How Courtney Upshaw compares to Lamar Woodley

**sopranocorleone** · 04-29-2012, 01:45 PM

Naturally the weigh-ins also brought up questions about tweener players like Alabama's Courtney Upshaw and South Carolina's Melvin Ingram. Both came in at under 6-foot-2 and more than 270 pounds with short arms. In the 2007 draft, the same thing happened to LaMarr Woodley and he dropped to the second round. But tape doesn't lie. Woodley proved it was unwise to pass on him and he's developed into one of the best 3-4 linebackers in the NFL. The same could happen to Upshaw and Ingram.

This is from SB Nation. Not that I think Upshaw will definitely turn into Woodley, but the comparison is apt given that both players were/are knocked for having shorter arms.

Woodley is at his best when he gets underneath the pads of the opposing OTs and he can drive them backward. He's got incredible lower body strength and heavy hands.

Like Woodley, I think Upshaw will benefit from playing against RTs with shorter arms and wingspan. He'll have to work on his pass-rush moves, but he already shows the heavy hands to disengage. Plus, he's got the versatility to rush up the middle from a three-point stance -- Saban deployed him from that position a few times.

**seraph** · 04-29-2012, 01:54 PM

They don't compare at all. Woodley has a 39" vertical and a 9.09" broad jump. He's a freak compared to Upshaw. People for some reason ignored Woodley's explosiveness.

I can't imagine Upshaw beating everyone with a bull rush.

**bmorecareful** · 04-29-2012, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by seraph

They don't compare at all. Woodley has a 39" vertical and a 9.09" broad jump. He's a freak compared to Upshaw. People for some reason ignored Woodley's explosiveness.

I can't imagine Upshaw beating everyone with a bull rush.

There is more to player comparisons than their ability to jump in shorts. Woodley was not an elite-speed player in college, and you could see that on tape. They have similar body types and both approach pass rushing the same way--they are more power/inside move guys rather than burst around the edge guys.

Upshaw slaughtered a lot of SEC OTs who will be starting in the NFL when their time comes. The tape doesn't lie. I see the Woodley comparison, although no one would project Upshaw to be as good at this point in time.

**seraph** · 04-29-2012, 02:13 PM

Explosion drills measure how much power and quickness you can generate in short bursts or 3 point stance. Look at the dominant pass rushers in the NFL. All of them had a good combination of vertical jump, broad jump, 3 cone, and short shuttle numbers. One guy who seems to be an exception who I hope Upshaw will turn out to be is Tamba Hali.

**ActualSpamBot** · 04-29-2012, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by seraph

They don't compare at all.

Hmm...

Woodley's Pro Day:

Height 6.2 Weight 266
40 yard dash- 4.74 (Low of 4.68, High of 4.84)
20 yard split- 2.72
10 yard split- 1.65
20 yard shuttle- 4.42
Broad- 9 ft 9 inches

Upshaw Pro Day:

Height 6.2 Weight 272
40 yard dash- 4.76 (Low of 4.65, High of 4.84)
20 yard split- 2.72
10 yard split- 1.67
20 yard shuttle- 4.60
Broad- 9 Feet 1 inch

Seem pretty damn comparable to me.

**leachisabeast** · 04-29-2012, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by seraph

They don't compare at all. Woodley has a 39" vertical and a 9.09" broad jump. He's a freak compared to Upshaw. People for some reason ignored Woodley's explosiveness.

I can't imagine Upshaw beating everyone with a bull rush.

Seriously all I hear from you is complete negative bull shit lol. Is there anything good you have to say about Upshaw? I couldn't care less how high a LB can jump. Suggs didn't exactly have the best of combines, and look where he is today.

**sopranocorleone** · 04-29-2012, 02:33 PM

You're right, explosion wise there isn't a comparison. Woodley has a great get-off. But a lot of Woodley's game is predicated on his bull rush and ability to just overpower opposing OTs. I definitely see a lot of that in Upshaw's game. When Upshaw gets his hands on an OT, he'll be able to move them out of the way despite his shorter stature.

Hopefully given the depth at OLB, the Ravens can keep Upshaw in spots where he can flourish until he refines his overall game. Right now, he's definitely more of a hybrid than he is a true OLB.

**bmorecareful** · 04-29-2012, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by seraph

Explosion drills measure how much power and quickness you can generate in short bursts or 3 point stance. Look at the dominant pass rushers in the NFL. All of them had a good combination of vertical jump, broad jump, 3 cone, and short shuttle numbers. One guy who seems to be an exception who I hope Upshaw will turn out to be is Tamba Hali.

