Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

**ravenjoe** · 05-29-2012, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by dirt1

i think the ravens do need leach. He gives their running attack a much needed identity, and sets a physical tone against teams.

absolutely agree!!!

**leachisabeast** · 05-29-2012, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Madison Hedgecock and Lawrence Vickers were available IIRC.

I don't know if it was due to injury or something else, but Vickers wasn't even the starting FB for the Texans in 2011. Neither of those players would have been much of an upgrade if at all over McClain, even as a lead blocker. Right now, I'd say Jed Collins (New Orleans) and Greg Jones II (Jacksonville) are the two other FB's who can actually block at a decent level.

**Ravens44** · 05-29-2012, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by TheJoeFlaccoShow

Love the offseason!

I think it has been determined that 90% of the team is either overpaid, expendable or just not that good.

Mind boggling how this team has the success it does with all this wasted cap space, and notorious underachievers all over the place at virtually every position.

How do they do it??

It's Boller's fault...no wait...it's Billick's fault...

**leachisabeast** · 05-29-2012, 03:38 PM

We are in worse state than the Oakland Raiders guys!!!

**GOTA** · 05-29-2012, 03:46 PM

I love watching Leach play but it's hard to justify that cap number for a fullback. The position just isn't on the field all that much. If you are going to pay a fullback I think it's better to have one who can also be a very effective short yardage runner.

John Kuhn of the Packers is a pretty good blocker, though not in the league of Leach, but he also has 8 rushing TDs the past 2 seasons while Leach has just 2 in his entire career. They are about equal as receivers. Kuhn is significantly cheaper than Leach. As great of a blocker as Leach is I'd rather have the short yardage ability of Kuhn and the contract.

**GOTA** · 05-29-2012, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by JAB1985

Also Hyponski. A lot of people here thought hed be a great blocking FB with potential, and thats exactly what he showed as a rookie. If we had an obvious opening on the roster im pretty sure we could have attained him.

That's a guy who should have been drafted. He had 12 teams trying to sign him as an undrafted free agent and ended up getting a better deal than he would have had he been taken in the later rounds.

**leachisabeast** · 05-29-2012, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by GOTA

I love watching Leach play but it's hard to justify that cap number for a fullback. The position just isn't on the field all that much. If you are going to pay a fullback I think it's better to have one who can also be a very effective short yardage runner.

John Kuhn of the Packers is a pretty good blocker, though not in the league of Leach, but he also has 8 rushing TDs the past 2 seasons while Leach has just 2 in his entire career. They are about equal as receivers. Kuhn is significantly cheaper than Leach. As great of a blocker as Leach is I'd rather have the short yardage ability of Kuhn and the contract.

They also give Kuhn the ball a lot more than Leach. Kuhn is well below average as an actual run blocker, he isn't what I'd call a true FB though. He is more of a hybrid in that system, so you can't compare them. Personally I'd take Leach blowing up huge holes for Rice to run into, with a good back up RB who can do an even better job than Kuhn at getting the short yards on a rookie contract.

**srobert96** · 05-29-2012, 04:20 PM

No. He is best blocking full back in the league without a doubt but the Ravens have a mediocre rushing attack with him. He has zero value outside of blocking the run. I personally don't think he and Ray Rice are complimentary. Rice is not a good power running back between the tackles. He is good but he is better in space. If they spread out the offense I believe Rice would be more effective running the ball. Too many little to no gain runs on 1st and 2nd down for an offense with a full back like Leach. With Rice as the running back I think the Ravens would be better using an H-back for someone that has value in the passing game.

**runrayrun27** · 05-29-2012, 04:27 PM

I find it funny how almost every discussion about a player on offence for us ends up being about Cam's offense and how someone isn't a good fit in it. Cam is a bad OC for this team and should have been fired. That was the worst decision they made this year IMO

**wickedsolo** · 05-29-2012, 04:31 PM

Again, it all goes back to the type of offense you operate out of. Kuhn works in the Packers' offense because he's a pretty versatile player and they're whole thing is about putting as much versatility onto the field at one time. With Kuhn on the field, you're guessing because he's a good runner, a good blocker, and a good receiver. With Leach on the field, you pretty much know what his role is going to be: blocking.

IMO, Marcel Reese is the ideal full back in the NFL right now in the league. He's an outstanding receiver and a good blocker. He can pass block as a TE and he can run block from the backfield.

**HoustonRaven** · 05-29-2012, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by srobert96

No. He is best blocking full back in the league without a doubt but the Ravens have a mediocre rushing attack with him. He has zero value outside of blocking the run. I personally don't think he and Ray Rice are complimentary. Rice is not a good power running back between the tackles. He is good but he is better in space. If they spread out the offense I believe Rice would be more effective running the ball. Too many little to no gain runs on 1st and 2nd down for an offense with a full back like Leach. With Rice as the running back I think the Ravens would be better using an H-back for someone that has value in the passing game.

With Leach in the backfield, Rice had his best year ever as a pro.

Hard to claim they are not complimentary.

**wickedsolo** · 05-29-2012, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by HoustonRaven

With Leach in the backfield, Rice had his best year ever as a pro.

Hard to claim they are not complimentary.

