Flacco Deal Update...

[pickles]

Exactly. I just dont know why other posters don't get this. Unless, Rice realizes this he will be gone next season. He won't get anymore $ than Foster who can do things Rice
can't. He should sign a Foster like deal and consider himself
lucky. For over 10 years now we have basically got the same numbers from RB's in Baltimore no matter who carries the ball, but Rice is not good in short yardage which are the most important plays.

What don't we get? Your opinion? We get it, becuase you've been very forthright w it. What you don't seem to get is that it is just that: Your opinion. It isn't a fact.

Now, I'm not saying you pay Rice whatever he wants. Personally, I think a deal in the Foster range, even if it exceeds it by a bit, is fine. An AP or CJ contract is not. However, the idea that we'd somehow be BETTER off w/o Rice, is downright absurd imo.

This offense has ran through RR for three years now. Flacco struggled imo to adjust w/o Mason and Heap, which is why his numbers were down this year; it would be far worse w/o Rice. I think RR masks alot of Flacco's and the offenses' shortcomings.

Now, for all the he can't get the 4th-1 talk, he set a franchise record last year for rushing tds, so a few high-profile failures in the playoffs, against D-Lines which were owning our OL, doesn't negate that fact.

[GOTA]

I've been sating since last season, you let Eice walk after this season, No recenr championship team, has alot of money tied into one runner. It's the new NFL, thats why this hasn't been done, and i doubt it does. Running backs can be found alot of places, ans thet arent one injury from obscurity. The Superbowl teams are winning it with passing attacks, and defenses equipped to stop them. I love RR, one of my favorite players, but this is a business. RB's aren't as valuable in the new NFL, especially ones who cant convert, third, and fourth, and short, especially in the red zone.

They're also winning with better quarterbacks and wide receivers than the Ravens have. If they are committed to Flacco they're going to need a strong running game. If they want to be like the Giants, Packers or Saints they need a better QB and much better receivers.

[leachisabeast]

They're also winning with better quarterbacks and wide receivers than the Ravens have. If they are committed to Flacco they're going to need a strong running game. If they want to be like the Giants, Packers or Saints they need a better QB and much better receivers.

This ^^^... People need to understand that we are never going to have the offense Green Bay has with our receivers, and I'm not sold that Flacco will ever be as good as Rogers.

[Ravenswintitle]

This ^^^... People need to understand that we are never going to have the offense Green Bay has with our receivers, and I'm not sold that Flacco will ever be as good as Rogers.

Haven't you heard he's the best in the league?

[pslholder96]

I just don't see it. Again, no question Flacco has been the QB for a lot of games won by the Ravens... but that happened as a result of not only him.

Flacco had a QB rating of 80.9 last year, which put him 18th in the league. Admittedly, QB rating isn't the be-all-end-all, but it does serve as a measure of efficiency that does have some correlation to winning games. So... the Ravens were capable of winning 12 games last year with a QB rating of 80.9. How many more games do they win if it's 90? What's a QB rating of 80 worth? What's the record of other teams who had a QB rating of ~80? Newton 84.5 rating/6 wins, Hasselbeck: 82.4/9, Dalton 80.4/9, Jackson 79.2/7, Fitzpatrick 79.1/6, Sanchez 78.2/8... That works out to an average of 7.5 wins, and a standard deviation of 1.37. So the Ravens got more than three standard deviations more wins than other teams with similar QB play.... that's a pretty FAR outlier. The big difference is the team with 12 wins also had the 3rd-ranked scoring defense... IMO.

I don't think Flacco gets any kind of a mega-deal from anyone else based on his body of work so far. That's why I'd be willing, were I the Ravens front office, to see what 2012 brings. If Flacco improves, great--it may cost more money, but it could also be a good problem to have. If he doesn't... well, it's frankly not that hard to find QBs who can average a rating of 80 for the year.

Oh Really??..We were struggling to find a franchise type QB for 12 years before Joe came along.

