Football Outsiders Scouts the Ravens' OL

**bmorecareful** · 04-11-2012, 11:35 AM

One more thing, let me make it clear that I believe 100% the Ravens need to look for Birk's successor in this draft if they can make it work. I like the idea of a Peter Konz or Philip Blake stepping in when he's ready, and hopefully that guy can be our solution at LG in 2012 before taking over at C in 2013 or beyond. I HOPE Birk can give us another 2 or 3 years, but it's unrealistic to expect that.

I'm not just being a Birk fanboy, I'm just tired of seeing people act like Birk is some huge liability. When you consider the entire 2011 season Birk was better and more consistent at C than McKinnie at LT or Oher at RT. Even if you only get 1 more year out of Birk, you're only going to get 1 more out of McKinnie as well and he's only 2 years younger. Oher has 2 more years, but seems to be regressing and remains very inconsistent. Both OT spots need to be prioritized as much as C, IMO.

**srobert96** · 04-11-2012, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn

Well, first, getting blown up in running plays happens. It happens to Grubbs, it happens to Yanda, it happens to Mack, it happens. Other teams have pro bowl players that are trying too.

I just contend that it doesn't happen anywhere close to what some beleive. When it happens it stands out...the last two games stand out the most to everybody (Especially the Pats game where people didn't pay any attention to where guys were acutally lining up) and really, those games are the ones where most people are basing their opinions off of.

We had an excellent year running the football, yet people want to act like we had one of the worst lines in football. There were complaints about every single player on our line except Yanda, and Grubbs was made out to be something more than he was because our replacements for him were some of the worst linemen in football.

The Ravens were a mediocre running team last year. Stat wise the team was middle of road in ypc and yards per game. The issue is that the Ravens are probably more dedicated to the run than any other team in the league with exception of the Tebow lead Broncos. The Ravens are one of the few teams that still use a fullback and rarely have more than two wrs on the field. If you are going to be that committed to the run the team needs to be more successful running the ball.

**JustaslowZ06** · 04-11-2012, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by srobert96

The Ravens were a mediocre running team last year. Stat wise the team was middle of road in ypc and yards per game. The issue is that the Ravens are probably more dedicated to the run than any other team in the league with exception of the Tebow lead Broncos. The Ravens are one of the few teams that still use a fullback and rarely have more than two wrs on the field. If you are going to be that committed to the run the team needs to be more successful running the ball.

This, however I'm thinking it's more the failure of a coach and the change in scheme than the players.

**sid214** · 04-11-2012, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by JustaslowZ06

This, however I'm thinking it's more the failure of a coach and the change in scheme than the players.

I agree, but I'm hoping with time the running game may improve as players get more used to the scheme.

I believe we do need to find a replacement for birk sometime soon, but for now he is adequate. I don't think he is a massive liability, but we all saw how he struggled towards the end of the season. Despite this, I'd be ok with having him at centre this season, as long as there is adequate depth, since he is still a good centre.

Another thing which I noticed regarding the running: we all know rice is a fantastic back, and I'm a huge fan, but there were times (more than I would have liked), where I saw rice cut back early, stop following vontaes lead, and try to hit a different hole for little gain. This was obvious on the San fran game when we could hear the conversation at the sideline, but this wasn't the only time.

Yes, the oline play needs to improve, but I think more of it is to do with coaching and scheme rather than personnel. And in games where we fail to run well, we should also ask questions of the backs, not just oline.

**Ravenous1** · 04-11-2012, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Shas

It's true. He beat EVERYONE on the Ravens line at times, including Yanda a bunch of times.

Sometimes I have to laugh. To listen to some fans you would think the other team is not trying also lol. Bottom line is Wilfork is a pretty damn good player and thats what good players do ....make plays.

The offensive line is gonna have to be rebuilt via draft we dont and wont have the money to do it any other way. Till those drafted players get up to speed then its gonna have to be shrewd pickups of veterans who can hold the fort while guys develop and get reps. To that end Birk is perfectly acceptable and actually a pretty good choice to hold down center while we groom someone ....

