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  1. #133

    Re: Flacco Deal Update...



    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    I'm not exclusively blaming Flacco for his stats taking a plunge last year--there could be any number of reasons for that. You mention the new receivers--there's also the shortened offseason from the lockout to consider (though all teams had to deal with that, and it was a record year for passing in several respects), as well as the possibility that it might have something to do with Cameron not being entirely in tune with reality, as so many fans seem to think. Frankly, I'm sorry we lost the opportunity to change that variable--I'm not convinced that Cameron's the problem, but I would have been willing to tell him to GTFO if for no other reason than to make a change and see what happened as a result of that change.

    The point I'm trying to make is that in comparison to the defense, the offense is subpar, and is IMO a much smaller part of the reason that the Ravens win so many games. I don't know that the problem with the offense is Flacco, but I don't know that it isn't either, and I'm not going to ignore the possibility that he's at least part of the problem, as so many seem to do. I hope he does well this year, because I really want the Ravens to do well this year. However, I think you're being a blind fanboy if you don't think it's a reasonable possibility that we might be able to do better with a different QB, particularly based on the drop in performance Flacco had in 2011.

    Sometimes it's the right thing to do to sign a player immediately--sometimes a bit of circumspection is warranted. I just think this is the latter situation.
    Is is possible another QB comes in and plays better... yes. Is it reasonable to consider... not really. who would you want thats actually attainable? outside Manning Brees Brady and maybe Rodgers i dont think there is another QB that is without argument an upgrade to Flacco, imo. there are QBs id still say are better but not so much as to think its worth getting rid of him for and thats in a fantasy world where other top QBs are available, which they arent and not easily drafted either, certainly when youre always winning and at the end of the rounds.
    -JAB




  2. #134
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    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    just wondering why this post was ignored, no comeback i guess? or just thinking about the reply still
    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    This quote needs to be remembered as very telling of where your opinions lie in regards to Flacco. You are one of many posters here who claim to be neutral in his respect and decry other posters for being "pro-Flacco" and ignoring what you call "facts," but you can't keep your own incorrigible bias from sneaking out.

    It is absolutely ludicrous to say Flacco had two "gift wrapped TDs." How in the world can you make a statement like that on one hand and on the other hand claim neutrality? Only someone who was profoundly biased against Flacco could say something like that.

    Even if Flacco was the beneficiary of good defensive play against Houston, he was under siege the entire game with an OL who couldn't block anyone and a RB who couldn't get 3 yards if his life depended on it. The TD to Boldin in particular was a thing of beauty made from under pressure. Nothing is "gift wrapped" in this league.

    Of course, I suppose it can't be mentioned how, by your logic, 5 of Rice's 12 rushing TDs came as a result of long passing plays that were downed inside the 10 yard line or by DPI in the EZ? Those would be "gift wrapped" by your logic, but that doesn't "fit the narrative," does it?

    I thought the TEAM won and lost games? Why, then, are you attributing the loss to Flacco? I know why: because it suits your argument at the moment. Flacco should receive blame for the loss, but not credit for the wins.

    Is it too much to ask for these rabid haters to stay consistent within their own arguments?




  3. #135
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    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by arnie_uk View Post
    just wondering why this post was ignored, no comeback i guess? or just thinking about the reply still
    Incapable of a decent rebuttle.
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  4. #136

    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsfan82 View Post
    Some of it is. To deny that would be disingenuous. I'm just not ready to anoint him as the sole reason, that's all. John Harbaugh has brought a level of consistency with him that we never enjoyed under Billick, who let the inmates run the asylum.
    Yet you'll be the first to blame Flacco if we don't make the playoffs.




  5. #137

    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Incapable of a decent rebuttle.
    Who is more productive and what is fair really has no place in this debate. At the end of the day its about which player can be more easily replaced if your forced to make a choice. The reality is that it will be far easier to find a running back who can step in and do a decent job than a QB. You can win in the NFL without a top flight RB, you cant win in the NFL without a decent starting QB. Flacco is a far far more valuable commodity than Rice. If it comes down to it, there is no question they will let Rice walk and franchise Joe if they had to. Ray will not get the tag if they both are UFA's unless something unforeseen happens.

    Far as Rice is concerned, giving him AP or CJ money would be a stupid move on the part of the franchise. Its debatable who is better (Foster or Rice) but they are close enough in terms of stats and production that Fosters deal or a tad bit more should be were the Ravens should expect to pay.
    A linebacker's job is to knock out running backs, to knock out receivers, to chase the football,
    -Ray Lewis




  6. #138
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    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenous1 View Post
    Who is more productive and what is fair really has no place in this debate. At the end of the day its about which player can be more easily replaced if your forced to make a choice. The reality is that it will be far easier to find a running back who can step in and do a decent job than a QB. You can win in the NFL without a top flight RB, you cant win in the NFL without a decent starting QB. Flacco is a far far more valuable commodity than Rice. If it comes down to it, there is no question they will let Rice walk and franchise Joe if they had to. Ray will not get the tag if they both are UFA's unless something unforeseen happens.

