The Gay Thread cont.

[Galen Sevinne]

not sure why the other one was shut down. Nothing worse than typing a response and submitting to "Thread Locked". I didn't see any name calling...not that we aren't all adults here but I digress. Alas...I remember the wild west days of the political forum where words were free and liberty was cheap...

Speaking as a bisexual male, it's sad to read some of the perspectives in this thread that still portray homosexuality as a pathology to be treated rather than a valid part of an individual's identity. I honestly hope some day that societies as a whole are able to move beyond this binary representation that does way more harm than good.

It's changing here in the states...slowly but is changing. The reaction to Obama's statement is very telling as to what this country believes. A couple years ago, you would have seen a stronger reaction against Obama. It would have been couched as a "war on marriage" and a "tearing of the social fabric" blah blah blah but really the only thing the conservatives are trying to stick to the wall here is that was some type of "political play" on Obama's part. There is a big difference in "war on marriage" and "political play". It speaks volumes on the increasing comfort that moderate America feels on gay relationships. The most ironic part of the whole "political play" talking point is that the connies then turn around and say how it will negatively affect Obama. How does that work????

That being said, there will always be the extreme side of the argument that see the devil's work in homosexuality and caste it as a pathology or a choice.

[wickedsolo]

It seems to me that the reason why what the POTUS said isn't "blowing people's minds" is because a lot of Americans just don't really care anymore.

[Galen Sevinne]

It seems to me that the reason why what the POTUS said isn't "blowing people's minds" is because a lot of Americans just don't really care anymore.

Over 70% of college aged folks support gay marriage. This number will only increase over time.

[wickedsolo]

Over 70% of college aged folks support gay marriage. This number will only increase over time.

"College aged folks" isn't a massive portion of the population.

My point is that all of the folks who were all up in arms about homosexuality 10 or 20 years ago have just become apathetic about the whole thing.

[Galen Sevinne]

"College aged folks" isn't a massive portion of the population.

My point is that all of the folks who were all up in arms about homosexuality 10 or 20 years ago have just become apathetic about the whole thing.

Its not a massive amount but it is still a significant amount but more importantly, you can see the evolution of where thinking is going. In a decade, gay people will be getting married in churches regularly.

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[NCRAVEN]

Its not a massive amount but it is still a significant amount but more importantly, you can see the evolution of where thinking is going. In a decade, gay people will be getting married regularly.

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Fixed it for you.

[4G63]

Fixed it for you.

I'm glad you did because the government will never force a church to marry gay couples. It'll never happen. If they choose to thats their prerogative.

[jonboy79]

There is also an increasing number of non-traditional churches as well. If and when Gay Marriage is legal, I would hope that a "business" would be born for non-traditional churches to perform such services. I'm sure many churches would still cringe at the thought, and, IMO, that is ENTIRELY within their rights.

For the record, I don't think there are very many people who think gay couples shouldn't be allowed to share health insurance, file taxes as "married" or have power of attourney and other such legal benefits. I think almost all of the pushback is the desire to use the word marriage, and potentially the "attmepts" to strongarm unwilling churches into the practice.

I think the true evolution and completeion of this discussion should lead the government to insert the word civil union in place of marriage in all documents, and return that word to the religious institutions. thus, they could reinvent the idea from a legal perspective with little to no backlash from those clutching their bibles. Win/Win. I see no harm in this compromise to anyone.

[4G63]

There is also an increasing number of non-traditional churches as well. If and when Gay Marriage is legal, I would hope that a "business" would be born for non-traditional churches to perform such services. I'm sure many churches would still cringe at the thought, and, IMO, that is ENTIRELY within their rights.

For the record, I don't think there are very many people who think gay couples shouldn't be allowed to share health insurance, file taxes as "married" or have power of attourney and other such legal benefits. I think almost all of the pushback is the desire to use the word marriage, and potentially the "attmepts" to strongarm unwilling churches into the practice.

I think the true evolution and completeion of this discussion should lead the government to insert the word civil union in place of marriage in all documents, and return that word to the religious institutions. thus, they could reinvent the idea from a legal perspective with little to no backlash from those clutching their bibles. Win/Win. I see no harm in this compromise to anyone.

I agree 100% with this.

[Galen Sevinne]

Fixed it for you.

Churches will marry gay people in a decade without problems because society as a whole will no longer have a problem with it. Churches are the canary in the coal mine when it comes to the morality of the general society. With a younger generation coming into adulthood not carrying the bigotry of the preceding generation, even churches will change or else they will become obsolete .

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[Sirdowski]

Churches will marry gay people in a decade without problems because society as a whole will no longer have a problem with it. Churches are the canary in the coal mine when it comes to the morality of the general society. With a younger generation coming into adulthood not carrying the bigotry of the preceding generation, even churches will change or else they will become obsolete .

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Lol.

[Lee Van Cleef]

It's changing here in the states...slowly but is changing. The reaction to Obama's statement is very telling as to what this country believes. A couple years ago, you would have seen a stronger reaction against Obama. It would have been couched as a "war on marriage" and a "tearing of the social fabric" blah blah blah but really the only thing the conservatives are trying to stick to the wall here is that was some type of "political play" on Obama's part. There is a big difference in "war on marriage" and "political play". It speaks volumes on the increasing comfort that moderate America feels on gay relationships. The most ironic part of the whole "political play" talking point is that the connies then turn around and say how it will negatively affect Obama. How does that work????

That being said, there will always be the extreme side of the argument that see the devil's work in homosexuality and caste it as a pathology or a choice.

