If the Ravens can't get Vontaze Burfict...

[Iscull]

Very true. Forgot about those guys, but State has always been known for its LB's. Their D-Line prospects haven't turned out at all as of late and I think I would take that into consideration.

[BleedPurple92]

Yeah I agree with that, but having Ray on the field next to him in practice, in the game and etc. would just be huge in my opinion. If there's any team that Burfict can excell with it's the Ravens.

The thing i love about Burfict is his attitude, he plays like a Mad man out there. He has 0 off the field issues, that we know of atleast. He's a model citizen of the field. He puts all his emotions in the game. Those are ravens traits.

Without a doubt we are the ideal team for him. Ray Lewis is also his Idol btw. Remember when Lardarius entered the league and he was slobbing all over Ed Reed's balls because he was his idol? That's the same thing here. It will be up to him to soak up everything he can from Ray Lewis.

The word is he's a quite guy off the field, kind of shy. He doesn't say much, but when the helmet comes on, he's a different guy. If you can get him to use that between the whistle, that would be incredible. His potential is out of this world.

[kwothdaraven]

Id take burfict all day. Watching him play makes you go "wow!". He's an absolute gamechanger and brings a sense of intimidation. He's got great instincts and is fantastic in pursuit. He plays with more fire than even ray lewis. Ill take a penalty here and there for a guy of his talent. Besides, nfl coaches and lockeroom can make a difference with his kind of issues. He has no off the field issues and doesent have a character problem. His problem is coachable. Id trade up for him

[Ravenous1]

Far as Burfict is concerned, if your truly believe that with the right kind of "mentor" (Ray) he can be reigned in a little then its a no brainer and you take him. His talent is elite, his head is questionable. If the Ravens take a pass on him, then I will be willing to give the brain-trust the benefit of the doubt and assume the risk is to great (even if he turns out to be in credible)

The Ravens need to stick to the BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE philosophy which has served them well. That being said, likely there will be a guy who can fill a need available who is in that best player available argument.

[JAB1985]

If we do our "homework" and go talk to his coaches that he had a lot to do with getting fired, do you really think theyre going to be singing the kids praises? I think itll be more about his personal interview than the coaches, but thats only if he has a damn good reason for being so insubordinate, which really there is no excuse for.

I think that "mad man" mentality is great TV but not so great for a disciplined defense. with fines and penalties being thrown about for illegal hits, i just dont see the benefit out weighing the upside personally.

[GOTA]

If Burfict interviews great he;s going to go a lot higher than #29. If he doesn't there are some issues that's going to push him out of the first round and significant guaranteed money. Either way I see him as a real long shot to be a Raven.

[wickedsolo]

Wicked: do you really think Devon Still will be a good Pro? For some reason Penn State has produced some real bust defensive players as of late. (Maybin, Odrick, etc.)

It's hard to tell.

GOTA and I were talking about this the other day actually. The problem is most collegiate teams don't develop 3-4 personnel because only a handful of teams actually run the 3-4 (Alabama being one of them...Georgia another), so a lot of these big and quick DT's are devloping interior pass rushing skills and that's not the purpose of the 5-technique DE in the NFL. I think Devon Still could be a decent player in the right system.

Guys like Odrick, Glenn Dorsey,Phillip Merling, Marcus Spears, etc. were bigger DT's in a 4-3 that specialised in rushing the passer and getting into the backfield. All of these guys are in 3-4 schemes and just haven't done well with it at all. Sometimes it does take a few years for a guy to develop into a 3-4 guy and sometimes it's just not what they're good at doing.

Chris Canty is a good example of this. He's a long/lean DT (6'7" 317lbs) and his best attributes are quickness and burst, but he doesn't use his hands well and in Dallas' 3-4 he just didn't perform as well as he is now with the Giants in their 4-3.

Scouts and GM's need to be cautious with these guys.

Personally, I think Brandon Thompson is a better 3-4 guy than Devon Still. Thompson (Clemson) does a good job standing OL'men up at the LOS, shedding the block, and making a tackle. He's not a finesse guy. He'll do well in a 3-4. Alameda Ta'amu from Washington is another good 3-4 prospect, but as a NT. He and Dontari Poe (Memphis) will likely be the 1st two 3-4 NT's taken. Ta'amu is a lot more athletic than Poe is, but for a team like Houston or Pittsburgh, Poe is ideal. He's basically a Terrance Cody clone. Josh Chapman from Alabama is a great 3-4 prospect as he has been playing in the 3-4 for a few years now. Mike Martin (Michigan) and Tydreke Powell (UNC) also appear (so far) to be decent 3-4 prospects.

