Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

**wickedsolo** · 05-22-2012, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

And he caught 3 more, with a higher YPC and more YPG. He also played 1 less game than Rice. If "total yards" are your yardstick for how good a player is, Darren Sproles was way, way better than Ray Rice last year. Antonio Brown was a good bit better, too.

Seriously, who gives a shit about total yards? They are not a good yardstick for how good a player actually was, particularly if he had a ton of chances to accumulate those yards, as Rice did.

McCoy was a better all-around back last year despite playing behind a weaker OL, without an elite lead blocker, in an offense less friendly to RB production. He was MUCH better in short yardage, he broke off more long runs, he scored more TDs, he broke more tackles... the only thing he didn't do was produce as much in the passing game, but that's at least partly a function of the Eagles offense, where the RB is the #4 target in the passing game (DJax, Maclin, Celek, Avant, then McCoy) vs. our system where the back is usually the #2 or #3 target.

I'm not saying McCoy has had a better career than Rice, but he did have a better year last year. FYI, I don't even believe 2011 was Rice's best year as a pro. That would be 2009, when he had .5 more yards per carry, broke a lot more tackles for a lot of yards after contact and was just as good in the passing game.

Frankly, total yards is an "easy" way to depict whether or not a RB had a better season than the other, but I don't think it tells the whole story whatsoever. Again, I'll always feel this way, stats are useful, but only tell part of the story. IMO, Maurice Jones-Drew had the best season out of any RB last year simply because of the lack of any other offense around them. Granted, there are lots of factors that go into the season of a RB, but last year MJD was (IMO) had the best season out of any RB and IIRC, he didn't have nearly the yards from scrimmage or total yards of Ray Rice or Darren Sproles.

I think Rice and McCoy are comparable RB's, but I think both bring different elements to the table that the other doesn't have. Rice has excellent vision, patience, and balance. McCoy has elite quickness and high end speed. Both are good receivers. Rice is thicker, but McCoy is taller. Rice has a lower center of gravity, but McCoy is 2 years younger.

It's kind of like 6 in one hand 1/2 dozen in the other.

At the end of the day - contractually speaking - Rice and his agent have to realize that two of the top two RB's under 26 years old just signed for deals significantly less than what AP and CJ got.

**leachisabeast** · 05-22-2012, 11:35 AM

But here is the other point to the story. Rice is our main guy on our offense, McCoy and Foster are not. Both Foster and McCoy are of course very very important to their teams offense (more so Foster than McCoy), however Rice is our main consistent player on offense, yeah he has had some bad play off games here and there (a lot of the time due to poor execution on the offensive line), but he has been more consistent than any of our offensive players discounting the offensive line and Vonta Leach.

The truth is, the Texans where not sweating too much if Foster didn't sign an extension to what they offered him, because they have Ben Tate, plus a better offensive line, maybe the best in football, and of course don't forget about Andre Johnson. The Eagles where probably not worried what so ever about it, and extending McCoy was a total luxury for them, and I only wished we could have extended Rice back in 2010. It doesn't matter about all the sides to the story, Rice and his agent can easily just say that those RB's where not as important to their offenses over the years as Rice has been to us, and will there for be demanding more money.

And just to clear some things up, Sproles is a fantastic RB, but I'd take Rice over him any day, as would the Saints, believe that.

**GOTA** · 05-22-2012, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

But here is the other point to the story. Rice is our main guy on our offense, McCoy and Foster are not. Both Foster and McCoy are of course very very important to their teams offense (more so Foster than McCoy), however Rice is our main consistent player on offense, yeah he has had some bad play off games here and there (a lot of the time due to poor execution on the offensive line), but he has been more consistent than any of our offensive players discounting the offensive line and Vonta Leach.

The truth is, the Texans where not sweating too much if Foster didn't sign an extension to what they offered him, because they have Ben Tate, plus a better offensive line, maybe the best in football, and of course don't forget about Andre Johnson. The Eagles where probably not worried what so ever about it, and extending McCoy was a total luxury for them, and I only wished we could have extended Rice back in 2010. It doesn't matter about all the sides to the story, Rice and his agent can easily just say that those RB's where not as important to their offenses over the years as Rice has been to us, and will there for be demanding more money.

