OBY rallies Christian right/Mitt says thanks

**darb72** · 05-14-2012, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne

This is one of the types of thinking that infuriates me. The old "hate the sin not the sinner" b.s. Or being gay is a sin but i sin all the time too so we are cool with it. Really? See the difference is for the gay teenager of fundamentalist parents that they are always gay and will always be gay so therefore they dont get the reprieve you get when you "sin". They must then always live in sin because any thought of love or passion about people is a sin. This is completely different than anything you experience.

There are few things as heartbreaking in the world of an adolescent therapist than a suicidal teenager. Teenagers who think they are evil and sinners because they are gay. They cant come out because their bible-obsessed parents have been talking about gay people like there is something inherently wrong with them forever and the kids realize they are gay. There is no way out for them so they end up depressed and suicidal. Their parents drag them into the therapists office to "fix" them when they are fine. The parents need fixing...always an interesting comment.

You bible folk should think this through before making such comments. You never know what impressionable and vulnerable kid is listening.

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Thief, we're all sinners. If we're all the same, then there's no way I get to bash someone's choice. God loves each and everyone of us regardless. Not my place to argue with him.

Do try and keep up, won't you?

**pyite32** · 05-14-2012, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by AirFlacco

[B]No, just the Pittsburgh Steelers and Bellicheat. As a trained killer

Nice job of hijacking the thread like you've done in the other forum.
It's about Mitt getting the Christian vote because of OBYs announcement
not about biblical contradictions.

Actually this thread is about two things, your hatred for Obama. Since you post any story about him that isn't positive no matter what. And you and the christian right's (for lack of a better term) blatant bigotry.

You still are avoiding the one question I have asked over and over again. Why is it Okay for you to judge and try to control what other people do when the bible preaches against that practice?

Nice little personal dig too with the hijacking comment, I guess you have a link for that too? Or are you just talking out of your ass. (intentional lack of question mark because it doesn't need to be answered)

**AirFlacco** · 05-14-2012, 06:56 AM

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Galen posted a story every day about Palin and Bush before you came around.

**Galen Sevinne** · 05-14-2012, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by darb72

Thief, we're all sinners. If we're all the same, then there's no way I get to bash someone's choice. God loves each and everyone of us regardless. Not my place to argue with him.

Do try and keep up, won't you?

Being gay isn't a choice. Maybe you need to keep up with 21st century thought.

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**wickedsolo** · 05-14-2012, 07:37 AM

Religion has no place in politics or public policy.

**Sirdowski** · 05-14-2012, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne

Being gay isn't a choice. Maybe you need to keep up with 21st century thought.

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The 21st century thought that you speak of is nothing more than uninformed induction as fact. Science has proven nothing to support such claims. You'll recognize I said they haven't proven anything, not that they haven't theorized. Too often people seem to misunderstand that reality, but conform it to justify what you've already accepted as fact regardless of truth. Yea, I've heard of the gay gene; It is flimsy at best.

**wickedsolo** · 05-14-2012, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Sirdowski

The 21st century thought that you speak of is nothing more than uninformed induction as fact. Science has proven nothing to support such claims. You'll recognize I said they haven't proven anything, not that they haven't theorized. Too often people seem to misunderstand that reality, but conform it to justify what you've already accepted as fact regardless of truth. Yea, I've heard of the gay gene; It is flimsy at best.

I don't necessarily believe in a "gay gene", but to say that there is no physiological or psychological difference in a straight man vs a gay man is incorrect IMO. Obviously, there is very little scientific evidence to back that up, but when I look at man I don't see someone that I want to be intimate with. It doesn't "get me going" so-to-speak whereas with a gay man he can obviously look at a man and have those different feelings. I.e. at some point his chemical make up has to be different than mine.

It's not just as simple as saying "it's a choice" and then claiming it's the wrong one (not that you are, but those who say it's a choice usually follow it up with it being the wrong choice).

**Galen Sevinne** · 05-14-2012, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

I don't necessarily believe in a "gay gene", but to say that there is no physiological or psychological difference in a straight man vs a gay man is incorrect IMO. Obviously, there is very little scientific evidence to back that up, but when I look at man I don't see someone that I want to be intimate with. It doesn't "get me going" so-to-speak whereas with a gay man he can obviously look at a man and have those different feelings. I.e. at some point his chemical make up has to be different than mine.

It's not just as simple as saying "it's a choice" and then claiming it's the wrong one (not that you are, but those who say it's a choice usually follow it up with it being the wrong choice).

To sirdowski science can't prove that I am actually typing this right now. Just the notion that I want to think I am typing it, disqualifies all intellectual thought from that point moving forward. In the end we should just all fall to our knees, mouths agape, and pray for forgiveness for being such imbeciles.

