Fast And Furious

[HoustonRaven]

No, it wasn't. And HERE.

What Stinger said.

[HoustonRaven]

Something that's important in all of this is the obvious media bias.

Not one MSM outlet has done any substantive reporting on this.

You bet your ass they'd be all over this story if it was W.

[Galen Sevinne]

you guys watch too much fox. this is such a political non-issue. The guys unfortunate death can't even be linked to the program. Its akin to law enforcement allowing small time drug dealers to continue to sell in order to understand the network better. Yes the program was a bad idea at worst and but if think Obama is behind this, you will be sorely disappointed. The only person who seems to really care is Issa. Outside of him, it only catnip for the LIVs.

Enjoy it while you can.

[StingerNLG]

you guys watch too much fox. this is such a political non-issue. The guys unfortunate death can't even be linked to the program. Its akin to law enforcement allowing small time drug dealers to continue to sell in order to understand the network better. Yes the program was a bad idea at worst and but if think Obama is behind this, you will be sorely disappointed. The only person who seems to really care is Issa. Outside of him, it only catnip for the LIVs.

Enjoy it while you can.

Wow.

And by the way, not that you libs care about rule of law or the death of an American, "The guys" name is Brian Terry. He was a border patrol agent. And even the Demos on the House Committee recognize that he was killed as a result of Fast and Furious.

Your ignorance on polling and some of your ridiculous other posts are usually knee-slappers. This makes me sick.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2

[NCRAVEN]

Wow.

And by the way, not that you libs care about rule of law or the death of an American, "The guys" name is Brian Terry. He was a border patrol agent. And even the Demos on the House Committee recognize that he was killed as a result of Fast and Furious.

Your ignorance on polling and some of your ridiculous other posts are usually knee-slappers. This makes me sick.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2

Not surprising he would come here with such BS. The reason the LIV thinks this is a non-issue is just becuase what Houston posted.

Personally, I don't think they would be stupid enough to put BHO's name on any documents. But you gotta wonder why he would pull this move when all that will happen to Holder is basically a slap on the wrist.

[StingerNLG]

Not surprising he would come here with such BS. The reason the LIV thinks this is a non-issue is just becuase what Houston posted.

Personally, I don't think they would be stupid enough to put BHO's name on any documents. But you gotta wonder why he would pull this move when all that will happen to Holder is basically a slap on the wrist.

Actually, I think this is coming with more than a slap on the wrist. It's not just withholding documents, Holder flat out lied to Congress on when he knew about F&F. And as people not named Roger Clements knows, lying to Congress is not a great idea.

What I still am trying to figure out is why would Obama, who said on camera he found out about F&F "in the news", all of a sudden inject an executive privilege that really don't even apply here if he is telling the truth? What are in these documents that the House Judiciary Committee cannot see? What are in these documents that the President doesn't want to be seen?

And anyone who thinks 1) the only person who cares about this is Rep. Issa, and 2) this is going to go away quickly, is beyond delusional into a whole different realm of Barack Obama sycophantism.

I'm pretty sure Brian Terry's parents care about this. They made that very clear in the statement they sent to the HJC today.

[StingerNLG]

BTW. Speaking of "This guy" as he is so lovingly referred to by lefties. This was the statement his family sent to Congress today.



But you know, his family is probably just on a witchhunt or something. In fact, he probably deserved it right?

[wickedsolo]

you guys watch too much fox. this is such a political non-issue. The guys unfortunate death can't even be linked to the program. Its akin to law enforcement allowing small time drug dealers to continue to sell in order to understand the network better. Yes the program was a bad idea at worst and but if think Obama is behind this, you will be sorely disappointed. The only person who seems to really care is Issa. Outside of him, it only catnip for the LIVs.

Enjoy it while you can.

1. I don't see how you can say that this is a political non-issue. If Obama chopped off on some authorizations that allowed US ATF agents to knowingly give semi & auto weapons to some of the most vicious and violent people in the world and it resulted in American casualties, that is a HUGE political issue. I don't see it as a make-or-break for Obama in the long run, but it really makes you question the decision making there. The fact that there is an obvious attempt at a cover-up here makes it even worse.