And just to clear some things up, Sproles is a fantastic RB, but I'd take Rice over him any day, as would the Saints, believe that.

If the Texans thought Tate could step right in they wouldn't have paid Foster anywhere close to the money they did.

It doesn't really matter who does what in which system. All that matters is what the player would get on the open market. That's what both the team and the player are trying to figure out. If they can't agree on that then Rice plays for the tag number this year and they start all over again in 2013.

**blacknpurplepain** · 05-22-2012, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

No, but he did rush for 17 TD's.

I am sure if the Ravens had weapons like Vick and Jackson that would most def have helped Rice. When you play the eagles Vick can kill you and Jackson can. I still take Rice over McCoy. Plus the Ravens played 11 games against top 10 defenses last year.

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**blacknpurplepain** · 05-22-2012, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by GOTA

If the Texans thought Tate could step right in they wouldn't have paid Foster anywhere close to the money they did.

It doesn't really matter who does what in which system. All that matters is what the player would get on the open market. That's what both the team and the player are trying to figure out. If they can't agree on that then Rice plays for the tag number this year and they start all over again in 2013.

Read this morning that the hang up is $10 million

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**bmorecareful** · 05-22-2012, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Haloti92

When he said "total yards" he meant total yards from scrimmage; he wasn't talking about return yards. Sproles had 1313 yards from scrimmage, Rice had 2068. And unlike true "total yards" which include return yards, 2000+ yards from scrimmage is elite and very very hard to accomplish.

Yards from scrimmage can matter more than TDs if one guy gets more short plunges than another, but in terms of McCoy/Rice last year that really wasn't the case. McCoy did not have more 1-2 yard TDs than Rice, and may have actually had a couple less. He scored plenty of medium-to-long TDs and deserves credit for them.

YPC, McCoy was .1 better. YPR, Rice was 2.7 better. Yards per touch McCoy was 5.06 to Rice's 5.63, difference of .57, significant but of course Rice had more higher-average-in-general receptions. But if you adjust McCoy's attempts, while leaving his yards-per-carry and yards-per-reception unchanged, to those of Rice's attempts, 291 carries and 76 receptions, McCoy finishes with 1894 yards, a solid 174 less. That is the most direct efficiency comparison to be made in terms of per touch yardage efficiency. And Rice wins.

I completely disagree about who has the better offensive situation. Completely. Rice is constantly facing 8-9 man fronts. McCoy rarely is. The Eagles offense is nowhere near as predictable as ours. The number of times Rice runs up the middle on 1st and 10 into a defense that knows its coming dwarves the number of times McCoy does. The number of attempts McCoy gets when the other team is in a pass defense dwarves those of Rice. The types of run defenses McCoy faces with the Cowboys, Giants and Skins are nowhere near the Steelers, Bengals and Browns.

As for McCoy's receiving numbers (total receptions) I don't think they are a result of target priority as much as they are a result of the fact that Vick (and Young in the small amount of time he played) scrambled/rushed it 94 times to Flacco's 39. When the schit hits the fan, Flacco dumps to Rice most of the time; In Philly, Vick runs most of the time. This also means that Rice will be spied on pass plays, whereas Vick's ability prevents that from happening to McCoy, at least to the same degree.

The bottomline is McCoy had a great year. I have no problem with the argument it was "better" than Rice's, the TDs were impressive and everything else was great, but I do have a problem with people claiming that Rice has it much "easier" just because he gets a few more touches; Rice's supporting cast, including and especially the OC/scheme, are much worse than McCoy's (and most others), and his opposition is much tougher to run on (division).

I didn't say Rice has a better offensive situation, I said he is playing in a more RB friendly scheme. By that I meant the Ravens are built around a power running game with an old-school lead-blocker. In our offense the RB will be rushing the ball and catching the ball an absurd amount of times in a scheme designed for him to flourish. The Eagles in their WCO are not going to scheme as much to feature their RB. Your points are valid, but you are answering a question I did not ask, so to speak. (You're also just plain crazy if you think the Eagles had a better OL than we did last year, particularly interior OL. The Eagles had one of the league's worst interior OL while we had a top-3 unit there when Grubbs was healthy.)