I bet if the Ravens, Giants, Lions, Bears, etc had a guy like Glenn Dorsey or Marcus Spears they would do really well as an interior pass ruisher.

The problem is most scouts and GM's seem to look at a kid's size and assume that they'll be able to function in a 3-4. That's not always the case.

[wickedsolo]

Here are my thoughts on Burfict:

They call him the "coach killer". Yea...ok. Dennis Erickson was fired for going 21-28 in 3 years, including 2 losses in bowl games, and 3 losses to their in-state rival, Arizona. The fact that Dennis Erickson "couldn't control" Vontze Burfict says all you need to know about him as a coach.

1. Burfict had 1 year of being a shit head on a losing program with a coach who knew his days were numbered. The year before, Burfict was touted as one of the top defensive players in college. What happened there? Something did and it's going to have to come out during his interviews.
2. The guy, physically, is one of the best MLB talents that the NFL has seen since Patrick Willis. If he can get his head on straight or get into a locker room (like the Ravens) that can show him the ropes and how to be a professional then he's going to be one of the best MLB's in the league with a quickness.
3. The problem is he plays with reckless abandon and as a result can rack up some 15-yard penalties and his aggressive nature make him a liability in pass coverage. Can he be coached on that? At what point does upside and talent outweigh these types of issues because what's the point of having a great physical talent if he cannot play within the confines of the league?
4. He needs humbled and he needs a mentor.
5. I don't know that his risk is worth a 1st round pick.

[GOTA]

It's hard to tell.

GOTA and I were talking about this the other day actually. The problem is most collegiate teams don't develop 3-4 personnel because only a handful of teams actually run the 3-4 (Alabama being one of them...Georgia another), so a lot of these big and quick DT's are devloping interior pass rushing skills and that's not the purpose of the 5-technique DE in the NFL. I think Devon Still could be a decent player in the right system.

Guys like Odrick, Glenn Dorsey,Phillip Merling, Marcus Spears, etc. were bigger DT's in a 4-3 that specialised in rushing the passer and getting into the backfield. All of these guys are in 3-4 schemes and just haven't done well with it at all. Sometimes it does take a few years for a guy to develop into a 3-4 guy and sometimes it's just not what they're good at doing.

Chris Canty is a good example of this. He's a long/lean DT (6'7" 317lbs) and his best attributes are quickness and burst, but he doesn't use his hands well and in Dallas' 3-4 he just didn't perform as well as he is now with the Giants in their 4-3.

Scouts and GM's need to be cautious with these guys.

Personally, I think Brandon Thompson is a better 3-4 guy than Devon Still. Thompson (Clemson) does a good job standing OL'men up at the LOS, shedding the block, and making a tackle. He's not a finesse guy. He'll do well in a 3-4. Alameda Ta'amu from Washington is another good 3-4 prospect, but as a NT. He and Dontari Poe (Memphis) will likely be the 1st two 3-4 NT's taken. Ta'amu is a lot more athletic than Poe is, but for a team like Houston or Pittsburgh, Poe is ideal. He's basically a Terrance Cody clone. Josh Chapman from Alabama is a great 3-4 prospect as he has been playing in the 3-4 for a few years now. Mike Martin (Michigan) and Tydreke Powell (UNC) also appear (so far) to be decent 3-4 prospects.

I bet if the Ravens, Giants, Lions, Bears, etc had a guy like Glenn Dorsey or Marcus Spears they would do really well as an interior pass ruisher.

The problem is most scouts and GM's seem to look at a kid's size and assume that they'll be able to function in a 3-4. That's not always the case.

I'll give you the opposite case too. Last season at the Senior Bowl Cameron Jordan looked incredible. He had moves that other pass rushers in college just don't have. He played in a 3-4 defense at Cal and looked like he would be the perfect NFL 3-4 DE.

Unfortunately Jordan gets drafted by the Saints and is now a 4-3 DE. Mickey Loomis, the Saints GM, is at the Senior Bowl and was interviewed and asked about Jordan yesterday. He said that Jordan is doing very well against the run and is farther along in that then they hoped. It took him most of the season to start to figure out how to pass rush as a 4-3 DE and guess what, that's what a 4-3 DE is supposed to do. He's not supposed to be a run stopper.