2. The Border Patrol agent's (his name was Brian Terry, btw) death was absolutely linked to this program because it was a gun that was authorized by this program to pass into the hands of the cartel that killed him. Ballistics already proved that much. Would he have been killed anyway? Sure, it's possible, but again that's not the point.

3. Mexican cartels are akin to small time drug dealers, huh? Wow. We're not talking about a bunch of thugs running around "beefing" over disputed territory or anything. These cartels are no different than Al Qaeda except they're better trained, better funded, and better organized. I wish I could tell you guys some of the things I've seen with these cartels, but just take it from me that many feel that they are the current biggest threat to national security right now. Drug trafficking is just the tip of the iceberg man. They are far, far, FAR more sophisticated than that and they are much more capable than most realize.

[Galen Sevinne]

I don't expect the others on this thread to accept truthful conclusions when the truth runs contrary to what they really, really want to be true. You seem capable of flexibilty in thought so I will address your incorrect understandings here.

1. I don't see how you can say that this is a political non-issue. If Obama chopped off on some authorizations that allowed US ATF agents to knowingly give semi & auto weapons to some of the most vicious and violent people in the world and it resulted in American casualties, that is a HUGE political issue. I don't see it as a make-or-break for Obama in the long run, but it really makes you question the decision making there. The fact that there is an obvious attempt at a cover-up here makes it even worse.

First of all there is no evidence that Obama did anything so, like the rest on this board, you can froth at the mouth at the chance that maybe "we got him" but that is a pipe dream.

In the end, Holder's statement in November 2011 rings with a reasoned explanantion to me:


Eleven months after the shooting, Holder told a Senate panel on Nov. 8, 2011, that "any instance of so-called gun walking is simply unacceptable" and that "regrettably, this tactic was used as part of Fast and Furious, which was launched to combat gun trafficking and violence on our Southwest border."

It was nothing more than a botched ATF program that at its roots, was a typical law enforcement strategy to understand the "systems" of criminality. It was botched but not illegal or unconstitutional or communist or marxist and in the end Holder and Obama, albeit black Americans, are still Americans. Not saying that you Wicked are doubting that just saying the unprecedented disrespect to these two offices is unparallelled to the point that my personal opinion has been and will continue to be that much of the anger in this country in the past 3.5 years has racism at its roots. I'm sure the LIVs will be aghast!

2. The Border Patrol agent's (his name was Brian Terry, btw) death was absolutely linked to this program because it was a gun that was authorized by this program to pass into the hands of the cartel that killed him. Ballistics already proved that much. Would he have been killed anyway? Sure, it's possible, but again that's not the point.

So not true! But watching Sean Hannity will certainly make you think so. Again, not saying you watch Hannity.

Read here:

http://www.politifact.com/texas/stat...istics-tests-/

By all accounts, Fast and Furious weapons were found at the scene of a U.S. agent's death. Dewhurst's campaign was emphatic, though, that ballistics tests confirmed that the weapons killed the agent. We found no information indicating that's so. Dewhurst's statement rates False.

Read the ballistics report here:

http://documents.latimes.com/ballistics-report-atf/

There is zero, ziltch, Haloti Ngata, evidence that a F&F weapon killed Brian Terry or ANY AMERICAN for that matter.

3. Mexican cartels are akin to small time drug dealers, huh? Wow. We're not talking about a bunch of thugs running around "beefing" over disputed territory or anything. These cartels are no different than Al Qaeda except they're better trained, better funded, and better organized. I wish I could tell you guys some of the things I've seen with these cartels, but just take it from me that many feel that they are the current biggest threat to national security right now. Drug trafficking is just the tip of the iceberg man. They are far, far, FAR more sophisticated than that and they are much more capable than most realize.

Nice try but I never made that comparison. I did compare the law strategies as similar in that law enforcement will overlook particular crimes in order to understand the general flow of that particular crime better and understand the systems of criminality better. Guns were allowed to flow across the border to better understand this flow. Was it a good idea? I am not in a position to truly make that judgement. I think I can say it was botched but the killing one border agent in a firefight will people trying to enter the country illegally is strong intellectual leap to end up with a wet dream over Obama's impeachment.