You are right that the Eagles are a more multiple offense than we are, but a lot of your other points are not supported by the facts. Regarding how many 8-9 man fronts Rice is facing vs. McCoy, that's difficult to know without charting each game carefully. But in games when the Eagles went very run-heavy, which will usually cause teams to run a lot of stacked boxes, McCoy was still very effective. He averaged 4.6 YPC on carries 21 and over in 2011 while Rice averaged 4.25 on carries 21 and over, so even deep into a run-heavy game both backs were good, McCoy was better.

Stats vs. common opponents are almost a wash. Rice averaged 4.96 YPC vs the Rams, 49ers, Seahawks, and Jets, while McCoy averaged 5.18 (and hteir performances were individually pretty close overall.) Virtually identical, again McCoy is slightly ahead. Finally, regarding the quality of run defense in the respective divisions, the AFC North is ahead, but not by much. The Browns, Bengals, and Steelers average 13th in run defense by YPC allowed; the Giants, Redskins, and Cowboys were 17th.

And regarding Vick running, he actually ran by far the least he's ever run in his career this past year. He only had 76 attempts in 13 games--he had 100 in 11 in 2010 while still finding the time to throw McCoy 78 passes. So, that part of your argument doesn't seem to hold up. I also think you're overestimating the impact of the Eagles' passing game. Maybe in 2010 Vick was incredible, but he was distinctly average last year.

**JAB1985** · 05-22-2012, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by blacknpurplepain

Read this morning that the hang up is $10 million

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10 million in guaranteed money... which is what CJ got, Foster and McCoy didnt and what Rice feels he deserves. 30 vs 21 is a big deal. talking about a major difference in cap hit, if im not mistaken.

**Dirt1** · 05-22-2012, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by JAB1985

10 million in guaranteed money... which is what CJ got, Foster and McCoy didnt and what Rice feels he deserves. 30 vs 21 is a big deal. talking about a major difference in cap hit, if im not mistaken.

I would not go that high if I were Ozzie. I think that stance Ozzie should take at this point is to tell Rice and his agent that the offer is 5 yrs $45 million, with $21-22 million guaranteed. Take it or leave it.

**Corey** · 05-22-2012, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Dirt1

I would not go that high if I were Ozzie. I think that stance Ozzie should take at this point is to tell Rice and his agent that the offer is 5 yrs $45 million, with $21-22 million guaranteed. Take it or leave it.

At this point it's more about Rice's agent's reputation than anything else. The Ravens can dress the contract up and make it look like Rice's agent got him a better deal than what Foster and McCoy signed for. Build some hefty roster bonuses into the back end of it, give some highly unlikely to be earned incentives and basically make the 5th/ 6th year a sham year. Everybody wins. The Ravens get their guy without over paying. And Rice's agent gets to boast about how he got Rice a bigger contract than Foster and McCoy. Oh, yeah and Rice get's paid.

**GOTA** · 05-22-2012, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by blacknpurplepain

Read this morning that the hang up is $10 million

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$10 million per year or $10 million guaranteed over the life of the contract?

**leachisabeast** · 05-22-2012, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by blacknpurplepain

Read this morning that the hang up is $10 million

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Can I ask if you got that from Hensley? If so I wouldn't pay much mind to it. He was writing what HE thinks and stating his opinion, there are no real evident sources to that information. (Unless you read it from somewhere else.) I think he said something along the lines of "Rice may want more like the money Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson got".

31 million guaranteed is just too much for a back, I am very pro Rice, but no way in hell do I think the Ravens should do that.

**GOTA** · 05-22-2012, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by JAB1985

10 million in guaranteed money... which is what CJ got, Foster and McCoy didnt and what Rice feels he deserves. 30 vs 21 is a big deal. talking about a major difference in cap hit, if im not mistaken.

If it's that it's not happening.

**The Excellector** · 05-22-2012, 12:46 PM

Ray Rice has had just as many impressive playoffs games as Flacco. If Rice has slipped in the playoffs, due to the offensive line, Flacco has, due to the WRs and the offensive line and you can see it for yourself.

**Corey** · 05-22-2012, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Can I ask if you got that from Hensley? If so I wouldn't pay much mind to it. He was writing what HE thinks and stating his opinion, there are no real evident sources to that information. (Unless you read it from somewhere else.) I think he said something along the lines of "Rice may want more like the money Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson got".

