The Gay Thread cont.

[Galen Sevinne]

You just are clueless. Christians take in the needy of all faiths all of the time. Or do you have examples of Christians treating Muslims badly (something current like what is happening to Christians in Egypt and the Sudan, etc - right now)?

Christians in this country spent six months having an aneurism about Muslims building a Mosque several blocks from ground zero and then southern states started trying to stop the building of mosques anywhere.

I would love to see two long haired Muslim-looking individuals come hiking out of the desert speaking no native tongue and watch how many baptists churches would allow these two travelers to sleep on the floor of their church unsupervised. Never happen, not in this country.

[NCRAVEN]

Christians in this country spent six months having an aneurism about Muslims building a Mosque several blocks from ground zero and then southern states started trying to stop the building of mosques anywhere.

I would love to see two long haired Muslim-looking individuals come hiking out of the desert speaking no native tongue and watch how many baptists churches would allow these two travelers to sleep on the floor of their church unsupervised. Never happen, not in this country.

He said Christians, not baptist specifically. You're mixing the two, on purpose (and we all know why).

Also, could you imagine if two Baptist were walking in Iran and came across to members of Al-Qaeda I'd imagine you'd seem them get a place to sleep and some food and water as well, right?

EDIT: One other thing, Galen. Seriously, why do you talk about how bad this country is and talk about Muslim countries/people like they are so tolerant? Could you list me (other than your one story) some examples of religious tolerance by Muslim people or countries?

[NCRAVEN]

Threads like this make me feel even better about being a Deist.

I must say, I envy you today.

[Greg]

Inspired, literal, does it really matter?

Either way someone believes in God and if they believe one or the other (to me) that doesn't determine the level of someones Christianity.

Uh, yes, it does matter. Please note my post. If you don't take the whole thing as true and throw out what you don't like what does it matter?

If you believe Jesus is who he said he was and you accept the offer of him to bear your sins you are a Christian. You don't have to take the Bible as literal to do that. I just wonder why people would believe that part and not the rest.

You know, if you really study Christianity nothing it more freeing.

1 Corinthians 10:23 - "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.

Christians and only Christians are freed from the Law completely. But if you really accept Christ as your Lord and Savior these things, while legal, are not as attractive as they once were. And much of them become reprehensible.

[Greg]

Threads like this make me feel even better about being a Deist.

Feelings are all well and good but are you a Deist because you like the feeling or because it is the truth?

[NCRAVEN]

Uh, yes, it does matter. Please note my post. If you don't take the whole thing as true and throw out what you don't like what does it matter?

If you believe Jesus is who he said he was and you accept the offer of him to bear your sins you are a Christian. You don't have to take the Bible as literal to do that. I just wonder why people would believe that part and not the rest.

You know, if you really study Christianity nothing it more freeing.

1 Corinthians 10:23 - "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.

Christians and only Christians are freed from the Law completely. But if you really accept Christ as your Lord and Savior these things, while legal, are not as attractive as they once were. And much of them become reprehensible.

My guess would be the people who believe that part and not the rest, believe those things because there were witnesses of miracles Jesus performed, but the things people wrote saying their from God who is the witness other than the writer? (Again, just a guess)

[HoustonRaven]

Feelings are all well and good but are you a Deist because you like the feeling or because it is the truth?

I don't presume to know the "truth" nor do I base my faith on a "feeling". I do know and believe (read have faith in) a supreme being that got all of this started and kept it going for billions of years.

There is nothing a finite being can do to prove the existence of the infinite. Proof is a finite concept.

[Greg]

My guess would be the people who believe that part and not the rest, believe those things because there were witnesses of miracles Jesus performed, but the things people wrote saying their from God who is the witness other than the writer? (Again, just a guess)

Jesus taught the Old Testament, all of it, was the Word of God. The NT was written almost exclusively by people who had miracles attributed to them. Much of those are in Acts, written by Luke, not an Apostle and no miracles are attributed to him (that I recall). But he was a first rate historian.

[Greg]

I don't presume to know the "truth" nor do I base my faith on a "feeling". I do know and believe (read have faith in) a supreme being that got all of this started and kept it going for billions of years.

There is nothing a finite being can do to prove the existence of the infinite. Proof is a finite concept.