In the end, let's be honest with the facts and work from that point forward. If the rest want to get all ginned up on a chance to get the black men out of D.C., then by all means let them have their quitoxic play with Fox News. It just makes them look silly in the end.

[NCRAVEN]

I don't expect the others on this thread to accept truthful conclusions when the truth runs contrary to what they really, really want to be true. You seem capable of flexibilty in thought so I will address your incorrect understandings here.

Oh Galen, you sad sad little man. I love how you try to create arguments that don't exist. No one is really claiming BHO is part of this, they/I want to know why he invoked executive privilege of the documents if it's something that he had knowledge of when he said he didn't. Care to address that point?

First of all there is no evidence that Obama did anything so, like the rest on this board, you can froth at the mouth at the chance that maybe "we got him" but that is a pipe dream.

Everyone knows that this will drag on in the courts for so long it would be after the election, so no on is claiming "we got him". Another argument no one is making.

In the end, Holder's statement in November 2011 rings with a reasoned explanantion to me:

That's not saying much, you probably agree with Sheila Jackson Lee too that it's George Bush's fault

It was nothing more than a botched ATF program that at its roots, was a typical law enforcement strategy to understand the "systems" of criminality. It was botched but not illegal or unconstitutional or communist or marxist and in the end Holder and Obama, albeit black Americans, are still Americans. Not saying that you Wicked are doubting that just saying the unprecedented disrespect to these two offices is unparallelled to the point that my personal opinion has been and will continue to be that much of the anger in this country in the past 3.5 years has racism at its roots. I'm sure the LIVs will be aghast!

Wait.. who was it that was throwing claims of race baiting a few threads back?

Do you ever get tired of being predictable and using race when you have no leg to stand on?

So not true! But watching Sean Hannity will certainly make you think so. Again, not saying you watch Hannity.

Read here:
http://www.politifact.com/texas/stat...istics-tests-/

By all accounts, Fast and Furious weapons were found at the scene of a U.S. agent's death. Dewhurst's campaign was emphatic, though, that ballistics tests confirmed that the weapons killed the agent. We found no information indicating that's so. Dewhurst's statement rates False.

Read the ballistics report here:
http://documents.latimes.com/ballistics-report-atf/

There is zero, ziltch, Haloti Ngata, evidence that a F&F weapon killed Brian Terry or ANY AMERICAN for that matter.

It is true that ballistics were inconclusive, but it is true that weapons linked to the program were found at the scene, which means it's not a huge leap to conclude that the people who killed him at one point used these weapons, and maybe used them to kill him.

Nice try but I never made that comparison. I did compare the law strategies as similar in that law enforcement will overlook particular crimes in order to understand the general flow of that particular crime better and understand the systems of criminality better. Guns were allowed to flow across the border to better understand this flow. Was it a good idea? I am not in a position to truly make that judgement. I think I can say it was botched but the killing one border agent in a firefight will people trying to enter the country illegally is strong intellectual leap to end up with a wet dream over Obama's impeachment.

In the end, let's be honest with the facts and work from that point forward. If the rest want to get all ginned up on a chance to get the black men out of D.C., then by all means let them have their quitoxic play with Fox News. It just makes them look silly in the end.

Again, trying to argue a point no one is making but you? I wonder what you'd have to defend Obama if it weren't for the race card.

There was a Simpsons episode years and years and YEARS ago where Homer was on trial and when all appeared to be lost, he told his lawyer, "Quick play the race card" the lawyer said "but Homer your white" which Homer replies "play it, play it" as he shakes his fist. That is exactly what you remind me of Galen.. man I wish I could find that clip...

[AirFlacco]

Wow.

And by the way, not that you libs care about rule of law or the death of an American, "The guys" name is Brian Terry. He was a border patrol agent. And even the Demos on the House Committee recognize that he was killed as a result of Fast and Furious.

Your ignorance on polling and some of your ridiculous other posts are usually knee-slappers. This makes me sick.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2

Galen is just preaching the party line. A DEM congress woman said last night if not for that death we wouldn't even be hearing about it.