And that's another guy Upshaw compares similarly to in body type and play-style. Look, I'm very familiar with Football Outsider's SackSEER metrics and other similar measurements and projections of pass-rush productivity. I know FO was very skeptical of Upshaw in their recent article. I'm not as concerned about it, considering in 2010 that same system projected Jason Pierre-Paul to be the worst pass rusher in his draft class. I think SackSEER has huge flaws, and that's born out by the fact that it just hasn't been a reliable predictive tool for FO as of yet. They've been wrong for the most part with all of their SackSEER projections thus far.

I don't disagree that those 3 metrics can be good indices of short-area explosion, but the bottom line is that Upshaw is more of a technique/power player and there are no metrics that can capture what he does well apart from watching the tape.

**seraph** · 04-29-2012, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Seriously all I hear from you is complete negative bull shit lol. Is there anything good you have to say about Upshaw? I couldn't care less how high a LB can jump. Suggs didn't exactly have the best of combines, and look where he is today.

I like Upshaw I just don't have huge expectations from him as a pass rusher.

Suggs isn't explosive but his production showed he can get to the qb and he has above average explosion.

**seraph** · 04-29-2012, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

And that's another guy Upshaw compares similarly to in body type and play-style. Look, I'm very familiar with Football Outsider's SackSEER metrics and other similar measurements and projections of pass-rush productivity. I know FO was very skeptical of Upshaw in their recent article. I'm not as concerned about it, considering in 2010 that same system projected Jason Pierre-Paul to be the worst pass rusher in his draft class. I think SackSEER has huge flaws, and that's born out by the fact that it just hasn't been a reliable predictive tool for FO as of yet. They've been wrong for the most part with all of their SackSEER projections thus far.

I don't disagree that those 3 metrics can be good indices of short-area explosion, but the bottom line is that Upshaw is more of a technique/power player and there are no metrics that can capture what he does well apart from watching the tape.

Yeah SackSEER isn't perfect it wasn't favorable to a guy like Aldon Smith last year although the jury is still out on him.

JPP was guy who kind of change my view about how edge rushers project into the league.

**leachisabeast** · 04-29-2012, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by seraph

I like Upshaw I just don't have huge expectations from him as a pass rusher.

Suggs isn't explosive but his production showed he can get to the qb and he has above average explosion.

Your argument isn't making sense to me. You are saying that you need explosion to get to the QB, yet you didn't come up with a solid reason why that didn't stop Suggs becoming one of the best pass rushers in the game. Upshaw had similar results at the combine to Suggs, and plays very similar to Woodley, I think he's an 8-10 sack a year type player. However he will offer a lot more defending the run and setting the edge than perhaps any other prospect in this draft will.

**seraph** · 04-29-2012, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Your argument isn't making sense to me. You are saying that you need explosion to get to the QB, yet you didn't come up with a solid reason why that didn't stop Suggs becoming one of the best pass rushers in the game. Upshaw had similar results at the combine to Suggs, and plays very similar to Woodley, I think he's an 8-10 sack a year type player. However he will offer a lot more defending the run and setting the edge than perhaps any other prospect in this draft will.

I already said that Suggs had above average explosion. His game is leverage and he's good at getting off the snap quickly. Ignore Suggs' 40 time. Ignore Woodley's short arms.

Upshaw might become a decent pass rusher it's probably going to take some time for that to happen.

**ActualSpamBot** · 04-29-2012, 02:56 PM

Note he called Woodley a freak compared to Upshaw but when I showed that athletically they had nearly identical numbers at their pro days he just ignores it.

**seraph** · 04-29-2012, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot

Note he called Woodley a freak compared to Upshaw but when I showed that athletically they had nearly identical numbers at their pro days he just ignores it.

lol you ignored Woodley's vertical jump and Upshaw's 27" vertical. Woodley's broad jump is longer.

Also what good is it to compare 10 yard splits for edge rushers?

**bmorecareful** · 04-29-2012, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by seraph

I already said that Suggs had above average explosion. His game is leverage and he's good at getting off the snap quickly. Ignore Suggs' 40 time. Ignore Woodley's short arms.

Upshaw might become a decent pass rusher it's probably going to take some time for that to happen.

I mean, I guess the concern here is that you feel comfortable ignoring those prospects' drawbacks, but not Upshaw's. Why?