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**Sirdowski** · 05-14-2012, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne

To sirdowski science can't prove that I am actually typing this right now. Just the notion that I want to think I am typing it, disqualifies all intellectual thought from that point moving forward. In the end we should just all fall to our knees, mouths agape, and pray for forgiveness for being such imbeciles.

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With every response, the death of a strawman. Biz' as usual. You make an illegitimate claim of truth, I legitimately refute that, you respond by degrading my position or painting an extreme picture of it. I think it should be glaringly obvious at this point to any on lookers that this isn't some concomitant phenomena; It's your MO.

**Sirdowski** · 05-14-2012, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

I don't necessarily believe in a "gay gene", but to say that there is no physiological or psychological difference in a straight man vs a gay man is incorrect IMO.

That's the problem, opinion has nothing to do with it. Physiological difference no, psychological difference, yes. However, and I think our good doctor would agree, psychological disorders aren't necessarily inherent from birth.

Obviously, there is very little scientific evidence to back that up, but when I look at man I don't see someone that I want to be intimate with. It doesn't "get me going" so-to-speak whereas with a gay man he can obviously look at a man and have those different feelings. I.e. at some point his chemical make up has to be different than mine.

So what happens to that uncontrollable chemical process when a gay man changes his way and marrys a woman? Did it simply not exist? I don't think so either. It's a psychological complication that can be overcome.

It's not just as simple as saying "it's a choice" and then claiming it's the wrong one (not that you are, but those who say it's a choice usually follow it up with it being the wrong choice).

I agree to an extent. My position of "It's a choice" is that they have a choice on whether or not to pursue heterosexuality. Not that they(most, as some, such as bisexuals, just want to experiment or intermingle, constituting a decision) made a decision to be gay. It's not a choice insofar that they (most) have a decision point in their life where they say, I want to be gay. We all have our demons so to speak, and as with all demons, they can be overcome.

**wickedsolo** · 05-14-2012, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by Sirdowski

That's the problem, opinion has nothing to do with it. Physiological difference no, psychological difference, yes. However, and I think our good doctor would agree, psychological disorders aren't necessarily inherent from birth.

Some psychological disorders are not inherent from birth, but that doesn't mean that they aren't present. Modern medicine/science just has no way of discerning the disorders (not that homosexuality is a disorder). For example, schizophrenia is a psychological disorder that most effects males and females, but doesn't normally come to fruition until early adulthood (ages 17-24 or so). Just because something doesn't manifest during infancy or birth doesn't mean that it's not there.

Schizophrenia rarely occurs in children, but awareness of childhood-onset schizophrenia is increasing.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publi...-gets-it.shtml

The point is that there is likely some form of legitimate difference between someone who is homosexual and someone who is heterosexual.

Some stuff from Psychology Today:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/artic...ender-identity

Eric Vilain, an assistant professor of genetics at UCLA, compared the activity levels of genes in male and female brains in 10-day-old embryonic mice—days before they developed sex organs. He found 18 genes that were more strongly active in male embryonic brains, and 36 that were revved up in female brains...

...The finding suggests that genes play an important role in the early development of sexual identity, and probably have much to do with shaping gender in the mammalian brain..

Also very interesting and has potential:

No one has yet identified a particular gay gene, but Brian Mustanski, a psychologist at the University of Illinois at Chicago, is examining a gene that helps time the release of testosterone from the testes of a male fetus. Testosterone masculinizes the fetal genitalia—and presumably also the brain. Without it, the fetus stays female. It may be that the brains of gay men don't feel the full effects of testosterone at the right time during fetal development, and so are insufficiently masculinized.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/artic...ing-the-switch

So what happens to that uncontrollable chemical process when a gay man changes his way and marrys a woman? Did it simply not exist? I don't think so either. It's a psychological complication that can be overcome.

A lot of this has to do with societal pressures and homosexuals who just can't or won't accept it for whatever reason. It doesn't mean it's not there and that it's not impacting their lives every day. A childhood friend of my wife's is married to a guy and since I've known him it's been very obvious to me that he's homosexual and just hasn't accepted it yet. He's not affectionate at all to his wife, he's extremely effeminte, and he has absolutely no clue in how to communicate with other guys, but in a group of females he thrives. It does happen and you can certainly argue that guys like him are choosing NOT to acknowledge those feelings, but that doesn't mean that they're not there and that doesn't mean that it won't impact their marriage.

A question for you: Do you believe that addiction is a disease or a psychological complication that can be overcome?