Galen slaps FOX w/o knowing what they say. They said last night that GOP could be making same mistake as they did in Monica Lewinsky in reaching too far to remove Clinton which didn't happen.

The night before the same people said GOP didn't want this as an issue because it was taking the
focus off the campaign and jobs/economy.


O'Rawley was critical of the investigations and a long time ago he said those who think
Global Warming is just a theory are idiots. That was right out of Galen's Taoist hand book.

Another DEM on FOX the guy with the suspenders all the time said it was nothing and the Congressional GOPs were asking for documents they had no business demanding, so as usual, Galen knows not what he speaks. He should be praising FOX for it's objectivity. You get none of that
with his MSNBC or the alphabet networks. And guess who Maher took his latest c-word shot at?

[AirFlacco]

It turns out yesterday that HOlder offered a last minute deal with the GOPs that he would just "brief" them on the missing documents if they marked their subpoenaes as met. They said no way.

So they went forth with the contempt. Funny how OBY said he knew nothing about it and then he
suddenly invokes executive privilege. Uh huh.

As for not having the right to ask for them as the liberal on Fox said, when you are investigating
something and you are the official investigator you can ask for anything you think will have facts
in the case. If it goes to court the judge will throw it out.

A special investigator has even more, let see how did Billick put it, oh yea lattitude, in demanding
stuff.

These liberals don't have a clue and keep dragging the country down.

[StingerNLG]

Houston, whenever Galen goes into "talking point" mode I realize that he has nothing. And so as a good liberal taking his marching orders, he reverts back to the two pathetic plays in the playbook. 1) Fox News, blah blah, 2) We're all racists. It's at that point that I stop taking him seriously. I laughed out loud though when he tried to actually use Politifact as a source.

No amount of race-baiting by Galen will ever obscure the fact that Eric Holder is withholding information. However it is also easy to show that Galen has not watched or paid attention to a single thing going on, and he's just regurgitating talking points. For example:

First of all there is no evidence that Obama did anything so, like the rest on this board, you can froth at the mouth at the chance that maybe "we got him" but that is a pipe dream.

It's the President that injected himself into this mess, not anyone else. In fact, had Galen bothered to watch the proceedings yesterday he would have known about the Gowdy Amendment. Rep. Gowdy put forth that the executive privilege order by the President actually does not apply to this situation BECAUSE no one has accused the President of being involved at this point in time. That Amendment passed of course, with all the Dems voting against. So now the reason that people are looking and questioning this move by Obama is because he decided to get involved. And it's a very legitimate question to ask WHY he did this, and what are in these documents that Obama doesn't want people to see.

There is zero, ziltch, Haloti Ngata, evidence that a F&F weapon killed Brian Terry or ANY AMERICAN for that matter.

In Galen's ignorance, he fails to understand that getting to this evidence and truth is the entire reason behind the investigation in the first place, and why the Judiciary Committee subpoenaed Holder's documents. Which of course has gotten to this point because, once again, Holder will not hand them over.

Everyone knows Brian Terry was killed as a result of these guns walking into the hands of the cartel. Only leftists who dehumanize Terry as just "This guy" don't want to understand that because it pulls away from the narrative that this is some witch hunt. Which is also funny because if Eric Holder had just given the Committee what it asked for, there wouldn't have been all this.

Again, Galen can run with the sad and pathetic liberal meme that everything against Obama is because he's black. In lefty circles right now, this is really all they have to cling to at the moment. Since independent thinking people reject that crap outright, it's not a big deal. If he thinks it's going away anytime soon, let him live in that fantasy land.

[Galen Sevinne]

Galen is just preaching the party line. A DEM congress woman said last night if not for that death we wouldn't even be hearing about it.

Galen slaps FOX w/o knowing what they say. They said last night that GOP could be making same mistake as they did in Monica Lewinsky in reaching too far to remove Clinton which didn't happen.

The night before the same people said GOP didn't want this as an issue because it was taking the
focus off the campaign and jobs/economy.


O'Rawley was critical of the investigations and a long time ago he said those who think
Global Warming is just a theory are idiots. That was right out of Galen's Taoist hand book.