Upshaw is already a decent pass rusher. Last year he had sacks against a lot of good OT prospects--Bobby Massie, Brandon Mosley, Xavier Nixon, several others. He doesn't need to "become" anything, outside of the fact that every college player entering the NFL has to become something a bit different.

I get the feeling that you probably haven't watched Upshaw actually play. He's a damn good football player. I doubt he'll have 15 sacks next year, but he'll contribute a fair share of sacks, pressures, and QB hits, all told.

**ActualSpamBot** · 04-29-2012, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by seraph

lol you ignored Woodley's vertical jump and Upshaw's 27" vertical. Woodley's broad jump is longer.

Also what good is it to compare 10 yard splits for edge rushers?

10 yard splits are the most useful comparison actually. I don't expect Courtney to run a lot of 40 yard sacks but 10 yards? Yea, I can see how being able to close 10 yards as fast as a guy like Woodley will be useful. A hell of a lot more useful than his ability to jump straight in the air.

And yes, Woodley has a longer broadjump. A whopping 7% longer.

You clearly just want to have something to bitch about, when you tried to imply that the Texans draft better than we do I should have recognized it. Have fun being miserable, I'm gonna go be excited about the really good players we picked up.

**ActualSpamBot** · 04-29-2012, 03:32 PM

To compare Upshaw to another very successful rusher.

Upshaw:

Height 6.2 Weight 272
40 yard dash- 4.76 (Low of 4.65, High of 4.84)
20 yard split- 2.72
10 yard split- 1.67
20 yard shuttle- 4.60
Broad- 9 Feet 1 inch

Aldon Smith: (14 sacks last season)

Height 6.4 Weight 265
40 yard dash- 4.74 (Low of 4.67, High of 4.86)
20 yard split- 2.70
10 yard split- 1.66
20 yard shuttle- 4.50
Broad- 9 Feet 10 inches

Another guy who excelled at the NFL level, Smith and Upshaw had similar college numbers (80 tackles, 23 for loss 17 sacks in two seasons as a starter for Smith vs. 104 tackles, 32.5 for loss, 16.5 sacks in his final 2 seasons as a starter.)

Am I suggesting Upshaw will have 14 sacks for us? No, but the physical talent and precedent from a similar player is there. And Smith didn't have anywhere near the level of help Upshaw will have in Suggs drawing player attention.

**seraph** · 04-29-2012, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot

10 yard splits are the most useful comparison actually. I don't expect Courtney to run a lot of 40 yard sacks but 10 yards? Yea, I can see how being able to close 10 yards as fast as a guy like Woodley will be useful. A hell of a lot more useful than his ability to jump straight in the air.

And yes, Woodley has a longer broadjump. A whopping 7% longer.

You clearly just want to have something to bitch about, when you tried to imply that the Texans draft better than we do I should have recognized it. Have fun being miserable, I'm gonna go be excited about the really good players we picked up.

Do 10 yard splits tell you anything about anticipation off the snap? QBs aren't going to let the defense know when the play starts. Vertical Jump has nothing to do with jumping in the air. It's supposed to measure quick twitch movement.

Also I'm the most positive Ravens fan.

**srobert96** · 04-29-2012, 03:39 PM

The only thing I know for sure is that Upshaw is more explosive and a better pass rusher than the guy he is replacing. Upshaw is physically superior to JJ. The Ravens typically do not not expect the OLB opposite to Suggs to be as good as a pass rusher. They expect him to set the edge, drop in coverage and occasionally get after the QB. By all accounts Upshaw should be an upgrade over JJ. They have Kruger as a situational pass rusher. This will keep both players fresh. The Ravens also expect more of a pass rush out of their DE position than say the Steelers. The Steelers 3 down lineman have always been more about occupying blockers while using Woodley and Harrison to get pressure. The Ravens have always looked for more pressure out of the Redding/Mchpee spot and occasional rush out of Ngata.

JJ
40 - 5.07
20 yd dash -2.96
10 yd dash - 1.69
Vert - 28.5
Broad - 8'11 inches
Shuttle - 4.58
3 cone - 7.72

**ActualSpamBot** · 04-29-2012, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by seraph

Do 10 yard splits tell you anything about anticipation off the snap? QBs aren't going to let the defense know when the play starts.

Anticipation? You mean like the ability to get into the backfield and disrupt the play? Boy... I bet they have some way of keeping track of that. Oh I know, how about a guy who has around 100 tackles, and nearly 50 of them take place behind the line of scrimmage (32 tackles for loss and 17.5 sacks against SEC offensive lines.)