**Ravenous1** · 04-11-2012, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Captain Silver

I think it has way more to do with our lousy line coach Andy Moeller. This guys sucks.

The guy has not shown much in terms of coaching skills and is a assclown imo for drinking and driving. Sorry have a low tolerance for that particular behavior.

**GOTA** · 04-11-2012, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

I agree with everything you said. Birk is not going to be moving NTs around in the run game like Nick Mangold, not now and certainly not in the future. He would definitely be a better player if he had more power, but what can you do? Birk isn't perfect, but he fits our scheme well and gets the job done. I just think he takes way too much inexplicable criticism when in reality, he is an asset to our team, not a liability.

This is an unnecessary ad hominem attack. First of all, the writer of the above article isn't just "some 25 year old," he is a former Stanford OL who spent time with the Chargers, although he never played in an NFL game. Now he's a sports writer for Football Outsiders specializing in offensive line play. Call that what you will, but I place at least some credence in his opinions. Are you really comfortable arguing by inference that your opinions are just plain more informed than his? If so, come right out and say it.

You and I both have no idea how NFL FOs hire people and what relevance (if any) that has to do with the sports media, so I don't see how that line of questioning undermines their credibility at all. You might disagree with their conclusions from watching tape, which is fine, but your conclusions are no more valid than their's just because they belong to you.

First, no, the FO writeup of the Patriots game doesn't come out and say Birk was one of the best centers in the league last year. I'm also citing Pro Football Focus as well as Filmstudy's excellent writeups in support of my opinion on that, as I mentioned earlier in the thread.

You are probably right that Birk is in the declining phase of his career. However, declining from "best in the league" to "top 5-10 in the league" still makes him a great player. Again, there's plenty of evidence that centers can play at a high level late in their careers. You can disagree that guys like Jeff Saturday, Kevin Mawae, and Mike Webster played well past age 35, but you'd be running pretty hard against the grain with that criticism. I think Birk is right up there with Saturday and Mawae in terms of both his overall career performance as well as his relative ability at age 36.

And Birk said this past offseason he felt much better than he did in the 2010 offseason. Take that for what you will (definitely could have had something to do with his desire for a new contract,) but once again the best indicator of a guy's physical ability is his ability to go out there and play for 60 minutes every Sunday, and Birk did that for all but a few seconds last year and missed no time at all in the previous 2 years.

Maybe his ability and durability completely fall off a cliff this year. That wouldn't be unprecedented at all, but I think it's unlikely based on the evidence we have.

What I am arguing is that the media and the Internet are full of experts. That includes many former players and coaches. These sites and experts all love to rank players because it creates buzz.

Just because he writes a blog on PFO doesn't make him any more credible than the guys at ESPN or SI or even Bleacher Report. These are just opinions and should be treated that way instead of being viewed as facts.

**Raveninwoodlawn** · 04-11-2012, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by srobert96

The Ravens were a mediocre running team last year. Stat wise the team was middle of road in ypc and yards per game. The issue is that the Ravens are probably more dedicated to the run than any other team in the league with exception of the Tebow lead Broncos. The Ravens are one of the few teams that still use a fullback and rarely have more than two wrs on the field. If you are going to be that committed to the run the team needs to be more successful running the ball.

Agreed...my bad, excellent was definitely a poor choice of words.

Solid is more like it...

**JustaslowZ06** · 04-11-2012, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by sid214

I agree, but I'm hoping with time the running game may improve as players get more used to the scheme.

I believe we do need to find a replacement for birk sometime soon, but for now he is adequate. I don't think he is a massive liability, but we all saw how he struggled towards the end of the season. Despite this, I'd be ok with having him at centre this season, as long as there is adequate depth, since he is still a good centre.

Another thing which I noticed regarding the running: we all know rice is a fantastic back, and I'm a huge fan, but there were times (more than I would have liked), where I saw rice cut back early, stop following vontaes lead, and try to hit a different hole for little gain. This was obvious on the San fran game when we could hear the conversation at the sideline, but this wasn't the only time.

Yes, the oline play needs to improve, but I think more of it is to do with coaching and scheme rather than personnel. And in games where we fail to run well, we should also ask questions of the backs, not just oline.