Another case of a team trying to take a talented kid and recreate him. Eventually Jordan might become a very good 4-3 DE but at 6'4 290 with great run stopping skills it's obvious that he should be playing in a 3-4.

[wickedsolo]

Bleed -

Considering the number of teams that need a MLB I think that if Hightower has a standout combine performance and does well during his interviews, which I don't see why he wouldn't, then he and Kuechly will be a top 20 selection.

This isn't a great class for DL'man, OL'man, corners, safeties, or QB's, so I think you'll see positions like RB and LB going a lot earlier than last year or the year before.

Teams picking before Baltimore that legit need a MLB -
Minny, Tampa, Washington, KC, Arizona, Dallas, Philly, NYJets, San Diego, Chicago, Tennessee, Cleveland (twice), Detroit, Pittsburgh, & Denver.

And that's assuming no one trades up.

[wickedsolo]

I'll give you the opposite case too. Last season at the Senior Bowl Cameron Jordan looked incredible. He had moves that other pass rushers in college just don't have. He played in a 3-4 defense at Cal and looked like he would be the perfect NFL 3-4 DE.

Unfortunately Jordan gets drafted by the Saints and is now a 4-3 DE. Mickey Loomis, the Saints GM, is at the Senior Bowl and was interviewed and asked about Jordan yesterday. He said that Jordan is doing very well against the run and is farther along in that then they hoped. It took him most of the season to start to figure out how to pass rush as a 4-3 DE and guess what, that's what a 4-3 DE is supposed to do. He's not supposed to be a run stopper.

Another case of a team trying to take a talented kid and recreate him. Eventually Jordan might become a very good 4-3 DE but at 6'4 290 with great run stopping skills it's obvious that he should be playing in a 3-4.

Agreed.

[JAB1985]

Bleed -

Considering the number of teams that need a MLB I think that if Hightower has a standout combine performance and does well during his interviews, which I don't see why he wouldn't, then he and Kuechly will be a top 20 selection.

This isn't a great class for DL'man, OL'man, corners, safeties, or QB's, so I think you'll see positions like RB and LB going a lot earlier than last year or the year before.

Teams picking before Baltimore that legit need a MLB -
Minny, Tampa, Washington, KC, Arizona, Dallas, Philly, NYJets, San Diego, Chicago, Tennessee, Cleveland (twice), Detroit, Pittsburgh, & Denver.

And that's assuming no one trades up.

Whats the history of MLB being drafted in the first round though? I tried looking up a position breakdown. assuming FB TE and Safety are probably the least, id assume a MLB is probably 4th on that list as far as first round picks used on the position. I dont think teams value ILB as much as other positions, unless you have a once in a lifetime talent (Lewis, Willis, etc) not saying these guys arent talented but are they in the upper echelon that teams wont see better value?

[The Excellector]

I just don't want this to be a case of passing up a guy, because he does not perform well at the combine, compared to others at his position. There are plenty of players, on offense and defense, that have had great careers after timing slow in the 40 yard dash.

Last year, J.J. Watt was not the most athletic of the 3-4DE prospects, but was the most fundamentally sound without question. You saw the results.

Terrell Suggs himself was considered too slow, by some draft analysts. All that Suggs could really do when he came out of Arizona State was rush the passer. Now, he is the most versatile OLB in the league.

I just don't see how you can pass up a fundamentally sound and physically dominating ILB like Hightower, who would be the most likely to turn his Ray Lewis studies into gold. We are seeing Ray play at a high level, to this day, compared to the vast majority of ILBs in the league, and he is much slower than he used to be.

Too many times, we talk ourselves out of what our eyes see. Ray showed you everything that would lead you to believe he was probably a high first round pick. However, he was too small for the position according to the analysts, so he slipped to the Ravens.

[wickedsolo]

I just don't want this to be a case of passing up a guy, because he does not perform well at the combine, compared to others at his position. There are plenty of players, on offense and defense, that have had great careers after timing slow in the 40 yard dash.

Last year, J.J. Watt was not the most athletic of the 3-4DE prospects, but was the most fundamentally sound without question. You saw the results.

Terrell Suggs himself was considered too slow, by some draft analysts. All that Suggs could really do when he came out of Arizona State was rush the passer. Now, he is the most versatile OLB in the league.