Well of course they are complimentary. Haha, what RB wouldn't be a compliment to arguably the best run blocking FB in the game?

**TheJoeFlaccoShow** · 05-29-2012, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by HoustonRaven

With Leach in the backfield, Rice had his best year ever as a pro.

Hard to claim they are not complimentary.

Not to mention the fact Rice averaged 4.7 YPC, tied with MJD for best in the league last year for RB's who carried a heavy load (275 plus carries).

Don't know how much more efficient you can get.

**srobert96** · 05-29-2012, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by HoustonRaven

With Leach in the backfield, Rice had his best year ever as a pro.

Hard to claim they are not complimentary.

How do you define best year? I would argue that he and the Ravens had a more productive rushing attack in 2009. He average 5.3 ypc vs 4.7 ypc this past year. He had 5 less TDs but McGahee picked up 12 as a backup running back. Statistically he may have higher numbers because he was on the field more but the Ravens offense was far less productive. Total team rushing yards was 2200 to 1996. Rushing TDs were 22 in 2009 vs 15 in 2011.

It was still a fullback led offense in 2009 but at least leRon had some value as an offensive weapon outside of just blocking. We have never seen Rice in an offense that utilizes TEs or H-backs instead of a FB.

**JustaslowZ06** · 05-29-2012, 04:51 PM

I've said it before, Rice IMO would be just as effective, maybe even more so, in a single back spread offense. He's just that type of back. He doesn't routinely follow Leach's blocks anyway. So all that being said, no I don't think we need him. Is it nice to have the best blocking FB in the league? Sure. But Rice, and our O-Line for that matter are built and structured for a singleback 3wide set. Add in we have 3 very apable receivers, and factoring in splitting Dickson out who's useless with his hand in the dirt anyway and I'd say he is expendable.

**srobert96** · 05-29-2012, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by TheJoeFlaccoShow

Not to mention the fact Rice averaged 4.7 YPC, tied with MJD for best in the league last year for RB's who carried a heavy load (275 plus carries).

Don't know how much more efficient you can get.

Not sure how the line for heavy load gets set at 275.

McCoy averaged 4.8 on 273 Carries.
McGahee averaged 4.8 on 249 carries.
Mathews and Forte averaged 4.9 on 200+ carries but missed some games.

More importantly the Ravens averaged 4.3 ypc which was the average ypc for all teams. 11 teams were higher and two teams were tied with the Ravens. Hardly a stellar rushing attack for a team that deploys the best blocking full back and a run first mentality.

**TheJoeFlaccoShow** · 05-29-2012, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by srobert96

Not sure how the line for heavy load gets set at 275.

McCoy averaged 4.8 on 273 Carries.
McGahee averaged 4.8 on 249 carries.
Mathews and Forte averaged 4.9 on 200+ carries but missed some games.

More importantly the Ravens averaged 4.3 ypc which was the average ypc for all teams. 11 teams were higher and two teams were tied with the Ravens. Hardly a stellar rushing attack for a team that deploys the best blocking full back and a run first mentality.

You were talking about Rice/Leach, not the entire team.

And you can't use backs with low attempts, skews the numbers. Sample size is too small.

Rice, MJD and McCoy were the 3 best who stayed healthy and played every week. Throw Willis in there too whatever, doesn't change the productivity of Leach/Rice.

And on 3rd down when the "other" backs are in the game dragging the team YPC down Leach is on the bench.

**leachisabeast** · 05-29-2012, 05:29 PM

We also had a MUCH better offensive line in 2009.

We had Jarred Gaither at left tackle for a good part of 2009 who was a very good left tackle no matter what anyone here says. Ben Grubbs and Yanda both had stellar years at guard as usual, Matt Birk was that bit younger and fresher and had a very solid year in his first season as a Raven. Oher was one of the best right tackles as a rookie. Rice didn't have as much attempts either, we where also playing the NFC North that year against some very weak run defensive teams. You cannot compare the two years

**srobert96** · 05-29-2012, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by TheJoeFlaccoShow

You were talking about Rice/Leach, not the entire team.

And you can't use backs with low attempts, skews the numbers. Sample size is too small.

Rice, MJD and McCoy were the 3 best who stayed healthy and played every week. Throw Willis in there too whatever, doesn't change the productivity of Leach/Rice.

And on 3rd down when the "other" backs are in the game dragging the team YPC down Leach is on the bench.

The thread is about the value of Leach so the team ypc is valid. The rushing offense was less productive in 2011 than in 2009. Rice averaged 5.3 and McGahee 5.0 with Leron as the fullback vs Rice 4.7 and Williams 4.1 with Leach.

**leachisabeast** · 05-29-2012, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by srobert96

The thread is about the value of Leach so the team ypc is valid. The rushing offense was less productive in 2011 than in 2009. Rice averaged 5.3 and McGahee 5.0 with Leron as the fullback vs Rice 4.7 and Williams 4.1 with Leach.

Read my comment above to explain why this was the case.

Honestly I can understand people questioning if we need him, and question his contract. But to say we'd be better off without him, or saying we need a new full back is absolutely crazy IMO. I wonder how our rushing offense would have looked in 09 with that Oline and Leach on the team.