbikowski and Demps and Landry...later round guys who play special teams and contribute eventually in the defensive rotation. But this may be a case where you are drafting Reed's successor, as they did in the past when drafting late and getting Heap for Sharpe and Reed for Woodson. Not their top needs, but the best players at a position where they had a future need.

**leachisabeast** · 04-12-2012, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Brewster isn't really small. He's 6'4" 315lbs and he's a solid guy. He's not flabby or fat at all. In fact, that's one of the things that many really admired about him was his conditioning and his ability to carry 315lbs without looking loose and out of shape.

That said, he plays really high which is why he is inconsistent as a run blocker and as a pass blocker. Granted, this is stuff that you can coach, so I think Brewster could be an option, but not before the 3rd or even 4th rounds. I think Blake is a better center prospect and I think Zeitler (even though he's a guard) is a better center prospect than Brewster.

David Molk is all talk. He's barely 6'1" and he had to bulk up to reach 299lbs, but his playing weight was around 285lbs. Now, that worked for Philly with Kelce being under 290lbs at center, but Molk isn't someone I see being a starting caliber center in the NFL for a long time. I'd take a flier on him in the 6th round or something or as a UDFA, which he could very well not get drafted, but other than that...no thanks. Most of his playing career was in that goofy Rich-Rod option offense and he hardly ever had to pass block.

His size is an issue, but he works hard in the gym and is now over 300 lbs. Plenty of centers are 6'1 like Jeff Saturday etc... I just think he could be a good fit for a ZBS team, not saying he is a good fit for the Ravens, but a team like Philly may be a good fit for him. I think he would take a season to develop into a starting NFL center.

I never knew Brewster was 6'4, but I just don't see the physicality with him that I see in Blake and Konz, they both blow up huge holes for their RB's, Brewster just doesn't do any of that. Kevin Zeitler is an interesting option at center, he would have to make a claim of being one of the strongest centers in the NFL, the guy looks stacked.

**BigPlayReceiver** · 04-12-2012, 10:58 AM

Hill's body-of-work is just not there...certainly not to the extent to justify a first round pick. And I completely understand the GT offense and head coach's mindset.

If selecting from a clump receivers with differences of 1-2", 12-15 lbs, and 0.2 secs in the 40 among them and all other things being equal...I will strongly favor the fella with the more complete/comprehensive body-of-work everytime.

Hill: 6'4" 215 4.36 (49 recs, 9 TDs)
MJones: 6'2" 200 4.46 (156 recs, 13 TDs)
Toon: 6'2" 215 4.54 (171 recs, 18 TDs)
Randle: 6'3" 210 4.55 (97 recs, 13 TDs)
Jeffrey: 6'2 216 4.56 (183 recs, 23 TDs)

**wickedsolo** · 04-12-2012, 11:00 AM

Don't overlook Sanu either.

**Carey** · 04-12-2012, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver

Hill's body-of-work is just not there...certainly not to the extent to justify a first round pick. And I completely understand the GT offense and head coach's mindset.

If selecting from a clump receivers with differences of 1-2", 12-15 lbs, and 0.2 secs in the 40 among them and all other things being equal...I will strongly favor the fella with the more complete/comprehensive body-of-work everytime.

Hill: 6'4" 215 4.36 (49 recs, 9 TDs)
MJones: 6'2" 200 4.46 (156 recs, 13 TDs)
Toon: 6'2" 215 4.54 (171 recs, 18 TDs)
Randle: 6'3" 210 4.55 (97 recs, 13 TDs)
Jeffrey: 6'2 216 4.56 (183 recs, 23 TDs)

The body of work is skill set and what that projects short term and long term. The tape is what it is, you can look at it till your blue in the face and wont see what you want with him. He cant be docked for production because the opportunity wasnt there for him to put the numbers others did. Im not sure what the extent of the visit Hill had with the Ravens was but im sure if they havent already at some point prior to the draft they will put him thru the route tree and see what type of base he has to work with. The coaches would have to make a determination from there whether he has enough short term and long term to warrant a first round pick.

Besides the obvious HWS, i've heard nothing but glowing things about his work ethic. I also like the fact that he took it upon himself to hook up with Terrance Mathis after the season to work on his route running. I also looked more fluid in and out of his breaks then i expected when he was at the combine and the clips i saw from the pro day. I also like the fact that he's a hands catcher, and a natural playmaker.

**Carey** · 04-12-2012, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Don't overlook Sanu either.

I like Sanu alot, love him as a player, i think he'll go early in the 2nd and be one of the best values and picks in this entire draft. He just not a vertical receiver at all and im of the opinion that we need another vertical WR in this draft, mainly because of the offense we run. Tandon Doss is a guy i think brings similar traits to the table besides Sanu's yac ability and a vertical guy would mesh alot better with what we already have.

**BigPlayReceiver** · 04-12-2012, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Don't overlook Sanu either.

I don't feel much like debating the "Hill vs. whoever" issue anymore lol. Just filling out the "big cat" list some more and I've made corrections too.

