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  1. #157

    Re: Flacco Deal Update...



    Wanna know what kills me?

    Last year, when Flacco's stats were among the best in the league, the usual suspects where all "but that doesn't mean anything, just look at him play".

    Now when people are saying the stats don't tell the whole story, Flacco visibly played better, made more clutch plays, etc, those same people are saying "but his stats went down".

    Those same people also bashed Flacco for not having good numbers in the playoffs. Now that over the last two years his rating is in the mid-upper 90's, they want to dismiss them.

    There is no winning with these people, and quite frankly, I think most of us are getting tired of this stupid, idiotic debate. Look at what this thread, that started out as something informative, has turned into.




  2. #158

    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Noway hes worth rivers money? I realize eli and ben won SBs but at the same point in their respective careers theyre all arguably similar players even statistically. Wanting more isnt necessarily below market price with inflation and considering his age. I believe, may be wrong, but eli has the latest deal and it was signed in 2008? If he was asking to be paid brady or brees money id agree youre better off waiting him out but those deals those guys signed were young qbs you believe will take the next step and can lead your team which i believe he falls under.
    Rivers' year before he got his extension was off-the-charts good. Totally different than Flacco's last year. I am not saying Flacco isn't as good as Rivers (though I probably would). And I am definitely not saying Flacco cannot become better than Rivers will ever be. All I am saying is at the time the contracts were negotiated, Rivers was by FAR more able to argue for big money.

    Rivers signed in August of 2009. His 2008 season consisted of a 105.5 QB rating (best in league by 8 pts), 34 TDs (tied for best in league with Brees), 11 Ints only (6 less than Brees), 4009 yards (5th in league BUT he had way less attempts than those ahead of him such that his YPA was significantly the best in league at 8.39). In short, Rivers could easily argue he was the best QB in the league in 2008; even if he might not quite win that argument, it wouldn't be a stretch to claim that by any means. And since we all agree that you pay people for their trajectory as much as anything, his huge deal was easy to rationalize. Age also isn't relevant to the comparison because Rivers was roughly the same age as Joe is now when he signed; he had played one extra year in the league but came out 1 year earlier than Joe.

    As for BigBen, he signed his 'big' deal in March of 2008. He also had a ring at that point and his stats for the 2007 season, were: QB rating 104.1 (2nd behind Brady), 32 TDs (3rd in league), 'only' 3154 yards, but only 404 attempts, gving him a YPA of 7.81 (4th in the league). He also made the ProBowl. And also the deal was 8 yrs for 'only' $102M, less than $13M per.

    As for total 'career' statistics, I would say that they matter less than the trend/trajectory. And more importantly, passing stats have been going up across the league and completely spiked last year, making it harder to compare year to year totals without some kind of adjustment.

    Eli's big-money extension was signed in the preseason of 2009. If Eli had not won a SuperBowl in 2007 and then followed it up with a significantly improved year statistically (to his fairly mundane stats from 2003-2007) I don't think he gets anywhere near that extension. Eli is the one that is closest to Flacco in terms of performance in the contract year. Eli's year was better but not by a ton, but more importantly it was better than the year before (he improved). And again he had a SB title and SB MVP under his belt.

    While we can agree or disagree about how Flacco's stats are harmed by forces outside his control, the fact remains, he is not coming into the negotiations with as much leverage as these other three were when they signed their deals. QB rating ranking around 15th-18th depending on who you include, TDs tied for 13th, yardage ranked 12th, YPA ranked a pitiful 24th. That doesn't mean he doesn't have leverage obviously, I would just say that it isn't some kind of 'given' that he deserves deals similar to the deals these three signed.

    As for inflation, I hear you and agree, though the salary cap in 2009 was $123M, roughly the same as it will be this year (and maybe next). Also, as has been said, the guaranteed money (and structure/details) is really as crucial as the total and yearly average.
    Last edited by Haloti92; 04-09-2012 at 10:19 PM.