[redmike34]

I think your post is so far off, I don't even know where to begin. If you believe posting averages/standard deviations will decrease Joe's value then I strongly disagree. AND if you think it's easy to find a QB like him (" it's frankly not that hard to find QBs who can average a rating of 80 for the year") then you're so beguiled by numbers that you've lost sight of the most important ones...WINS and LOSSES. IMO FLacco is a winner, and if you believe it would be easy to replace him, then we are at opposite ends of the QB spectrum... Bc

Flacco doesn't win or lose games... the Baltimore Ravens do. If you think that Joe Flacco is more responsible for the 44 regular season wins over the last four years, when by any statistical measure he's performed as an average-to-slightly-above-average QB over that time, than the defense which has been top-three in the league in scoring defense over that time, then I think you're deluding yourself. Pair the Ravens offense of the last four years with, say, the Cleveland Browns defense, and those 44 wins get cut in half. At least.

Stats are not the be-all-end-all, but they exist for several reasons, and within their context they describe reality pretty well. That's why every human endeavor, football included, makes use of them so as to improve human performance. What I showed you was that the number of wins the Ravens got last year is FAR out of proportion to the statistical quality of play they got from the QB position. Let's look at it from the other way--what was the average QB rating of teams that got 12+ wins last year? Rodgers 122.5, Brees 110.6, Brady 105.6, Smith 90.7, Roethlis 90.1. See a pattern?

I'm 100% on board with evaluation on the basis of wins and losses... it helps to have an accurate analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the team that lead to those wins and losses. By any measure, the Ravens defense is a better unit than the offense is. I believe that has a lot more to do with the number of W/L over the last four years than the fact that Joe Flacco has been the QB for those years.

I don't see a single thing in your post that makes me believe Flacco is the reason the Ravens are in the playoffs every year. I'm showing you hard numbers which reasonably indicate that it's probably more because of the defense than because of Flacco, or anyone on the offensive side of the ball.

[redmike34]

Oh Really??..We were struggling to find a franchise type QB for 12 years before Joe came along.

Haha. Well, look on the bright side--you could be a Bears fan. Their all-time leading passer is Sid Luckman, who last played in an NFL game in 1950...

[JAB1985]

Flacco doesn't win or lose games... the Baltimore Ravens do. If you think that Joe Flacco is more responsible for the 44 regular season wins over the last four years, when by any statistical measure he's performed as an average-to-slightly-above-average QB over that time, than the defense which has been top-three in the league in scoring defense over that time, then I think you're deluding yourself. Pair the Ravens offense of the last four years with, say, the Cleveland Browns defense, and those 44 wins get cut in half. At least.

Stats are not the be-all-end-all, but they exist for several reasons, and within their context they describe reality pretty well. That's why every human endeavor, football included, makes use of them so as to improve human performance. What I showed you was that the number of wins the Ravens got last year is FAR out of proportion to the statistical quality of play they got from the QB position. Let's look at it from the other way--what was the average QB rating of teams that got 12+ wins last year? Rodgers 122.5, Brees 110.6, Brady 105.6, Smith 90.7, Roethlis 90.1. See a pattern?

I'm 100% on board with evaluation on the basis of wins and losses... it helps to have an accurate analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the team that lead to those wins and losses. By any measure, the Ravens defense is a better unit than the offense is. I believe that has a lot more to do with the number of W/L over the last four years than the fact that Joe Flacco has been the QB for those years.

I don't see a single thing in your post that makes me believe Flacco is the reason the Ravens are in the playoffs every year. I'm showing you hard numbers which reasonably indicate that it's probably more because of the defense than because of Flacco, or anyone on the offensive side of the ball.

And joe flacco was the 13t highest rated in 2009 and 7th highest in 2010 and then fell off this year adter all of his top recievers were gone. Hes basically supporting your evidence that good qbs make the playoffs. Despite a down statistical year hes still a good qb and history supports that as well as the ravens record/consistency. The ravens dont make the playoffs without him and he doesnt without the rest of the team but qb being the most important position he has a large part in that success.

[Boulderraven]

What don't we get? Your opinion? We get it, becuase you've been very forthright w it. What you don't seem to get is that it is just that: Your opinion. It isn't a fact.

Now, I'm not saying you pay Rice whatever he wants. Personally, I think a deal in the Foster range, even if it exceeds it by a bit, is fine. An AP or CJ contract is not. However, the idea that we'd somehow be BETTER off w/o Rice, is downright absurd imo.

This offense has ran through RR for three years now. Flacco struggled imo to adjust w/o Mason and Heap, which is why his numbers were down this year; it would be far worse w/o Rice. I think RR masks alot of Flacco's and the offenses'
shortcomings.








