Round 4 - Reaches?

[alien bird]

I keep seeing reference to this but I haven't seen anyone back it up. All I saw was a tweet that said 'some good teams' liked him. Is there anything more?

49ers interest:

General manager Trent Baalke got visibly upset in the 49ers' war room when the Ravens drafted Delaware guard Gino Gradkowski with the 98th overall pick. It could be that Baalke and Jim Harbaugh were targeting him with the 97th pick, and thought he would still be around for the 103rd pick, which they traded down to with the Dolphins. http://www.csnbayarea.com/football-s...75&feedID=2800

ESPN postdraft blog:

BEST VALUE: C-G Gino Gradkowski, Delaware. He received a third-round grade by some teams and slipped into the early part of the fourth round. http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth

[Ravenswintitle]

49ers interest:

General manager Trent Baalke got visibly upset in the 49ers' war room when the Ravens drafted Delaware guard Gino Gradkowski with the 98th overall pick. It could be that Baalke and Jim Harbaugh were targeting him with the 97th pick, and thought he would still be around for the 103rd pick, which they traded down to with the Dolphins. http://www.csnbayarea.com/football-s...75&feedID=2800

ESPN postdraft blog:

BEST VALUE: C-G Gino Gradkowski, Delaware. He received a third-round grade by some teams and slipped into the early part of the fourth round. http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth

That's good info but I don't see any relation to claiming that TN, Pitt, and Indy had him rated as their top center. I'm happy with the pick just think there are some claims out there that I haven't seen substantiated.

[Shas]

Florio said it best.

"Reaches" is a media term, used by people who can't wrap their head around the fact their mock draft board got blowed the eff up.

to the

They interviewed DeCosta on the Fan this morning and he basically confirmed the notion that their board was getting blown up. He said that the players they liked were all getting picked and everyone ahead of them seemed to share the same needs as they did.

He later coupled that idea to his answer to another question about taking players from smaller schools. He said that they had asked their scouts to dig deeper on small school guys (ie, Delaware, S. Carolina State, Cal Poly) because the league as a whole is getting better at scouting, making it harder to target "gems", and therefore forcing them to go to new extremes to find players. He used the metaphor of the main talent pool drying up this year, so they were forced to go to the shallower waters to find players.

He also noted that the players they have had success with from small schools often were recruited by bigger schools and transferred for one reason or another to a smaller school -- notably Flacco (Pitt) and Webb (So. Miss). This is the case with a couple of the small school guys they selected this year: Gradkowski (UWV) and Thompson (Auburn).

DeCosta admitted that they didn't know where to grade Gradkowski -- they thought somewhere in the fourth or fifth round. But they felt nervous about losing him, and when other players they liked came off the board, they went ahead and used the pick on a player they liked. So from that sense, maybe you can call it a reach.

Look, once a player has been in the league for a couple years no one ever brings up the concept of whether he should have gone ten or fifteen picks lower in the draft. If Gradkowski becomes a fourth rounder who goes on to start for the team for a number of years, like Jarrett Johnson, no one will ever look back and say, "yeah, but they could have waited until the fifth round back in 2012 to take him."

And if he becomes a small-school, fourth-round offensive lineman who never amounts to anything, like David Hale, then no one will ever come back and say he was a reach--"they should have drafted him in the fifth or sixth round." No, he'll just be another fourth round player they missed on.

That's why Florio is right that the idea of "reach" is a little overused.

That said, if the team could have traded back and nabbed him fifteen picks later, and gotten an extra sixth rounder for their troubles (or if they could have stayed at the end of the third round to get Pierce, and kept that fifth round selection) then from that perspective they "overspent" on the picks. I think that is a more applicable term than "reach."

[bt12483]

Ok, this was a weird draft for me...I didn't do a ton of research before hand and I wasn't around for...ANY of the draft really (just got the family back from Disney last week).

Let me start by saying I liked our draft as a Solid, Not Spectacular one. Upshaw was the only "exciting" pick. Everything else was just good value to plug holes. Most sites seem to say KO should be able to start at OG and Pierce was a good RB choice. Streeter was a good sleeper pick, our 7th round DT was kind've a throwaway as most 7th rounders are, and the Cal Poly CB should be a good returner...

But Thompson and Gradkowski, our Round 4 picks, are being labeled among the big reaches by DraftCountdown.com. I knew Gradkowski was a bit of a reach...heck, GRADKOWSKI HIMSELF was taken back by the early pick, he wasn't even paying attention to the draft yet (http://www.delawareonline.com/articl...ext%7CHome%7Cs). Didn't think Thompson was a big reach, but he was taken before Iloka, who was widely considered the 2nd best FS in the draft.

So, what do people think of these two? I've seen good scouting reports on both which say that Gradkowski just needs seasoning at C but could be a starter in time, while Thompson is listed as a good rangy ST who could become a serviceable starter in time. But I've also seen that Gradkowski was graded as a 6th or 7th rounder, while Thompson was graded around 6th round.

Do you think we reached for these two need picks?

From rotoworld:

According to CSN Bay Area's Matt Maiocco, 49ers GM Trent Baalke had a "noticeable reaction" in the draft room when the Ravens grabbed G/C Gino Gradkowski early in the fourth round after San Francisco had traded back.
Clearly targeting Gradkowski himself, Baalke traded back again to select Joe Looney after the Ravens snagged Bruce's brother. Labeling Gradkowski "athletic and nasty," former Ravens and Eagles scout Daniel Jeremiah predicts the fourth-rounder will be the eventual starting center in Baltimore.