  3. #159
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    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    and the counter arguement is flaccos rating could have been in the 90s if not for PI calls and then a rushing TD, or if not for a few drops, or torreys drop that lead to a INT
    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    First, QB rating isn't '1 stat,' it's four stats rolled into one number, intended to be a measure of overall efficiency of a QB's play. You can debate its validity if you like, but it exists and is constantly referenced because it is one of the better indicators of how well a team is doing offensively. Not just the QB, I grant you--it also says something for how well the receivers are getting the ball, how far they're making it when they catch a pass, etc. About the only thing it measures that is mostly on the QB is interceptions.

    Second, it's like this. Here's two sets of data for you--first, the ratings for all the QBs of the teams that won 12 or more games last year, and then the records of the teams that had QBs which finished the year +/- 5 points of Flacco on the QB rating scale, and who played all 16 games (if you want, throw out Jackson--he only played 15). I posted this earlier, but not in this format, so maybe it'll be clearer this way:

    Rodgers-122.5
    Brees- 110.6
    Brady- 105.6
    Smith- 90.7
    Roethlisberger- 90.1
    Flacco- 80.9

    Newton- 84.9/6 wins
    Hasselbeck- 82.4/9 wins
    Flacco- 80.9/12 wins
    Dalton- 80.4/9 wins
    Jackson- 79.2/7 wins
    Fitzpatrick- 79.1/6 wins
    Sanchez- 78.2/8 wins


    So what does it tell you? Obviously, it's not a large enough sample size to say anything definitively, but it does show two things--that Flacco's QB rating was by far the worst of the teams that were the 'elite' of the league last year, and that QBs who got ratings similar to Flacco tended to win far fewer games.

    So... upon seeing this, it raises a few questions for me, and makes one thing seem likely. The latter first--getting high quality (statistically) play out of whoever is at the QB position is less important to the Ravens than it is to other teams (or, at least it was to the 2011 Ravens--maybe 2012 will be different). If you get 12 wins with an 80.9 rating, you're apparently making up for that deficiency in other areas (defense, running... probably not special teams!). The questions it raises are these--how many wins would that have been at a 90 rating? How many at a 70 rating? If that's the spread you're working with, what's that actually worth paying for?

    Is this in any way definitive? Am I saying I'm right? Not at all. But I think it's a logical, cogent viewpoint, and I think that I want to see another year of this offense before I spend any big money on any part of it, if I'm the Ravens FO. You may be right--Cam may be the whole problem. The Ravens should have gotten rid of him just to see what would happen, IMO. But until you've got a better idea as to exactly where the problem is... I wouldn't throw a lot of cash around.




  4. #160
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    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by arnie_uk View Post
    and the counter arguement is flaccos rating could have been in the 90s if not for PI calls and then a rushing TD, or if not for a few drops, or torreys drop that lead to a INT
    Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger et al also had drops. Please don't start playing the coulda woulda shouda game. Flacco is entering his 5th year. He is who he is. Enough with the excuses.




  5. #161
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    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by alienrace View Post
    Wanna know what kills me?

    Last year, when Flacco's stats were among the best in the league, the usual suspects where all "but that doesn't mean anything, just look at him play".

    Now when people are saying the stats don't tell the whole story, Flacco visibly played better, made more clutch plays, etc, those same people are saying "but his stats went down".

    Those same people also bashed Flacco for not having good numbers in the playoffs. Now that over the last two years his rating is in the mid-upper 90's, they want to dismiss them.

    There is no winning with these people, and quite frankly, I think most of us are getting tired of this stupid, idiotic debate. Look at what this thread, that started out as something informative, has turned into.



    Great post and completely true.
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  6. #162
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    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by ballhawk View Post
    Flacco had a great season last year...what the hell are you guys talking about? And he did it with a cast of rookie and 2nd year receivers (who probably led the league in dropped passes). He is going to get $100 million...and he is worth it.
    Agreed. He was a Lee Evans drop away from taking the Ravens to the Superbowl. I'm excited for this season to see what the Flacco-Smith connection can do with a year under their belts working together.