Now, for all the he can't get the 4th-1 talk, he set a franchise record last year for rushing tds, so a few high-profile failures in the playoffs, against D-Lines which were owning our OL, doesn't negate that fact.

Most of his TD's where longer runs. One thing to remember the Ravens made the AFCC game 4 years ago and Rice was our 3rd leading rusher behind Mcgahee and MCClain. Rice can't get 3rd and short for TD's or first downs consistently everyone knows that.

[redmike34]

And joe flacco was the 13t highest rated in 2009 and 7th highest in 2010 and then fell off this year adter all of his top recievers were gone. Hes basically supporting your evidence that good qbs make the playoffs. Despite a down statistical year hes still a good qb and history supports that as well as the ravens record/consistency. The ravens dont make the playoffs without him and he doesnt without the rest of the team but qb being the most important position he has a large part in that success.

I'm not putting up any evidence that good QBs make the playoffs... at least, such was not my intent. Judging by Tebow, it's apparent that bad QBs make the playoffs as well, though perhaps less frequently.

Look--I'm not hating on Flacco. I hope he passes for a zillion yards next year, wins the Super Bowl in a blowout and has the Swedish bikini team fall in love with him. I am not, however, going to be blind to the fact that last year was not as good as it should have been. And if I were the Ravens front office, I'd make damn sure last year was an aberration before I committed a lot of money to him.

[pickles]

Most of his TD's where longer runs.

Oh, I didn't know that somehow negated them. Foolishly, I thought that made them more valuable.

One thing to remember the Ravens made the AFCC game 4 years ago and Rice was our 3rd leading rusher behind Mcgahee and MCClain.

Yeah, and A) He still had a better YPC average than either of them, and B) It's amazing to think that he might have improved from his rookie year, but it's possible.

ce can't get 3rd and short for TD's or first downs consistently everyone knows that.

Oh does "everyone?"

I remember when everyone knew that John Elway couldn't win the big one.

I remember when everyone knew that Vernon Davis was a head-case bust.

I remember when we didn't make political statements in the football forums.

In my experience, everyone doesn't know shit.

[pickles]

I'm not putting up any evidence that good QBs make the playoffs... at least, such was not my intent. Judging by Tebow, it's apparent that bad QBs make the playoffs as well, though perhaps less frequently.

Perhaps? Do you really need to modify that statement?

Of course, bad QBs make the playoffs less frequently. The same goes for bad teams. But it doesn't give much insight into Flacco though.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Now, I'm not saying you pay Rice whatever he wants. Personally, I think a deal in the Foster range, even if it exceeds it by a bit, is fine. An AP or CJ contract is not. However, the idea that we'd somehow be BETTER off w/o Rice, is downright absurd imo.

[leachisabeast]

Oh, I didn't know that somehow negated them. Foolishly, I thought that made them more valuable.





Yeah, and A) He still had a better YPC average than either of them, and B) It's amazing to think that he might have improved from his rookie year, but it's possible.




Oh does "everyone?"

I remember when everyone knew that John Elway couldn't win the big one.

I remember when everyone knew that Vernon Davis was a head-case bust.

I remember when everyone knew that Iraq was responsible for 9-11.

In my experience, everyone doesn't know shit.

Don't waste your time on him, he is impossible, he just has some passionate hatred towards Rice lol

[lovefootball]

Oh, I didn't know that somehow negated them. Foolishly, I thought that made them more valuable.





Yeah, and A) He still had a better YPC average than either of them, and B) It's amazing to think that he might have improved from his rookie year, but it's possible.




Oh does "everyone?"

I remember when everyone knew that John Elway couldn't win the big one.

I remember when everyone knew that Vernon Davis was a head-case bust.

I remember when everyone knew that Iraq was responsible for 9-11.

In my experience, everyone doesn't know shit.

Sucks when the know it alls are wrong. Still Wacco for Flacco!

[landspeed]

Signing Flacco longterm is 10X more important than inking Rice.

Rice is maybe the best receiving back in the league. He is the beneficiary of being in Cam's offense where he is main short/checkdown option with all our WRs running deep routes (and not adept at getting open, I might add). That's why Ray gets a lot of balsl thrown his way, and he is pretty damn good in space.