I just don't see how you can pass up a fundamentally sound and physically dominating ILB like Hightower, who would be the most likely to turn his Ray Lewis studies into gold. We are seeing Ray play at a high level, to this day, compared to the vast majority of ILBs in the league, and he is much slower than he used to be.

Too many times, we talk ourselves out of what our eyes see. Ray showed you everything that would lead you to believe he was probably a high first round pick. However, he was too small for the position according to the analysts, so he slipped to the Ravens.

JJ Watt is also not a finesse guy. He's an in-your-face DL'man who has incredible strength and uses it to bull rush and push OL'men back into the pocket. He uses his hands and he uses leverage really well. However, he's someone that honestly probably could thrive in any defensive system, but as a 3-4 DE he's done a great job and picked it up extremely well.

[The Excellector]

JJ Watt is also not a finesse guy. He's an in-your-face DL'man who has incredible strength and uses it to bull rush and push OL'men back into the pocket. He uses his hands and he uses leverage really well. However, he's someone that honestly probably could thrive in any defensive system, but as a 3-4 DE he's done a great job and picked it up extremely well.

Could the same not be said for Dont'a Hightower?

[wickedsolo]

Whats the history of MLB being drafted in the first round though? I tried looking up a position breakdown. assuming FB TE and Safety are probably the least, id assume a MLB is probably 4th on that list as far as first round picks used on the position. I dont think teams value ILB as much as other positions, unless you have a once in a lifetime talent (Lewis, Willis, etc) not saying these guys arent talented but are they in the upper echelon that teams wont see better value?

Going back to 1999 here are the MLB's drafted in round 1:

1999
Andy Katzenmoyer, Patriots, 28th overall (Bust)
Al Wilson, Denver Broncos, 31st overall (Solid player)

*Mike Peterson was taken in round 2, Dat Nguyen was taken in round 3, and Eric Barton was taken in round 5. You could argue that these three were better than both Katzenmoyer and Wilson and cost a fraction of what a 1st round pick would have been.

2000
LaVarr Arrington, Redskins, #2 overall (Solid, but never great)
Brian Urlacher, Bears, #9 overall (Potential HOF'er, muli Pro-Bowler and All Pro)
Rob Morris, Colts, 28th overall (Average player, not 1st round value)
Keith Bullock, Titans, 30th overall (Solid player for a long time, worth the value)

*Marcus Washington (2nd round), Jeff Ulbrich (3rd round), Nai'il Diggs (4th round), Dhani Jones (6th round), & Adalius Thomas (6th round) were all taken in the same draft and played MLB and OLB in some respects. Other than Brian Urlacher, all of these guys were just as effective as their 1st round counterparts, some more so.

2001
Dan Morgan, Panther, 11th overall (Very good when healthy)

*Morlon Greenwood (3rd round), Edgerton Hartwell (4th round), Antonio Pierce (undrafted),

2002
Napoleon Harris, Raiders, 23rd overall (Bust)
Robert Thomas, Rams, 31st overall (Bust)

*Ben Leber (3rd), Will Witherspoon (3rd), Akin Ayodele (3rd), Kevin Bentley (4th), David Thornton (4th), Larry Foote (4th), Andra Davis (5th), Scott Fujita (5th), DD Lewis (undrafted), Bart Scott (undrafted).

2003
Nick Barnett, Packers, 29th overall (Solid player, never great)

* EJ Henderson (2nd), Pisa Tinoisamoa (2nd), Kawika Mitchell (2nd), Bradie James (4th), Mario Haggan (7th), Tracy White (undrafted).

2004
Jonathan Vilma, Jets, 12th overall (Very good player)
DJ Williams, Broncos, 17th overall (Very good player)

*Karlos Dansby (2nd), Daryl Smith (2nd), Keyaron Fox (3rd), Brandon Chillar (4th).

2005
Thomas Davis, Panthers, 14th overall (Talented, never healthy, bust)
Derrick Johnson, Chiefs, 15th overall (Solid, but took 6 years to really reach potential)

* Barrett Ruud (2nd), Kevin Burnett (2nd), Lofa Tatupu (2nd), Kirk Morrison (3rd), & Chase Blackburn (undrafted).