  7. #163
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    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsfan82 View Post
    Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger et al also had drops. Please don't start playing the coulda woulda shouda game. Flacco is entering his 5th year. He is who he is. Enough with the excuses.
    Are you insinuating that players can't get better each year?

    Or, are you pretty much claiming that players only have a "4 or 5 year window to become what they are".


    I also like how you include Rodgers and Roethlisberger in this convo when Rodgers had a top 5 defense when the Packers won the Super Bowl and Roethlisberger has had a top 5 defense every year he's been in the league...yet you're one of the posters who are so quick to claim that the Ravens defense is REALLY the reason why the Ravens win and are constantly bailing Joe out.
    Last edited by wickedsolo; 04-10-2012 at 06:31 AM.
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  8. #164
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    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    its not an excuse, its a clear flaw in his arguement taking QB rating as the be all and end all
    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsfan82 View Post
    Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger et al also had drops. Please don't start playing the coulda woulda shouda game. Flacco is entering his 5th year. He is who he is. Enough with the excuses.




  9. #165

    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Rivers' year before he got his extension was off-the-charts good. Totally different than Flacco's last year. I am not saying Flacco isn't as good as Rivers (though I probably would). And I am definitely not saying Flacco cannot become better than Rivers will ever be. All I am saying is at the time the contracts were negotiated, Rivers was by FAR more able to argue for big money.

    Rivers signed in August of 2009. His 2008 season consisted of a 105.5 QB rating (best in league by 8 pts), 34 TDs (tied for best in league with Brees), 11 Ints only (6 less than Brees), 4009 yards (5th in league BUT he had way less attempts than those ahead of him such that his YPA was significantly the best in league at 8.39). In short, Rivers could easily argue he was the best QB in the league in 2008; even if he might not quite win that argument, it wouldn't be a stretch to claim that by any means. And since we all agree that you pay people for their trajectory as much as anything, his huge deal was easy to rationalize. Age also isn't relevant to the comparison because Rivers was roughly the same age as Joe is now when he signed; he had played one extra year in the league but came out 1 year earlier than Joe.

    As for BigBen, he signed his 'big' deal in March of 2008. He also had a ring at that point and his stats for the 2007 season, were: QB rating 104.1 (2nd behind Brady), 32 TDs (3rd in league), 'only' 3154 yards, but only 404 attempts, gving him a YPA of 7.81 (4th in the league). He also made the ProBowl. And also the deal was 8 yrs for 'only' $102M, less than $13M per.

    As for total 'career' statistics, I would say that they matter less than the trend/trajectory. And more importantly, passing stats have been going up across the league and completely spiked last year, making it harder to compare year to year totals without some kind of adjustment.

    Eli's big-money extension was signed in the preseason of 2009. If Eli had not won a SuperBowl in 2007 and then followed it up with a significantly improved year statistically (to his fairly mundane stats from 2003-2007) I don't think he gets anywhere near that extension. Eli is the one that is closest to Flacco in terms of performance in the contract year. Eli's year was better but not by a ton, but more importantly it was better than the year before (he improved). And again he had a SB title and SB MVP under his belt.

    While we can agree or disagree about how Flacco's stats are harmed by forces outside his control, the fact remains, he is not coming into the negotiations with as much leverage as these other three were when they signed their deals. QB rating ranking around 15th-18th depending on who you include, TDs tied for 13th, yardage ranked 12th, YPA ranked a pitiful 24th. That doesn't mean he doesn't have leverage obviously, I would just say that it isn't some kind of 'given' that he deserves deals similar to the deals these three signed.