I agree to an extent. My position of "It's a choice" is that they have a choice on whether or not to pursue heterosexuality. Not that they(most, as some, such as bisexuals, just want to experiment or intermingle, constituting a decision) made a decision to be gay. It's not a choice insofar that they (most) have a decision point in their life where they say, I want to be gay. We all have our demons so to speak, and as with all demons, they can be overcome.

Being Gay isn't a "demon" and just because someone who is homosexual chooses to pursue heterosexuality doesn't mean that they still aren't homosexual. It has little to do with "I want to be gay or straight" versus "I am gay or straight".

**pyite32** · 05-14-2012, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by AirFlacco

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Galen posted a story every day about Palin and Bush before you came around.

Witty retort, and still no answer. You have nothing to offer. Ignored.

**Galen Sevinne** · 05-14-2012, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Sirdowski

With every response, the death of a strawman. Biz' as usual. You make an illegitimate claim of truth, I legitimately refute that, you respond by degrading my position or painting an extreme picture of it. I think it should be glaringly obvious at this point to any on lookers that this isn't some concomitant phenomena; It's your MO.

And you my friend, when faced with a message that is threatening to your gods, slay the messenger. You are the antagonist in the mind of Pierre Boulle; desperately protecting yourself from stumbling upon a truth which may force you to sweep up your little collection of gods. Attack the theory first but after the theory takes hold, attack the source of the theory.

Man can't know truth because he is a prisoner of his own subjective experience yet, somehow, his wriggles free from his intellectual shackles long enough to know god. God is truth because I think it. "Cogito, ergo Deus est" Your own mocking of intellectual thought must wrap around like an Escher enigma to leave you even doubting your gods in the end. No? Or you haven't seen that fateful outcome?

Or does it suffice to sit around in Wednesday night men's bible class reconfirming your own beliefs that I think god, therefore god exists and that is somehow different?

The truth is you can't let go of your superstitions long enough to stare into the existential abyss that is life. Its too deep...to dark to entertain the truth that we come into life alone and leave it alone. Don't step on that crack! We die and decay like all the other life forms we witness, yet, our life form is different, it must be! We must rise to that eye in the sky that is always there, no? We are created in the image of our creator and are placed in the center. Alas...the center moves or was never there? What are we then? We look like beasts but don't go there. Are we beasts?

Please Sir...give me permission not to think those forbidden thoughts. I need god, or else I'm no greater than a leaf.

To be able to understand our own ultimate purposelessness is the only thing that truly separates us from that which surrounds us; that is the fate of man. Alone, we either come to that conclusion or defer it to the collection plate.

**Sirdowski** · 05-14-2012, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Some psychological disorders are not inherent from birth, but that doesn't mean that they aren't present. Modern medicine/science just has no way of discerning the disorders (not that homosexuality is a disorder). For example, schizophrenia is a psychological disorder that most effects males and females, but doesn't normally come to fruition until early adulthood (ages 17-24 or so). Just because something doesn't manifest during infancy or birth doesn't mean that it's not there.

I mean inherent from birth as in genetic. Schizophrenia most Certainty has significant genetic components. Without the genetic component of Homosexuality, it is reduced to a psychological disorder that has arisen from a miscellany of possibilities. The problem is, being genetic is necessary to make legitimate claims of, "they were born that way, its what they are, its not a deviation from normal."

The point is that there is likely some form of legitimate difference between someone who is homosexual and someone who isn't

Maybe. But this doesn't mean it's not irresponsible to suppose the differences based off of the ostensible.

It doesn't mean it's not there and that it's not impacting their lives every day. A childhood friend of my wife's is married to a guy and since I've known him it's been very obvious to me that he's homosexual and just hasn't accepted it yet. He's not affectionate at all to his wife, he's extremely effeminte, and he has absolutely no clue in how to communicate with other guys, but in a group of females he thrives. It does happen and you can certainly argue that guys like him are choosing NOT to acknowledge those feelings, but that doesn't mean that they're not there and that doesn't mean that it won't impact their marriage.

I know men who are the exact same way and aren't homosexual. You could argue that they in fact could be and are simply hiding it, but thats assuming that every overly (as if there is a normal or non overly)effeminate man is gay, which is obviously false, and simply unprovable.

A question for you: Do you believe that addiction is a disease or a psychological complication that can be overcome?

Depends. Can be both. Alcoholism in fact has a genetic component, and could be filed under both.

Being Gay isn't a "demon" and just because someone who is homosexual chooses to pursue heterosexuality doesn't mean that they still aren't homosexual. It has little to do with "I want to be gay or straight" versus "I am gay or straight".