Nope, people can not prove God exists. But God can give quite good evidence in all manner and form. It is just a matter of sifting for truth.

Do you believe this God would just create and have no interest after that?

By the way, why are you a Deist if you don't presume that is the truth?

[HoustonRaven]

Nope, people can not prove God exists. But God can give quite good evidence in all manner and form. It is just a matter of sifting for truth.

Agreed.

Do you believe this God would just create and have no interest after that?

Just because we don't always see God's input does not necessarily mean God is disinterested. But your question supposes that time is the same for finite beings as it is for the infinite. A billion or so years for the man upstairs may be the time it takes for him to run to the fridge and grab a beer.

[Greg]

Agreed.



Just because we don't always see God's input does not necessarily mean God is disinterested. But your question supposes that time is the same for finite beings as it is for the infinite. A billion or so years for the man upstairs may be the time it takes for him to run to the fridge and grab a beer.

That wasn't the point I was after. Generally, and this may not apply to how you define it, but generally a Deist believes in a Creator God who is NOT personal and does not have a personal relationship with his creatures while a Theist would believe God is personal and does want a relationship with his creatures.

[HoustonRaven]

That wasn't the point I was after. Generally, and this may not apply to how you define it, but generally a Deist believes in a Creator God who is NOT personal and does not have a personal relationship with his creatures while a Theist would believe God is personal and does want a relationship with his creatures.

That's my mistake.

Theist is more an appropriate definition. I always confuse Theism for Agnosticism, to which I do not agree.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Greg]

That's my mistake.

Theist is more an appropriate definition. I always confuse Theism for Agnosticism, to which I do not agree.

Thanks for pointing that out.

That clarifies.

This leaves you in one of 4 theistic groups. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, or a personal view not shared by a large group.

All other belief systems are either pantheistic or atheistic (or agnostic if one can't decide).

[Sirdowski]

A very simple yet profound explanation by renowned scientist Carl Sagan on how something seemingly "magical" has a very real scientific foundation. That is, how a God can interact with our universe despite transcending it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0

[NCRAVEN]

Jesus taught the Old Testament, all of it, was the Word of God. The NT was written almost exclusively by people who had miracles attributed to them. Much of those are in Acts, written by Luke, not an Apostle and no miracles are attributed to him (that I recall). But he was a first rate historian.

You'll know this better than I. Did Jesus teach the Old Testament was the literal word of God or inspired by? (Again to me it doesn't matter)

[Galen Sevinne]

A very simple yet profound explanation by renowned scientist Carl Sagan on how something seemingly "magical" has a very real scientific foundation. That is, how a God can interact with our universe despite transcending it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0

Kudos for Sir for adding a slice of the cerebral to the conversation. You never disappoint as long as we can keep you away from the children.

I do have a problem though...

It seems heretical, even in the eyes of this infidel, to cast god as a histrionic apple who can't be recognized or perceived without the serendipitious questioning of one's sanity. (well, on second thought that sort of makes sense...scratch that)

Futher troubling though is the suggestion that our skittish apple-god exists below a manifold of greater dimensions where he can only gather mere perceptual shadows of reality quite like Plato often opined about organic man. (you know, I just might be warming up to this idea as well...scratch it again)

I think maybe I can believe in your god afterall. It might explain the not-so-hard-to-notice flaws in his design if all along he was just oscillating between the need to be noticed as true and his enchantment of watching the fluttering shadows above, all the time while trying to follow the directions on how to put the pieces together below. Surely this would hinder his architecture while explaining why he is so angry.

The analogy beautifully combines the elements of insanity or let's just call it magical thinking involved as well as maybe why the creation is so horribly fucked up for what was once such a divine beginning.

[AirFlacco]

Okay, help me out here, why do you say Catholics are not Christians? Based on the definition in your last paragraph, many I know would qualify as a "true christian"..

EDIT: disregard, I misread the first paragraph....

Glad I'm not the only one doing that-lol.

And thanks for explaining it to Pyite. You said it much better than me as usual and I would have been bopped again for calling him a dick or even a turkey even if I'm attacked first.

Same kudos to Greg for his points saying it much better than me.

Also to Darb for his comments on me.

