Oral Arguments

[NCRAVEN]

Flawed as it is, it's still the best system in the world.

Just ask Greece. You can also ask the Canadians. Those across
the border keep coming down here cause they can't get into
hospitals up there. Hospitals along the US border have special
deals to lure Canadiens that have socialized medicine like
OBUMMER CARE.

The guy in this pic wouldn't be alive w/o the care he got for his
heart in the US.


http://www.freep.com/article/2009082...et-health-care

I worked for a company that had offices in Canada and as a result we'd have people go up there to work and vice versa. Anyone I talked to about that healthcare system hated it, unless they never used it, than it was "hey it's great it's free healthcare". So when you ask anyone whose used it or knows someone who tries (And waits for ever) they hate it. Anyone who has neither is oblivious but likes that it's free.

[HoustonRaven]

My wife was in the Peace Corp prior to law school. She lived all over Europe for the better part of 3 years. She has not said one good word about the healthcare she received while over there.

[NCRAVEN]

Day 3 about medicare expansion:
http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arg...rgument=11-400

Kagan is out of control!

[NCRAVEN]

This is too funny, SO tell me Galen is the "inherent difference between a progressive and a conservative thinker" having someone else do the thinking for you?

From Galen:

One has to go back to the debates between Obama and McCain when they discussed healthcare. McCain was an ardent supporter of the mandate and Obama in the corner of a public option. In the end, Obama and the Democrat-led congress pass a compromise bill with the Republican mandate. Two years later, a conservative SCOTUS is going to rule 5-4 against it? Just think about that for a moment. There is no way health insurance will ever truly be reformed without increasing the pool. Its either a mandate, public option or single payor. Anything short of that isn't worth the effort. If they scrape the mandate, they have to scrape the whole law. The mandate is essential and without it, it folds like a house of cards.

From the Obama admin:

The Obama administration is now referring to Obamacare as a “bi-partisan bill” and calling the unpopular individual mandate “a Republican idea,” following three days of tough questioning by the Supreme Court.

From Galen:

Uhhh...that would be the intention of the mandate and the primary reason conservatives came up with the idea. Once Obama adopted the responsibility-enforcing mandate, it became liberty-stripping big government. Nice spin job by the GOP so now we will go back to people not having insurance but continuing to use the health system at your and my cost. But hey, at least Rush will be happy.

From the Obama admin

He also referred to the individual mandate as the “individual responsibility”clause of the bill, in an attempt to distance the administration from the term individual mandate.

http://freebeacon.com/white-house-tr...brand-mandate/

[HoustonRaven]

Galen gets his talking points right from the White House web site?!?!?!

That's too effing funny.

[Galen Sevinne]

This is too funny, SO tell me Galen is the "inherent difference between a progressive and a conservative thinker" having someone else do the thinking for you?

I don't get your claim? This stuff is pretty common sense if you have been reading about the process and understand healthcare. The mandate forces people into being responsible for their own health insurance just like you think they should be. It is a conservative idea. You didn't know this? This was a huge part of the debates in 2008 and no I wasn't a fan of it in as much as I was a fan of other ways to force people into taking responsibility for their health care costs. Single payor would be the optimum but mandate is still better than forcing Doctors to perform healthcare while not forcing patients to pay for it, which is our current system. A "liberty" lovers dream and truly free healthcare. Why buy insurance when I can just show up and the docs office and they have to treat me!

Anyway I am glad you found out that the Obama administration and I agree on healthcare. What an ephinany!

[NCRAVEN]

I don't get your claim?

Pretending to be stupid, again!?

There is no claim here, it is as clear as day that you have started using terms that Whitehouse is trying to use as a way to distance themselves from something sooooo unpopular.

You go around championing progressive thinking, as if it’s something so intelligent few are capable of its high level of thought. When all progressive thinking is, are retread ideas that have NEVER worked, and you just parrot what someone else says and not think for yourself.

That’s what is so funny. Obviously someone of your intellect could see that.

[HoustonRaven]

Pretending to be stupid, again!?

There is no claim here, it is as clear as day that you have started using terms that Whitehouse is trying to use as a way to distance themselves from something sooooo unpopular.

You go around championing progressive thinking, as if it’s something so intelligent few are capable of its high level of thought. When all progressive thinking is, are retread ideas that have NEVER worked, and you just parrot what someone else says and not think for yourself.

That’s what is so funny. Obviously someone of your intellect could see that.

Who knew that all that "intellect" was simply intellectual-plagiarism all along.

This is not too surprising though. Back when I was a more frequent poster, Galen and I got into some pretty good debates and I was actually impressed with some of the things he's said in the past. Then I started watching Dr. Maddow and sure as hell, for a month or two, any topic and accompanying talking points she came up with, Galen posted them here within a day or two.

I figured from that point forward, I'd simply keep watching her. No reason to debate here since the thoughts were coming from her and her network.

I may not agree with her. But I like hearing other sides and at least she has a doctorate.