31 million guaranteed is just too much for a back, I am very pro Rice, but no way in hell do I think the Ravens should do that.

If it came from Hensley than ESPN is once again contradicting itself. The 10 million per year comment that I made yesterday came from, I believe, Adam Schefter.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...vens-ray-rice/

**Dirt1** · 05-22-2012, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Corey

If it came from Hensley than ESPN is once again contradicting itself. The 10 million per year comment that I made yesterday came from, I believe, Adam Schefter.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...vens-ray-rice/

So, Rice wants $10 million per year, so 5 yrs $50 million with $21 million guaranteed, or an additional $10 million guaranteed? That would be a contract of 5 years, $50 million with $31 million guaranteed?

**GOTA** · 05-22-2012, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by The Excellector

Ray Rice has had just as many impressive playoffs games as Flacco. If Rice has slipped in the playoffs, due to the offensive line, Flacco has, due to the WRs and the offensive line and you can see it for yourself.

It doesn't matter. A great running back just isn't worth as much as an average quarterback. That's what the NFL wanted and they changed the rules to make sure it's what happened. Too bad for Rice he didn't hit free agency 2 years ago.

**The Excellector** · 05-22-2012, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by GOTA

It doesn't matter. A great running back just isn't worth as much as an average quarterback. That's what the NFL wanted and they changed the rules to make sure it's what happened. Too bad for Rice he didn't hit free agency 2 years ago.

I just don't understand how, whenever Rice slips, even though the offense is focused around him, Rice is more likely to get a pass. However, when Flacco slips, in an offense non-conducive to developing QBs, he hasn't shown that he can handle more. He's shown that he can make the throws. The front office has spoken. They'd rather win 15-12 than 42-38, and they've made that clear, both verbally and through the moves they've made.

To their credit, they've tried to get some better WRs. However, the first time he makes a mistake, they take the ball from him. If he doesn't throw the pass darn near perfectly, it rarely gets caught. They don't let him really sling it until they have no other choice and they still don't really give him significant input in the on-field management of the offense, even though that has somewhat improved.

**pslholder96** · 05-22-2012, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Corey

If it came from Hensley than ESPN is once again contradicting itself. The 10 million per year comment that I made yesterday came from, I believe, Adam Schefter.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...vens-ray-rice/

Adam Schefter said nothing like that, only that no progress was made. The $10 million quote came from some Chicago sports beat writer when he was looking at contracts signed by running backs thus far.

**ballhawk** · 05-22-2012, 01:15 PM

Hensley said today that Rice wants $30mil guaranteed and that the ravens are offering $20mil guaranteed. The $10mil that is getting thrown around is the difference between the two sides. If true, this is probably Rice's last year in bmore (maybe 2013). I think its just baseless speculation though, and a fancy way of saying that rice wants AP/CJ money while the ravens are offering foster/mccoy money.

**pslholder96** · 05-22-2012, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by ballhawk

Hensley said today that Rice wants $30mil guaranteed and that the ravens are offering $20mil guaranteed. The $10mil that is getting thrown around is the difference between the two sides. If true, this is probably Rice's last year in bmore (maybe 2013). I think its just baseless speculation though, and a fancy way of saying that rice wants AP/CJ money while the ravens are offering foster/mccoy money.

When did he say that? Is the blog below the one you're referring to you because if it is Hensley is purely speculating.

The Ravens and running back Ray Rice continue to talk, which is a positive sign. But the sides have not made any progress toward a new deal, a source familiar with the talks told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter.

Rice
The deadline for Rice and the Ravens to strike a new deal is 56 days away. If he doesn't sign a contract by July 16, he will play under the $7.7 million franchise tag.

The fact that there's been a lack of progress shows the struggle to find a middle ground. Rice probably believes he deserves a contract closer to the one given to the Titans' Chris Johnson (six years with $30 million guaranteed). In fact, Rice has had more total yards over the past three years than Johnson.

But the Ravens are likely trying to get the money closer to the deals recently signed by Arian Foster (five years, $43.5 million with $20.75 million guaranteed) and LeSean McCoy (five-year, $45 million with $20.76 million guaranteed). Baltimore can argue that is now the market value for running backs.

Until the sides can bridge a $10 million difference in the guaranteed money, there will be no progress made toward a new deal.