Running the ball.... I'm not as up as many of you are on Rice's production. Last year, I think he left far too many yards on field with Leach opening up a hole, and Rice not following his path of destruction. Sure Rice broke a lot of big ones, but he sure had a bunch of 2yd gains that should have been 5-7yds if hit the hole right. Its like he was a Home Run hitter.... Got the Home Runs (1 Sometimes 2 20yd+ gains/game), but struck out a lot (too many 1 or 2 yd gains). He has to hit more singles (5yders) and doubles (10yders) next year.

So what does that mean.... Pretty simple--- a deal equivalent to Foster (who is a better rushing RB, but not quite Rice's caliber in passing game). Rice's agent is asking too much if the Ravens are offering a similar deal. We can't break the bank and be stupid. Honestly, its about time Cam's offense scheme gets with the times and have our WRs become the focus of the passing game. If that finally happens, a great receiving RB is not as important. I'd rather allocate more dough to the WR position, than breaking the bank to keep Rice.

The fact that our receivers never getting open isnt their fault. Its because cams playbook is shit. No creative routes, no ability for the receivers to get open, he has a controlling mindset that means the players do what he wants them to do.

4 years, +10 different receivers, same results. Only thing consistent has been cam.

[Terpsfan82]

What would you say he did in the playoffs?

In one game he led a pedestrian offensive performance, being the beneficiary of two gift wrapped TD's and in the second game he had a decent game against one of the worse defenses in the league. And lost.

[JAB1985]

I'm not putting up any evidence that good QBs make the playoffs... at least, such was not my intent. Judging by Tebow, it's apparent that bad QBs make the playoffs as well, though perhaps less frequently.

Look--I'm not hating on Flacco. I hope he passes for a zillion yards next year, wins the Super Bowl in a blowout and has the Swedish bikini team fall in love with him. I am not, however, going to be blind to the fact that last year was not as good as it should have been. And if I were the Ravens front office, I'd make damn sure last year was an aberration before I committed a lot of money to him.

you must have had really high expectations for a receiving core that barely had any catches outside of boldin. which i think is the problem with a lot of fans, wanting him to be more in a system that doesnt really allow him to be. I think theres plenty of evidence that already suggests that was an aberration if youd like to call it that. Hes had steady progression in stats and efficiency every year until last year when he lost his top WRs, and even then only really dropped in completion percentage to an unsatisfactory level (which makes sense with a bunch of green receivers). youre saying the team wins not joe, but then saying joes stats werent as good as they should have been when his are dependent upon the team (receivers) performing, which is why i think you are turning a blind eye. 80.3 88.9 93.6 80.9 over 4 years, hes a QB that is in that 90+/- efficiency range with room to get better. his rookie year and last year being the only ones out of that range with reason. hes averaged 62% CP for his career before this year which i think proves the receivers issues this past year. I dont think there is an inclination that the FO isnt happy with his play of last year. They made it a point to call out the real problem, "we need wrs that can catch" because that was the issue. Id even go as far as to say Wrs that run good routes and can get open on 1 on 1 situations goes into that statement as you cant catch if you dont do those as well and that was the real issue with the offense last year. other teams can see that and know what Joe is, if he hit the open market, which yound in their prime QBs with his pedigree rarely if ever do, hell be highly sought after.

hes a top 10 QB in this league when given the talent around him to perform but obviously not elite in a way to make lesser talent perform like greats like brees brady and manning do. Rodgers Eli Roethlisberger Rivers Romo Stafford Ryan and Flacco are probably in that next tier. I cant say any of them have as bad of Receivers as Flacco does (or such an unimaginative OC) and that makes it hard to compare when you have such great WR talent. i cant say i wouldnt put him ahead of a bunch them as is anyway. I dont think fans here realize how good we got it sometimes.

[The Excellector]

Well I think Rice is better than CJ lol, CJ was horrible in 2011. I think Rice is a little better than Foster, because Foster has had the leagues best Oline over the past two seasons. I don't think any RB however deserves anythin near AP or CJ money.

One person that Rice isn't clearly better than is Matt Forte, and he's still waiting for his new contract too.

[The Excellector]

I don't see the offense changing much as long as Cam is still around. No way Flacco can carry the load without a good running game. No. Way.

If you draft Stephen Hill and put him on the opposite side of Torrey Smith, he certainly can. Besides, the Ravens will have a solid rush offense, whether Rice is there or not.