    Far as Rice is concerned, giving him AP or CJ money would be a stupid move on the part of the franchise. Its debatable who is better (Foster or Rice) but they are close enough in terms of stats and production that Fosters deal or a tad bit more should be were the Ravens should expect to pay.
    Pretty much sums up how I feel.

    There are certain posters on this board and in this thread who think that Flacco isn't worth the charmin he wipes his butt with though.
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  7. #139

    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Is is possible another QB comes in and plays better... yes. Is it reasonable to consider... not really. who would you want thats actually attainable? outside Manning Brees Brady and maybe Rodgers i dont think there is another QB that is without argument an upgrade to Flacco, imo. there are QBs id still say are better but not so much as to think its worth getting rid of him for and thats in a fantasy world where other top QBs are available, which they arent and not easily drafted either, certainly when youre always winning and at the end of the rounds.
    Nowhere did I say "get rid of Flacco." What I did say is don't tie up a lot of money in him right now, until there's a better idea as to whether or not last year was an aberration. If he goes from 93.6 rating in 2010 to 80.9 in 2011 back to ~90 or better in 2012... okay, put some money into him, I'll feel like it's worth it. If the 2012 number is ~85 or lower... I don't know, I think you really have to start thinking about how much money you give him in a long-term deal at that point. If the Ravens are going to continue to win games mostly on the backs of having a great defense (as they've been doing, IMO), doesn't it make sense to keep as much of the cap space as possible free to spend on the defensive side of the ball? If Flacco's never again going to perform at a level higher than last year, but the Ravens still win 12 games with that level of performance, why bother spending a lot of money on offense?

    The cap gymnastics dictate that you can't have it all--no team can afford to have a Ray Lewis, an Ed Reed, a Haloti Ngata, a Terrell Suggs, a Lardarius Webb, AND a Payton Manning, an Adrian Peterson, a Calvin Johnson, a Rob Gronkowski, etc. As a team, the Ravens are decisively committed to excellence on the defensive side of the football. I don't know what the cap numbers are for the Ravens, but it would surprise me if more than 50% of the Ravens cap space is not committed to the defense. So if you want to spend big on offense, you're going to take away from that. What level of QB performance is worth not being able to keep Suggs? Webb? Ngata? Forget Reed and Lewis, they're going to be out of here relatively soon anyway, but as a fan base I doubt we accept Joe Schmoes as their replacements. Giving Flacco (or Rice, for that matter) a big deal won't affect that right now, but in a year or two? I'm no cap expert, but I think it would. So you're willing to take that risk, after what you saw out of Flacco last year?

    Not me...




  8. #140

    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    Nowhere did I say "get rid of Flacco." What I did say is don't tie up a lot of money in him right now, until there's a better idea as to whether or not last year was an aberration. If he goes from 93.6 rating in 2010 to 80.9 in 2011 back to ~90 or better in 2012... okay, put some money into him, I'll feel like it's worth it. If the 2012 number is ~85 or lower... I don't know, I think you really have to start thinking about how much money you give him in a long-term deal at that point. If the Ravens are going to continue to win games mostly on the backs of having a great defense (as they've been doing, IMO), doesn't it make sense to keep as much of the cap space as possible free to spend on the defensive side of the ball? If Flacco's never again going to perform at a level higher than last year, but the Ravens still win 12 games with that level of performance, why bother spending a lot of money on offense?

    The cap gymnastics dictate that you can't have it all--no team can afford to have a Ray Lewis, an Ed Reed, a Haloti Ngata, a Terrell Suggs, a Lardarius Webb, AND a Payton Manning, an Adrian Peterson, a Calvin Johnson, a Rob Gronkowski, etc. As a team, the Ravens are decisively committed to excellence on the defensive side of the football. I don't know what the cap numbers are for the Ravens, but it would surprise me if more than 50% of the Ravens cap space is not committed to the defense. So if you want to spend big on offense, you're going to take away from that. What level of QB performance is worth not being able to keep Suggs? Webb? Ngata? Forget Reed and Lewis, they're going to be out of here relatively soon anyway, but as a fan base I doubt we accept Joe Schmoes as their replacements. Giving Flacco (or Rice, for that matter) a big deal won't affect that right now, but in a year or two? I'm no cap expert, but I think it would. So you're willing to take that risk, after what you saw out of Flacco last year?

    Not me...
    Are you seriously willing to put so much faith in QB rating that you'll decide whether to re-sign Flacco based on 10 points of variance from year to year? I'm sorry, but for as logical and intelligent as you sound, the core of your argument is very dubious.

    Prognosticate over 10 points worth of QB rating as much as you want, but here's a simpler explanation: 1) a given player's performance doesn't exist in a vacuum, 2) because of that fact, a certain degree of variance one way or the other is COMPLETELY unavoidable, 3) you can't be sure that variance is due entirely or mostly to the player himself.

    Case in point: as I said earlier, 5 (or possibly 6, depending on how you want to define it) of Ray Rice's rushing TDs in 2011 came as a result of a long pass play downed within the 10 yard line or a DPI in the end zone. If those 5 TDs are passing TDs, Flacco's QB rating goes up almost 5 points.