[AirFlacco]

One last point on the inspired word of God or 66 points. As someone said, think about these facts:

_______________________________________
Think about the above realities: 66 books, written by 40 different authors, over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents. What’s more, this collection of books shares a common storyline- the creation, fall, and redemption of God’s people; a common theme- God’s universal love for all of humanity; and a common message- salvation is available to all who repent of their sins and commit to following God with all of their heart, soul, mind and strength. In addition to sharing these commonalities, these 66 books contain no historical errors or contradictions. God’s word truly is an amazing collection of writings!
_____________________________

And as I keep saying, Daniel's prophesies concerning the rebirth of Israel came true in more than 20 Centuries after he said it would. Same with the discovery and excavation of Babylon and the restoration of Nebecannezera's Southern Palace and the
Isthar Gate amongst many other dwellings. These are just a few
prophesies that have come true in our life time.

[darb72]

First off my problem isn't necessarily with Christians I am one... , it's with extremism in all it's forms. Whether it be extreme Christians, extreme Muslims, extreme Right Wing, extreme Left Wing whatever, and you fall into two of these categories. I will continue to argue about anything a zealot spews.

Second, the picture was a joke (hence the fact that it was an actual line from a comedy show) chill out.

I wasn't upset about the picture, just pointing out the hypocrisy in the world now where it's perfectly alright to insult Christians but we're expected to respect everyone else. Probably could've worded it better.

[Greg]

A very simple yet profound explanation by renowned scientist Carl Sagan on how something seemingly "magical" has a very real scientific foundation. That is, how a God can interact with our universe despite transcending it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0

You know, for a smart guy he sure missed the obvious.

First, there is no "before" the universe since time itself came into existence with it.

Second, there was NO universe, there was no space so it wasn't some "thing" devoid of matter because there was nothing, as in NO THING. That includes space, time, matter, energy, gravity, electromagnetism, the weak nuclear force, and the strong nuclear force. There was nothing of what we would call nature. This is a mathematical and scientific point and if he or anyone else disagrees they can take it up with Einstein and relativity, which has been proven over and over again by its predictions of experiments indeed being correct.

Third, since time did not exist outside the universe its cause would be timeless and thus not need a cause. So asking what created God or where he came from is a nonsensical question (or whatever you attribute to the cause of the universe). A simple mental exercise in considering the absurdity of endless causes and effects leading to this point in time should also show that an uncaused cause, or Cause, is required. This was determined even before it was discovered the universe came into existence at a finite point in the past, t=0. You simply can not have an infinite cause and effect process because we would never get here. You can not progress across an infinite amount of anything as there is no point to even start progressing much less some end (in this timeline in this case) to get to.

It might explain the not-so-hard-to-notice flaws in his design . . .

These kind of takes show nonsensical thinking. It assumes knowledge of God's purpose and plan for the universe and that is somehows misses the mark. Do you have some insight into the Creator's purpose and that indeed this universe is flawed in some way to fulfill that purpose?

Your condescension reveals your high view of your intellect but it does not come out into your argumentation here.

You also completely missed the idea of the being in the higher number of dimensions. You seem to think it has some limitation . . .

Futher troubling though is the suggestion that our skittish apple-god exists below a manifold of greater dimensions where he can only gather mere perceptual shadows of reality quite like Plato often opined about organic man.

LOL - seriously, making Platonic references might impress some people but your complete lack of understanding that the 3rd dimensional apple could perceive 2 dimensional space better than 2 dimensional beings shows your ignorance on the matter. It is akin to you looking at a film. You can see all of the film at once, you can even move through the timeline of the film, the various frames and its 3rd dimension much like time, our 4th is to us, freely and without limit, being able to time travel in that world.

The ability to access another dimension gives a being incredible understanding in all manner of ways and limits it in no way.

And current science is that beyond our recognizable 4 space and time dimensions are at least 6 more as there is no other way to make sense of gravity and quantum mechanices as we currently understand them.

Thus, if there is a Creator outside the universe, which is implied since the universe began to exist and something not in it would be its cause, it would more than likely have access to all of these. Further, IT WOULD NOT EVEN BE LIMITED BY THEM SINCE IT WAS OUTSIDE THEM!