And it's not my intention to bash Americans, I know that's not what you are getting at, I just want to say it for myself. I fully appreciated that the vocal anti-gay marriage/uncomfortable with homosexuality element is not representative of American society as a whole, and the greater disinterest in the whole issue is oddly comforting in that it does suggest people are just realising it's not that big a deal.

[NCRAVEN]

Lol.

+1

[jonboy79]

Churches will marry gay people in a decade without problems because society as a whole will no longer have a problem with it. Churches are the canary in the coal mine when it comes to the morality of the general society. With a younger generation coming into adulthood not carrying the bigotry of the preceding generation, even churches will change or else they will become obsolete .

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It would be my contention that churches will become obsolete within a few generations pretty much no matter what they do. I think religion in the near future will be a television/internet thing to the minority still interested in it. Church, and religion in general is far less important to those under roughly 40 years of age then those above that age.

[NCRAVEN]

It's changing here in the states...slowly but is changing. The reaction to Obama's statement is very telling as to what this country believes. A couple years ago, you would have seen a stronger reaction against Obama. It would have been couched as a "war on marriage" and a "tearing of the social fabric" blah blah blah but really the only thing the conservatives are trying to stick to the wall here is that was some type of "political play" on Obama's part. There is a big difference in "war on marriage" and "political play". It speaks volumes on the increasing comfort that moderate America feels on gay relationships. The most ironic part of the whole "political play" talking point is that the connies then turn around and say how it will negatively affect Obama. How does that work????

You really need think outside your highly partisan box sometimes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/15/us...-politics.html

Sixty-seven percent of those surveyed by The New York Times and CBS News since the announcement said they thought that Mr. Obama had made it “mostly for political reasons,” while 24 percent said it was “mostly because he thinks it is right.” Independents were more likely to attribute it to politics, with nearly half of Democrats agreeing.

[Galen Sevinne]

And it's not my intention to bash Americans, I know that's not what you are getting at, I just want to say it for myself. I fully appreciated that the vocal anti-gay marriage/uncomfortable with homosexuality element is not representative of American society as a whole, and the greater disinterest in the whole issue is oddly comforting in that it does suggest people are just realising it's not that big a deal.

Yeah...its a reflex action on my part when I notice someone discussing american social issues that is not American to quickly defend America as not so backwards. I have spent a lot of time abroad in my life and the questions always come up about Americans odd relationship with sex and some other social issues. I don't think the majority of Americans are homophobic or even antigay or really even think about it too much. Of course, I have always lived on the east coast, around cities and around progressive people and institutions.

The percentage of teenagers that are bisexual or at least open about it has increased dramatically in the past decade and their comfort discussing same sex relationships is really astonishing. Of course the older generations are still openly condemning it but my point earlier about college-aged kids and younger is that it is rapidly changing and religious institutions will need to adapt to their perspectives or else become a thing of the past. There are a lot more nondenominational churches springing up that are more tolerant of different views which will probably absorb a lot of the younger folks as they come of age.

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[darb72]

It would be my contention that churches will become obsolete within a few generations pretty much no matter what they do. I think religion in the near future will be a television/internet thing to the minority still interested in it. Church, and religion in general is far less important to those under roughly 40 years of age then those above that age.

So you have some stats to back that up, or are you just guessing based on the people you hang around?

[TheExtraPoint]

So you have some stats to back that up, or are you just guessing based on the people you hang around?

That's an odd request given all of the anecdotal evidence that informs some of your opinions, like the ones you shared a few days ago:

The highly amusing thing about this entire argument is that not even the gay community agrees 100% on gay marriages. At least half the gay folks I know are opposed to gay marriage, a couple of them even more fiercely opposed than the holy rollers I hang out with.

Yet straight people, with no horse in the race, get really fired up about it.

I know more gay folks than most folks on this board because of my job. Admittedly we don't sit around discussing the political ramifications of being gay, but every so often, like Obama saying he's pro-gay marriage, the topic comes up. It's really about a 50/50 split with gay males leaning more towards anti-gay marriage while the lesbians want it legalized.

[Galen Sevinne]

That's an odd request given all of the anecdotal evidence that informs some of your opinions, like the ones you shared a few days ago:

Shhhhhh....he knows real gay people and he has empirically proven that to be fact.

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[jonboy79]

So you have some stats to back that up, or are you just guessing based on the people you hang around?

It's an educated guess, that i find curious that anyone would oppose???
I personally know only a single person my age or younger(32) that intentionally, regularly attends church or temple on a regular basis. Interestingly, the majority of people I know above my age are regular attnedees. I do however know a fair ammount of holiday attnedees, and even a fair ammount of typicallly non practicers that follow practices such as fasting on Yom Kippur.

So while my sample size is small and likely tainted, the difference between 50+% over 40 and far under 10% under 40 are pretty glaring... I'm sure the real numbers are closer, but by how much?

Do you have stats you would like to share? And there is no point in looking at those under the age of 18, whom have no say in whether they attend or not. I am only concerned about those between say 18-40. I'd even be interested in historical numbers for that age group in case you have data to suggest many of my contemporaries are more likely to attend once their age increases. Also of note is that my sample includes single people, married people, those with families, gay, straight, Muslim, Jewish, accross multiple races though skews towards white, straight and either Jewish or Christian. Geographically, my sample exists generally from this area northeast into southeastern Canada.
The lone weekly practicioner I know is an Orthodox Jew, born in Israel who only returned to weekly temple after starting a family. I do know his wife, so I guess that makes it two.