This is just equivocation of what exactly homosexuality actually is. Its more about "I want to sexually explore everything this world has to offer." We try to make some semblance of guidelines but there's just no clear understanding. Where exactly does the "I haven't been gay for 30 years and am happily married with children," come in, or is that just a facade? He simply couldn't handle the societal pressure any longer so hid back in the closet? If so, how does someone actively resist what their body is telling them to do while at the same time being satisfied and at peace? Many homosexuals turn away never to return again.

**wickedsolo** · 05-14-2012, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Sirdowski

This is just equivocation of what exactly homosexuality actually is. Its more about "I want to sexually explore everything this world has to offer." We try to make some semblance of guidelines but there's just no clear understanding. Where exactly does the "I haven't been gay for 30 years and am happily married with children," come in, or is that just a facade? He simply couldn't handle the societal pressure any longer so hid back in the closet? If so, how does someone actively resist what their body is telling them to do while at the same time being satisfied and at peace? Many homosexuals turn away never to return again.

I guess my question would be well how do heroin addicts stay clean? Or how to alcoholics stay sober? Just because their body is physically demanding those things doesn't mean that the person can't withstand those demands. However, that doesn't mean that they aren't addicts just because they choose to deny those physical attractions.

To me, it's the same way with homosexuality. There are some who just can't or won't accept it and go on with their lives. And then there are others who acknowledge the difference in physical attractions and just accept it.

**Sirdowski** · 05-14-2012, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne

And you my friend, when faced with a message that is threatening to your gods, slay the messenger. You are the antagonist in the mind of Pierre Boulle; desperately protecting yourself from stumbling upon a truth which may force you to sweep up your little collection of gods. Attack the theory first but after the theory takes hold, attack the source of the theory.

Man can't know truth because he is a prisoner of his own subjective experience yet, somehow, his wriggles free from his intellectual shackles long enough to know god. God is truth because I think it. "Cogito, ergo Deus est" Your own mocking of intellectual thought must wrap around like an Escher enigma to leave you even doubting your gods in the end. No? Or you haven't seen that fateful outcome?

Or does it suffice to sit around in Wednesday night men's bible class reconfirming your own beliefs that I think god, therefore god exists and that is somehow different?

The truth is you can't let go of your superstitions long enough to stare into the existential abyss that is life. Its too deep...to dark to entertain the truth that we come into life alone and leave it alone. Don't step on that crack! We die and decay like all the other life forms we witness, yet, our life form is different, it must be! We must rise to that eye in the sky that is always there, no? We are created in the image of our creator and are placed in the center. Alas...the center moves or was never there? What are we then? We look like beasts but don't go there. Are we beasts?

Please Sir...give me permission not to think those forbidden thoughts. I need god, or else I'm no greater than a leaf.

To be able to understand our own ultimate purposelessness is the only thing that truly separates us from that which surrounds us; that is the fate of man. Alone, we either come to that conclusion or defer it to the collection plate.

I'm sorry to know you live such a dark and jaded existence. Seeing through what is the window into your soul I'm glad, that if nothing else, I amuse your universe with the fantasy of a true meaning. I am thankful every day that I am spared by such disparity because of my Lord and savior Jesus Christ. I am not so foolish to think I could ever convince you of a single thing I write. This would never however stop me from forcing you to defend what you believe, in hope that through introspection you would convince yourself.

Magna opera Domini exquisita in omnes voluntates ejus

**NCRAVEN** · 05-14-2012, 12:49 PM

I think I can sum up where this thread is going with an old saying.

"For those who believe no explanation is necessary, for those who don't, no explanation is possible"

**Sirdowski** · 05-14-2012, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

I guess my question would be well how do heroin addicts stay clean? Or how to alcoholics stay sober? Just because their body is physically demanding those things doesn't mean that the person can't withstand those demands. However, that doesn't mean that they aren't addicts just because they choose to deny those physical attractions.

To me, it's the same way with homosexuality. There are some who just can't or won't accept it and go on with their lives. And then there are others who acknowledge the difference in physical attractions and just accept it.

An interesting perspective but it's still just a false equivalency.

**wickedsolo** · 05-14-2012, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Sirdowski

An interesting perspective but it's still just a false equivalency.

I don't see what's false about it.

**Galen Sevinne** · 05-14-2012, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Sirdowski

I'm sorry to know you live such a dark and jaded existence. Seeing through what is the window into your soul I'm glad, that if nothing else, I amuse your universe with the fantasy of a true meaning. I am thankful every day that I am spared by such disparity because of my Lord and savior Jesus Christ. I am not so foolish to think I could ever convince you of a single thing I write. This would never however stop me from forcing you to defend what you believe, in hope that through introspection you would convince yourself.

Magna opera Domini exquisita in omnes voluntates ejus

Preach it brother!