[AirFlacco]

This is the worst week in history for a sitting president.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...s-obama-style/

[The Fanatic]

Anyway back to OBY, this is the worst week in history for a sitting president.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...s-obama-style/

I'll be damned if that washington times article right there wasn't an ass kicking in itself.

[NCRAVEN]

With the ruling coming today I have a question for everyone.

Kagan is clearly in favor of the law (having participated in crafting the government argument), while I've never heard of a ruling being leaked to the media or public, would anyone put it past Kagan to leak it to the Obama admin so they could come up with how to respond to the ruling (which ever way they vote)?

[HoustonRaven]

The ruling won't be coming today. That won't be released until June.

What you're referring to is the vote. They take a vote on the four issues and write their opinions based on seniority. That vote often times changes during the opinion writing process.

It's rather unprecedented that Justices leak their closed-door deliberations. I have followed the SCOTUS for some time with much interest and cannot think of a time an opinion was leaked by the court.

Lawyers are big on procedure. It's almost a defining quality for all of them, no matter their political persuasion. I doubt Kagen would take such a move as to call the President and leak out what's being discussed.

[NCRAVEN]

The ruling won't be coming today. That won't be released until June.

What you're referring to is the vote. They take a vote on the four issues and write their opinions based on seniority. That vote often times changes during the opinion writing process.

It's rather unprecedented that Justices leak their closed-door deliberations. I have followed the SCOTUS for some time with much interest and cannot think of a time an opinion was leaked by the court.

Lawyers are big on procedure. It's almost a defining quality for all of them, no matter their political persuasion. I doubt Kagen would take such a move as to call the President and leak out what's being discussed.

Yes, I did mean vote. The ruling could change between now and the time it's released to us.

I have no doubts people will pretend the ruling will be released, but I hm about 99.9% certain it won't.

I hear you on Lawyers being big on procedure etc. Obviously by my question I have doubts about Kagan. And that is because, IF that were truly the case for her she would have recused herself as she was clearly helping the Solicitor General try to make his argument, and that's even acknowledged by our resident lefty.

[4G63]

Lawyers are big on procedure. It's almost a defining quality for all of them, no matter their political persuasion. I doubt Kagen would take such a move as to call the President and leak out what's being discussed.

I think just the opposite. I'm thinking they discuss what the recourse will be.

"Aside from their White Sox connection, Kagan also worked with Obama at U of C for several years. NBC Chicago reports that Kagan tried to convince Obama to pursue a life in academia when he was contemplating a run for Senate."

They're as thick as thieves IMO.

[HoustonRaven]

I think just the opposite. I'm thinking they discuss what the recourse will be.



They're as thick as thieves IMO.

She'd be bucking the trend of hundreds of years of relative silence.

Every justice worked for their respective nominating President (or were donors) and they've managed to remain relatively silent for almost 300 years.

[NCRAVEN]

She'd be bucking the trend of hundreds of years of relative silence.

Every justice worked for their respective nominating President (or were donors) and they've managed to remain relatively silent for almost 300 years.

I get all that. I know you read the transcripts, not sure if you listened to the audio. If you heard her tone on some of these questions you can see she is of a different ilk all together. Listen to the last audio clip about medicare expansion, she (I believe) asks the first question, total disregard for anything other than her ideology.

[HoustonRaven]

I get all that. I know you read the transcripts, not sure if you listened to the audio. If you heard her tone on some of these questions you can see she is of a different ilk all together. Listen to the last audio clip about medicare expansion, she (I believe) asks the first question, total disregard for anything other than her ideology.

I've done both. They are all that way.

Find a case that's very pro-conservative and you'll hear Thomas and Scalia doing the same thing.

They are acting that way precisely because of their ideology.

Could Kagen be different? Possible, I suppose. But I don't get how someone listening to her questioning and has also heard the same thing from the other justices can come to that conclusion.

[Galen Sevinne]

I get all that. I know you read the transcripts, not sure if you listened to the audio. If you heard her tone on some of these questions you can see she is of a different ilk all together. Listen to the last audio clip about medicare expansion, she (I believe) asks the first question, total disregard for anything other than her ideology.

yeah thank god the conservatives weren't ideological.

[NCRAVEN]

I've done both. They are all that way.

Find a case that's very pro-conservative and you'll hear Thomas and Scalia doing the same thing.

They are acting that way precisely because of their ideology.

Could Kagen be different? Possible, I suppose. But I don't get how someone listening to her questioning and has also heard the same thing from the other justices can come to that conclusion.

I'd have to go pretty far back to hear Thomas ask a question

You do have a point, however when it comes to this case, I think all justices have been pretty fair about asking questions of both sides. Scalia would be the rights version of Kagan but he has been more fair than her, by far.

[NCRAVEN]

yeah thank god the conservatives weren't ideological.

Thanks for chiming in. Why don't you go back and address the post about you parroting the Whitehouse talking point and the progressive thought process while you're here.