Rice does that far too often for my tastes. Personally I think having Leach in there is almost a waste. Now hear me out. Rice is more suited for a singleback set 3 or 4 wide where he gets to pick and choose at will. Sometime it works sometimes it doesn't. But when you have a All-Pro FB and are paying them as such you need someone that will just follow his lead and power through. Hence why I think Allen is going to have a surprisingly VERY good year. Also hence why I'm betting they let Rice get his payday elsewhere and go back to the RB by commitee.

As for the scheme, we've run it the past 2 years. If they're not used to it by now they never will. You need smaller fast athletic lineman to run that scheme, and you run it because you don't have the bruisers. With the exception of Birk and McKinnie we had bruisers. Even McKinnie would've done better in our old scheme. They wanted to run this cutesy system prob because it allows your RB more freedom to get into space and thats what RR does best, unfortunatly you need the personnel for it. Can't fit a square peg into a round hole.

**JustaslowZ06** · 04-11-2012, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenous1

Sometimes I have to laugh. To listen to some fans you would think the other team is not trying also lol. Bottom line is Wilfork is a pretty damn good player and thats what good players do ....make plays.

The offensive line is gonna have to be rebuilt via draft we dont and wont have the money to do it any other way. Till those drafted players get up to speed then its gonna have to be shrewd pickups of veterans who can hold the fort while guys develop and get reps. To that end Birk is perfectly acceptable and actually a pretty good choice to hold down center while we groom someone ....

I'm hoping for Brewster.

**Terpsfan82** · 04-11-2012, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by JustaslowZ06

Rice does that far too often for my tastes. Personally I think having Leach in there is almost a waste. Now hear me out. Rice is more suited for a singleback set 3 or 4 wide where he gets to pick and choose at will. Sometime it works sometimes it doesn't. But when you have a All-Pro FB and are paying them as such you need someone that will just follow his lead and power through. Hence why I think Allen is going to have a surprisingly VERY good year. Also hence why I'm betting they let Rice get his payday elsewhere and go back to the RB by commitee.

As for the scheme, we've run it the past 2 years. If they're not used to it by now they never will. You need smaller fast athletic lineman to run that scheme, and you run it because you don't have the bruisers. With the exception of Birk and McKinnie we had bruisers. Even McKinnie would've done better in our old scheme. They wanted to run this cutesy system prob because it allows your RB more freedom to get into space and thats what RR does best, unfortunatly you need the personnel for it. Can't fit a square peg into a round hole.

It's funny how you never hear about this type of dysfunction occurring on the defensive side of the ball. Coaches are competent, scheme matches personnel and vice versa, and they have a clearly defined identity.

**JustaslowZ06** · 04-11-2012, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Terpsfan82

It's funny how you never hear about this type of dysfunction occurring on the defensive side of the ball. Coaches are competent, scheme matches personnel and vice versa, and they have a clearly defined identity.

I really cannot fathom why Moeller is there. He HAS to have secret sex tapes on Harbaugh or something. Maybe ol John has a foot fetish also, I dunno. But than again Hostler needs to go also. Hmmm he's our WR's coach who had record drops, and he came from SF a their QB's coach where Alex Smith ground to a halt and only recently developed and showed what he can do. Seems to be a pattern here. They both need new jobs away from the Ravens. I'll take someone new vs the same ol with failed pedigree's.

Edit: As for the defensive side of the ball I think it's FULLY to do with Ray. they're prob scared of him. like really you're gonna walk in and tell him you're going to change things up? really? I sure as f wouldn't.

**Terpsfan82** · 04-11-2012, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by JustaslowZ06

I really cannot fathom why Moeller is there. He HAS to have secret sex tapes on Harbaugh or something. Maybe ol John has a foot fetish also, I dunno. But than again Hostler needs to go also. Hmmm he's our WR's coach who had record drops, and he came from SF a their QB's coach where Alex Smith ground to a halt and only recently developed and showed what he can do. Seems to be a pattern here. They both need new jobs away from the Ravens. I'll take someone new vs the same ol with failed pedigree's.