Hill: 6'4", 215, 4.36 Combine, N/A Pro Day (49/1248/9 in 3 seasons)

MJones: 6'2", 200, 4.46 Combine, N/A Pro Day (156/2270/13 in 4 seasons)

Toon: 6'2", 215, 4.54 Combine, 4.43 Pro Day (171/2247/18 in 4 seasons)

Randle: 6'3", 210, 4.55 Combine, 4.33 Pro Day (97/1634/13 in 3 seasons)

Quick: 6'4", 220, 4.55 Combine, 4.53 Pro Day (202/3418/31 in 4 seasons)

Jeffrey: 6'2, 216, N/A Combine, 4.38 Pro Day (183/3042/23 in 3 seasons)

Sanu: 6'2", 216, 4.67 Combine, 4.41 Pro Day (210/2263/12 in 3 seasons)

Overall, I'll be convinced that Hill has first-round value when our FO, or some other "non-reaching" FO takes him on the night of April 26th.

**alien bird** · 04-12-2012, 01:40 PM

I am thinking more and more that there are a lot of guys worth grabbing in the 2nd - 4th rounds, but unless some stud drops into the Ravens' lap, there isn't value there in the first round at #29.

I would love to see them end up with guys like Kendricks, Sanu, Lewis, Zeitler, Osemele, Brooks, Martin (Markelle), Massaquoi, Toon, McNutt, Criner, Graham, Hardin. Unfortunately, they just don't have the draft picks in the right spots. I can definitely see a bunch of wheeling and dealing to move into the right position for a few of the guys they are targeting.

If they ended up with three of those type guys (I'm sure there are other similar players) I would be satisfied.

**bmorecareful** · 04-12-2012, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Carey

I like Sanu alot, love him as a player, i think he'll go early in the 2nd and be one of the best values and picks in this entire draft. He just not a vertical receiver at all and im of the opinion that we need another vertical WR in this draft, mainly because of the offense we run. Tandon Doss is a guy i think brings similar traits to the table besides Sanu's yac ability and a vertical guy would mesh alot better with what we already have.

I agree. Sanu is Boldin--their game is very, very close. Not just in measurables, watch the tape on Sanu and compare it to Boldin's college clips. These guys are running the even routes and dominating the seams and the middle of the field. They're just not as explosive and effective outside the numbers and in the deep part of the field.

I do think Sanu is slightly better in that area of his game but his bread and butter in the NFL is going to be the same as Boldin's--the slant, drag, curl, and post, all the in-breaking routes. Those pages are missing from our playbook; they're just not there.

If we draft Sanu, we'll force him to be what Boldin is, a guy playing to his weaknesses. Boldin has not been a success (for what we paid him) in this offense because he's not as good in the odd routes. He doesn't have that explosion out of his breaks, speed, and physical dominance to beat man coverage on the sidelines, and I don't know that Sanu does either. That won't be a problem with a real NFL offense who will let him use his physicality and strength, but we don't have a real NFL offense.

We need these types of WRs for this offense: 1) physical freaks who can outmuscle and dominate corners in man coverage like Vincent Jackson, 2) blazing speedsters who can run away from anybody down the sidelines like Torrey Smith, or 3) extremely savvy route-runners who know how to work the sideline routes like Derrick Mason could.

Those are the WRs who are successful in this offense. Hill could be 1 and 2, which is why I like him.

**alien bird** · 04-12-2012, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Shas

The need at S is not as great as other positions, and ideally they Ravens fill it with more guys like Nakamura and Zbikowski and Demps and Landry...later round guys who play special teams and contribute eventually in the defensive rotation.

My sleeper pick: Brandon Hardin

**Carey** · 04-12-2012, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

I agree. Sanu is Boldin--their game is very, very close. Not just in measurables, watch the tape on Sanu and compare it to Boldin's college clips. These guys are running the even routes and dominating the seams and the middle of the field. They're just not as explosive and effective outside the numbers and in the deep part of the field.

I do think Sanu is slightly better in that area of his game but his bread and butter in the NFL is going to be the same as Boldin's--the slant, drag, curl, and post, all the in-breaking routes. Those pages are missing from our playbook; they're just not there.

If we draft Sanu, we'll force him to be what Boldin is, a guy playing to his weaknesses. Boldin has not been a success (for what we paid him) in this offense because he's not as good in the odd routes. He doesn't have that explosion out of his breaks, speed, and physical dominance to beat man coverage on the sidelines, and I don't know that Sanu does either. That won't be a problem with a real NFL offense who will let him use his physicality and strength, but we don't have a real NFL offense.

We need these types of WRs for this offense: 1) physical freaks who can outmuscle and dominate corners in man coverage like Vincent Jackson, 2) blazing speedsters who can run away from anybody down the sidelines like Torrey Smith, or 3) extremely savvy route-runners who know how to work the sideline routes like Derrick Mason could.

Those are the WRs who are successful in this offense. Hill could be 1 and 2, which is why I like him.

Couldnt have said it any better, i dont want to force feed anymore players, we are already paying Boldin #1 WR money to be a bad fit in this offense but i think if you acquire another vertical WR you do at least 2 things....Keep defenses honest, slide Boldin inside on 3rd down and passing downs drastically improving his effectiveness. I've explained the reasons i like Hill but the same could be said for say a Marvin Jones in the 3rd round. I just feel like Hill is a bold move but offers a skill set that could drastically change the way teams defend the Ravens both short term and even more so long term.