    As for inflation, I hear you and agree, though the salary cap in 2009 was $123M, roughly the same as it will be this year (and maybe next). Also, as has been said, the guaranteed money (and structure/details) is really as crucial as the total and yearly average.
    i completely agree that he doesnt have as much leverage as he would have had, even the year before. I do think the team realizes those outside factors but obviously are going to use that for their benefit, making now the best time to sign him rather than waiting a year when, in a reality his stats will probably go back up closer to his previous trajectory and give him more leverage. I think with everything said hes still going to end up getting in that 6-7 for 85-100 with 35-40 guaranteed range simply because thats what its going to take to sign him and they have to.

    Quote Originally Posted by alienrace View Post
    Wanna know what kills me?

    Last year, when Flacco's stats were among the best in the league, the usual suspects where all "but that doesn't mean anything, just look at him play".

    Now when people are saying the stats don't tell the whole story, Flacco visibly played better, made more clutch plays, etc, those same people are saying "but his stats went down".

    Those same people also bashed Flacco for not having good numbers in the playoffs. Now that over the last two years his rating is in the mid-upper 90's, they want to dismiss them.

    There is no winning with these people, and quite frankly, I think most of us are getting tired of this stupid, idiotic debate. Look at what this thread, that started out as something informative, has turned into.
    I agree with this as well. A lot of people just have their mind made up about Flacco and there is no reasoning with them. theyll use whatever they can cling to try to support their hatred. I feel some of these guys are the ones still crying about Troy Smith as well... where is he again?
    -JAB




  10. #166

    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    The only difference between Eli and Joe at this point in their careers is that Eli had receivers catching balls off their helmets and Joe has receivers dropping passes in their arms.

    The defense has not bailed Joe out. The defense has held the offense back. The mentality of the Ravens is for the offense to not lose the game. The game plans are ultra conservative. The Oline can't run block of pass block. Rice is supposedly this great back yet the Ravens are only a mediocre running team. Middle of the road in total yards and yards per carry. The oline is poorly coached. We are one of the few remaining teams that use a full back and only go from the shotgun on obvious passing situations. This offense would turn Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers into mediocre QBs. Joe and Ray would be infinitely more successful in the Ravens opened up the offense. Ray Rice is the ideal back for a more spread offense yet the Ravens utilize him as if he is Jerome Bettis. And yet the Ravens can't even pick up short yardage when necessary. The running game and Rice disappeared in the playoffs. It was not until Cam opened it up against the Pats that they had any success. The Oline could not run block or pass block against Houston.

    The Ravens offense is where good QBs go to die. Joe should be hoping to go to a team with a real OC and offensive philosophy.




  11. #167

    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Are you insinuating that players can't get better each year?

    Or, are you pretty much claiming that players only have a "4 or 5 year window to become what they are".


    I also like how you include Rodgers and Roethlisberger in this convo when Rodgers had a top 5 defense when the Packers won the Super Bowl and Roethlisberger has had a top 5 defense every year he's been in the league...yet you're one of the posters who are so quick to claim that the Ravens defense is REALLY the reason why the Ravens win and are constantly bailing Joe out.




  12. #168
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    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Are you insinuating that players can't get better each year?

    Or, are you pretty much claiming that players only have a "4 or 5 year window to become what they are".


    I also like how you include Rodgers and Roethlisberger in this convo when Rodgers had a top 5 defense when the Packers won the Super Bowl and Roethlisberger has had a top 5 defense every year he's been in the league...yet you're one of the posters who are so quick to claim that the Ravens defense is REALLY the reason why the Ravens win and are constantly bailing Joe out.
    Any player entering his 5th year is pretty much who he's going to be. Especially given the fact that he's started every game and has additional starts in the post season. Flacco will never be Rodgers, Brady or Brees or Roethlisberger for that matter. But that's not an indictment. Those are very very talented quarterbacks. Flacco can win a Superbowl if they continue to build around him. And to answer your second question, Rodgers and Roethlisberger rode those great defenses to championships. Flacco hasn't yet.




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