Edit: As for the defensive side of the ball I think it's FULLY to do with Ray. they're prob scared of him. like really you're gonna walk in and tell him you're going to change things up? really? I sure as f wouldn't.

I don't understand it either. Maybe it's harder to coach offense or something, I don't know.

**The Excellector** · 04-11-2012, 02:54 PM

First off, Football Outsiders sucks. How about that?

Now, since that is out of the way.............

Matt Birk had a solid 2011 season that tailed off at the end, which may show that he'll struggle to handle a full season.

The offensive line played much better, down the stretch, during the regular season, when all five starters were in, even though Grubbs and Yanda were both dealing with injuries.

However, everybody on the line got their *ss kicked in the playoffs.

So, I am with RaveninWoodlawn, in that Birk was not as much the sole reason for the poor play, that it was more of the entire line. Although, I do give a little more credit to Grubbs than he might, while still maintaining that even Grubbs got his *ss kicked in the playoffs.

**ActualSpamBot** · 04-11-2012, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Terpsfan82

It's funny how you never hear about this type of dysfunction occurring on the defensive side of the ball. Coaches are competent, scheme matches personnel and vice versa, and they have a clearly defined identity.

I thought the whole Mattison controversy was that while he was adequate, he didn't use the team's talent effectively. I seem to recall a lot of complaining along those lines a few years ago.

**Terpsfan82** · 04-11-2012, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot

I thought the whole Mattison controversy was that while he was adequate, he didn't use the team's talent effectively. I seem to recall a lot of complaining along those lines a few years ago.

I remember that too. But that was an aberration. Since Marvin Lewis, the Ravens have had competent coaches on defensive side of the ball that goes back 12 seasons. Meanwhile we are still searching for the first offensive coordinator worth anything.

**The Excellector** · 04-11-2012, 03:42 PM

There was that situation where Ray Lewis was upset, because the offensive linemen were getting to him too much. That led to the drafting of Haloti Ngata.

**Raveninwoodlawn** · 04-11-2012, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Terpsfan82

I remember that too. But that was an aberration. Since Marvin Lewis, the Ravens have had competent coaches on defensive side of the ball that goes back 12 seasons. Meanwhile we are still searching for the first offensive coordinator worth anything.

Eh...I think they all have been competent, but only 2 were without complaints for the most part...Marvin (although a lot of fans bitched about his lack of blitzing) and Rex. In those 12 years half were run by Mike Nolan and Greg Mattison...both of whom had rather tame reputations here compared to the other 3.

**Terpsfan82** · 04-11-2012, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by The Excellector

There was that situation where Ray Lewis was upset, because the offensive linemen were getting to him too much. That led to the drafting of Haloti Ngata.

Anecdotal evidence is not the same as a repeated pattern of ineptitude. They still finished that year ranked around 10th in total defense despite all of the injuries that year.

**Boulderraven** · 04-11-2012, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by JustaslowZ06

Rice does that far too often for my tastes. Personally I think having Leach in there is almost a waste. Now hear me out. Rice is more suited for a singleback set 3 or 4 wide where he gets to pick and choose at will. Sometime it works sometimes it doesn't. But when you have a All-Pro FB and are paying them as such you need someone that will just follow his lead and power through. Hence why I think Allen is going to have a surprisingly VERY good year. Also hence why I'm betting they let Rice get his payday elsewhere and go back to the RB by commitee.

As for the scheme, we've run it the past 2 years. If they're not used to it by now they never will. You need smaller fast athletic lineman to run that scheme, and you run it because you don't have the bruisers. With the exception of Birk and

McKinnie we had bruisers. Even McKinnie would've done
better in our old scheme. They wanted to run this cutesy
system prob because it allows your RB more freedom to get
into space and thats what RR does best, unfortunatly you
need the personnel for it. Can't fit a square peg into a round
hole.

I agree. Not wanting to change topic of thread, but Rice very
Often did not use his blocks, Leach's blocks in particular, and cut back to soon. It's habit and Feild vision. Not sure he is trying to hit a HR all the time, but left alot of 5-10 yard gains get away as 1-2 yard cutbacks. He won't be missed as most think, they will add a back in this draft, the next or in FA.