Seems like the 49ers didn't think Gradkowski in the 4th was too bad.

OOPS: didn't see above post saying the same thing.

[Rxdoxx]

On Iloka from http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1621494

He is an explosive athlete, but lacks quick change-of-direction that would make him special.
{and}
Weaknesses: Has a lean, narrow frame and needs to get stronger -- doesn't have the body type to get too much bigger with limited growth potential. Has tense ankles and hips with choppy footwork when attempting to redirect and doesn't always look natural changing directions. Tends to play leggy and needs to tighten his angles in pursuit. Will slide off tackle attempts at times and needs to show better tackling technique to consistently finish. Wasn't overly productive and never led the team in tackles, putting together an average senior season with 1 pass break-up and zero interceptions in 2011. Has questionable on-field attitude and needs to play more disciplined and calm -- taken out of games in the past by coaching staff for minor scuffles and poor sportsmanship (has also gotten into a few shouting matches with head coach Chris Peterson after being removed from the game).

Ravens had Thompson rated higher, may not even had Iloka in their 150. Bengals took him at 167? should tell us something that it was the Bengals that took him 37 picks later.

[RavingMad]

Bottom line is the draft didn't go the way the brass wanted and more unsettling to me....expected. They felt forced to draft players earlier than planned. IMO (via presser and audio) they were surprised by the flow of the draft. Streeter is such a project, it's insulting to the word "project". A hole/need that THEY said needed to be addressed is still there.

[LukeDaniel]

I'll admit that I wasn't happy when both Gradkowski and Thompson was first drafted.

Looking back on it now, I'm a lot more okay with both picks, and I think I actually like the Gradkowski pick. You have a guy who can start this year if Birk can't stay healthy and also seems capable of starting at OG if we needed him to replace Yanda or KO. My initial irritation with taking him was because guys like Nick Toon and the like were still on the board and I really wanted one of those WRs. Now that the dust has settled, having GG in camp definitely makes us stronger on a short-term basis than a rookie WR (often hit or miss).

I'm still not sold on the Christian Thompson pick, but the Ravens have done an incredibly good job of drafting Safeties the last decade, so I'm willing to trust their judgement.

[wickedsolo]

I'll admit that I wasn't happy when both Gradkowski and Thompson was first drafted.

Looking back on it now, I'm a lot more okay with both picks, and I think I actually like the Gradkowski pick. You have a guy who can start this year if Birk can't stay healthy and also seems capable of starting at OG if we needed him to replace Yanda or KO. My initial irritation with taking him was because guys like Nick Toon and the like were still on the board and I really wanted one of those WRs. Now that the dust has settled, having GG in camp definitely makes us stronger on a short-term basis than a rookie WR (often hit or miss).

I'm still not sold on the Christian Thompson pick, but the Ravens have done an incredibly good job of drafting Safeties the last decade, so I'm willing to trust their judgement.

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying.

The Ravens brass did come out and say prior to the draft that this wasn't going to be a sexy draft and a lot of their picks were going to be about depth and the future. So...take that for what it's worth. They certainly weren't lying.

[leachisabeast]

Word has it that the 49ers where targeting Gradkowski, and where disappointed when the Ravens took him, accord to Matt Maiocco of CSN Bay Area.

Sorry someone already posted it.

[The Excellector]

I keep seeing reference to this but I haven't seen anyone back it up. All I saw was a tweet that said 'some good teams' liked him. Is there anything more?

I back it up.

[Beau Petard]

Scally-
First, IMO the term "reach" has to be defined or else the whole conversation deals with a fan's emotional response to whether he or she "liked" the pick or not v. any kind of analytical assessment. There's another thread (How'd we do, or something similar) where a many-page discussion wages on over whether or not the Ravens administration were "panicked" or not during the draft. The term creates an emotion that is tough to quantify, so the debate becomes almost moot.

Second, IMHO, while I really respect and enjoy reading the opinions of others on how these guys will turn out, their being a reach can't be certain for a bunch more months.

[BcRaven]

"Reach" is a relative team, depending on the person viewing the draft pick. Just as "steal" is on the opposite side of the coin. "How could we reach for that guy in the 2nd round, but at least we got a steal in the 5th." Keep in mind that none of these picks has played a single down in the NFL yet. It's really all for amusement value, just like mock drafts are... Bc

[Trackmaster]

It's a bit absurd for arm-chair GM's to be "grading" a draft and declaring winners and losers before players even play one snap. Sure, do it in a year or two, but if the bloggers and commentators knew more than the GM's, they would be employed by the team, and not talking about what other people are doing. You draft who you think can help your team, not who's rated highest by some arbitrary people.

[srobert96]

It is hard to say if a pick is a reach or not. People assume that a pick is a reach because the team could have waited to draft the same player. But what we will never know is if another team would have scooped up that player shortly thereafter. Reach is a media term based on their projections. The media does not have scouts that attend Delaware games so they are not going to have an interior Oline guy slated to go high. Nor are they going to have a safety from a small school slated to go high either.

The only think that really matters is how these guys turn out. Really need Osmele, Gradkowski and Upshaw to become starters this year or next.