2006
AJ Hawk, Packers, 5th overall (Solid, but not Top 5 worthy)

* DeMecco Ryans (2nd), D'Qwell Jackson (2nd), Rocky McIntosh (2nd), Thomas Howard (2nd), Stephen Tulloch (4th).

2007
Patrick Willis, Niners, 11th overall (Arguably the best MLB currently in the NFL, potential HOF'er when career is over)
Lawrence Timmons, Steelers, 15th overall (Solid player, not worth of 1st round status yet)
Jon Beason, Panthers, 25th overall (Excellent player, hard time staying healthy)

* Paul Posluszny (2nd), David Harris (2nd), Justin Durrant (2nd), Quincy Black (3rd), Stewart Bradley (3rd), Desmond Bishop (6th), Brandon Siler (7th).

2008
Jerrod Mayo, Pats, 10th overall (Solid player. Worth the top pick.)

*Curtis Lofton (2nd), Dan Connor (3rd), Jonathan Goff (5th), Joe Mays (6th), David Vobora (7th), Jameel McClain (undrafted), Gary Guyton (undrafted), Wesley Woodyard (undrafted).

2009
Brian Cushing, Texans, 15th overall (3 years later and he's one of the top MLB's in the NFL)

*James Laurinaitis (2nd), Rey Maualuga (2nd), Jasper Brinkley (5th), Zack Follett (7th), Jovan Belcher (undrafted), Dannell Ellerbe (undrafted).

2010
Rolando McClain, Raiders, 8th overall (Solid, off field concerns)

*Darryl Washington (2nd), Sean Lee (2nd), Brandon Spikes (2nd), Pat Angerer (2nd), Donald Butler (3rd), Navarro Bowman (3rd), Perry Riley (4th), Jamar Chaney (7th), Dan Fletcher (undrafted).

2011
No First Round MLB's Taken

*Bruce Carter (2nd), Akeem Ayers (2nd), Kelvin Sheppard (3rd), Mason Foster (3rd), Colin McCarthy (4th), Casey Matthews (4th), Quan Sturdivant (6th), Greg Jones (6th).

So, in 13 years you have arguably 5 MLB's taken in round 1 that have met or exceeded their value, 6 who were solid players and arguably met their value, but never exceeded it, and 7 MLB prospects who were flat out busts or severly underplayed in respect to their draft position.

Like RB, unless the guy is something very special like a Brian Cushing or a Jerrod Mayo, the value of MLB's just aren't there anymore. Just look at last year's draft. NO middle linebackers taken in round 1 even though Greg Jones, Casey Matthews, Kelvin Sheppard, Bruce Carter, and Quan Sturdivant were all touted as having 1st round talent.

Now, Hightower is one of those guys where I think a GM is going to fall in love with his measurables. The guy is bigger than some DL'men and moves really well. He tackles well. He's smart. He's got decent lateral quickness. He sheds blockers well. And finally, he's got 3 years of experience in an NFL style 3-4 defense. Luke Kuechly may be the best overall MLB in this class, but he doesn't have the upside that Hightower has. If Hightower runs well at the combine and displays good burst and agility, he could propel himself into the top 15 easily.

[Iscull]

I remember hearing a radio show with Jeremiah Trotter talking about Burfict. He says that guys with his passion and physicality are a lost art in the NFL. He said Ray, B-Dawk, and James Harrison are only guys who truely exhbit this kind of feeling.

[GOTA]

Wicked, you really don't think Timmons is not worthy of being taken in round 1? I know he's moved around a lot and not been purely a MLB but he's been a very good player. I think he was the last good 1st round pick the Steelers had.

[wickedsolo]

Wicked, you really don't think Timmons is not worthy of being taken in round 1? I know he's moved around a lot and not been purely a MLB but he's been a very good player. I think he was the last good 1st round pick the Steelers had.

He's a good player, but when you look at that draft class is he really better (or THAT much better) than Poz, David Harris, or Desmond Bishop? I don't think so and what's funny is that both Harris and Bishop have excelled in a 3-4 scheme, so it's not like we can say that Timmons cannot be compared to these other guys from the same draft year.

[ravensinva]

Wicked, you really don't think Timmons is not worthy of being taken in round 1? I know he's moved around a lot and not been purely a MLB but he's been a very good player. I think he was the last good 1st round pick the Steelers had.

I agreed with you on Timmons, he is definitely worthy of a 1st round pick. You don't think Pouncey was a good pick for them?