    Does that "really" mean he was 5 points better? I think we can all agree that is not necessarily the case.

    You can play with the numbers however you want, but to pin all your hopes on QB rating is, in a word, hopeless. I don't care what Flacco's QB rating is in 2012 if he's helping his team win, particularly when the chips are down and no one else seems to be stepping up. He did exactly that often enough to convince me last year.

    And I'm not an anti-stats guy. I'm actually pretty big on stats in a lot of respects. But you'll never see a Cam Cameron passer post gaudy stats under ANY circumstances. Drew Brees has been the most consistently excellent passer of the last 5 years, and even he only broke a 90 QB rating once under Cam, in 2004. His average QB rating in San Diego was an 84.9, slightly lower than Joe's career average, and he was a worse passer on the whole in San Diego. Do you think that's a coincidence? I don't, and I think it further illustrates why pinning all your hopes on 1 stat is a mistake.




  9. #141

    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    Nowhere did I say "get rid of Flacco." What I did say is don't tie up a lot of money in him right now, until there's a better idea as to whether or not last year was an aberration. If he goes from 93.6 rating in 2010 to 80.9 in 2011 back to ~90 or better in 2012... okay, put some money into him, I'll feel like it's worth it. If the 2012 number is ~85 or lower... I don't know, I think you really have to start thinking about how much money you give him in a long-term deal at that point. If the Ravens are going to continue to win games mostly on the backs of having a great defense (as they've been doing, IMO), doesn't it make sense to keep as much of the cap space as possible free to spend on the defensive side of the ball? If Flacco's never again going to perform at a level higher than last year, but the Ravens still win 12 games with that level of performance, why bother spending a lot of money on offense?

    The cap gymnastics dictate that you can't have it all--no team can afford to have a Ray Lewis, an Ed Reed, a Haloti Ngata, a Terrell Suggs, a Lardarius Webb, AND a Payton Manning, an Adrian Peterson, a Calvin Johnson, a Rob Gronkowski, etc. As a team, the Ravens are decisively committed to excellence on the defensive side of the football. I don't know what the cap numbers are for the Ravens, but it would surprise me if more than 50% of the Ravens cap space is not committed to the defense. So if you want to spend big on offense, you're going to take away from that. What level of QB performance is worth not being able to keep Suggs? Webb? Ngata? Forget Reed and Lewis, they're going to be out of here relatively soon anyway, but as a fan base I doubt we accept Joe Schmoes as their replacements. Giving Flacco (or Rice, for that matter) a big deal won't affect that right now, but in a year or two? I'm no cap expert, but I think it would. So you're willing to take that risk, after what you saw out of Flacco last year?

    Not me...
    I see what youre saying. I personally think last year was an aberration and i believe the previous two years suggest that. I think what we did as an offense and him in particular did with basically an entirely rookie corps outside Boldin was impressive, not a disappointment. I dont think overly investing on either side of the ball is the best thing for the team, which is in part why we didnt win as much as we should have with a top defense all those years. the team that wins it all usually is a well rounded team and those teams that arent seem to be getting exposed in the playoffs (GB NE SF NO etc). right now we have the majority of our money in defense and the league is obviously going to an offensive league. I do think Joe has shown enough to warrant that investment as finding his replacement wouldnt be easy. as a fan i dont ever want to lose that elite defensive mentality, but its certainly something that could be sacrificed somewhat in the future to get the best overall team. I think theyre going to spend that money on flacco regardless and need to because he is the key piece to it. if anything since his stats went down this past year it gives the team more leverage, as opposed to letting him play and coming off a better year. They know what he is, and with all the variables to last year i think its smart they sign him now because i do believe he will have a better year statistically just based on the growth of our young players. which you may be hopeful for but obviously dont believe he will.
    -JAB




  10. #142
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    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Flacco had a great season last year...what the hell are you guys talking about? And he did it with a cast of rookie and 2nd year receivers (who probably led the league in dropped passes). He is going to get $100 million...and he is worth it.




  11. #143

    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Lots of back and forth here. This thread went from "Flacco's deal update" to "Is Flacco worth a big deal". Give him a deal somewhere between Kevin Kolb/Tom Cassell and Eli Manning/Phillip Rivers.
    Some ravens fans forget what our QB history looked like in the 12 years before Joe arrived. Maybe we've forgotten what good QB play looks like given the recent of history of bad QB play. Flacco is the real deal. Surround him with a little more talent and creativity (Cam are you listening?) to suit his strengths he will take us to next level.




  12. #144
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    Re: Flacco Deal Update...

    Originally Posted by BcRaven
    Are you talking about the Ravens or the Browns? It seems like you'd like to see the Ravens fail so you could jump on Flacco with both feet, but it hasn't happened yet. You're gonna have to wait some years for that IMO... Bc

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsfan82 View Post
    Mind reading fail. When you assume.....fill in the rest.
    Excellent comeback for a 3rd grader... Bc




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