Another DEM on FOX the guy with the suspenders all the time said it was nothing and the Congressional GOPs were asking for documents they had no business demanding, so as usual, Galen knows not what he speaks. He should be praising FOX for it's objectivity. You get none of that
with his MSNBC or the alphabet networks. And guess who Maher took his latest c-word shot at?

well, if that is true kudos for Fox for not eating the catnip. I saw a clip of Hannity though with his typical absolute look of perplexity over how something so "unamerican" can happen.

MSNBC isn't wasting time covering a nonstory.

[NCRAVEN]

well, if that is true kudos for Fox for not eating the catnip. I saw a clip of Hannity though with his typical absolute look of perplexity over how something so "unamerican" can happen.

MSNBC isn't wasting time covering a nonstory.

Are you seriously trying to pass MSDNC off as a credible new source?

[Galen Sevinne]

Oh Galen, you sad sad little man. I love how you try to create arguments that don't exist. No one is really claiming BHO is part of this, they/I want to know why he invoked executive privilege of the documents if it's something that he had knowledge of when he said he didn't. Care to address that point?

I think it is funny and this should be referred to as "NC Think" for now on because you do it to a nauseating level.

Let's diagram the logic of "NC Think" so we all are onboard:

Step One: We will call it Setting up the rational argument

ex.

No one is really claiming BHO is part of this

Step Two: We will call it Inserting the irrational contradiction (catnip)

ex.

I want to know why he invoked executive privilege of the documents if it's something that he had knowledge of when he said he didn't

In other words, No one is saying Obama is involved, except there must be some Obama conspiracy because (just like every President prior to him) he is invoking executive privilege.

other examples:

I have nothing against gays, I just don't want them to get married
I believe women should be treated equally, I just don't want them making decisions about their reproductive healthcare.
I believe Obama was born in America; I just don't understand why he won't show his birth certificate for the third time?



Again, NC Think:

Step 1: Setting up the rational argument

It is true that ballistics were inconclusive,

Step 2: Insert the irrational catnip

but it is true that weapons linked to the program were found at the scene, which means it's not a huge leap to conclude that the people who killed him at one point used these weapons, and maybe used them to kill him.

In other words; There was no proof these guns killed any Americans but if we make the suggestion enough times, LIVS will believe it.

I'm really am a logical independent thinker; I just like to believe everything that is anti-Obama administration. I like round holes; I just need to squeeze this square peg in though

[NCRAVEN]

I know I’ve borrowed this quote before but it still cracks me up “Hey look, projection”

Lets’ review Galen's projection and attempts to try to ridicule when backed into a corner

Step One: We will call it Setting up the rational argument

ex 1.

In other words, No one is saying Obama is involved, except there must be some Obama conspiracy because (just like every President prior to him) he is invoking executive privilege

Nope, not what I did. I wanna no why he claimed executive privilege, when that is to protect the President, not the attorney general.

Ex 2.

I have nothing against gays, I just don't want them to get married
I believe women should be treated equally, I just don't want them making decisions about their reproductive healthcare.

1. I’ve never said either of those
2. I am not taking the bait to go off topic.
3. So instead of race, you go to gender and sexual preference. Sad, so sad this is all you have.

In other words; There was no proof these guns killed any Americans but if we make the suggestion enough times, LIVS will believe it.

I'm really am a logical independent thinker; I just like to believe everything that is anti-Obama administration. I like round holes; I just need to squeeze this square peg in though

Rule #1 from liberal playbook, change the subject and attack (surprised you didn’t throw race in this one).

Tell me G, what’s it like to be so pathetically predictable and figured out by a couple of guys on message board?

[Galen Sevinne]

Houston, whenever Galen goes into "talking point" mode I realize that he has nothing. And so as a good liberal taking his marching orders, he reverts back to the two pathetic plays in the playbook. 1) Fox News, blah blah, 2) We're all racists. It's at that point that I stop taking him seriously. I laughed out loud though when he tried to actually use Politifact as a source.

No amount of race-baiting by Galen will ever obscure the fact that Eric Holder is withholding information. However it is also easy to show that Galen has not watched or paid attention to a single thing going on, and he's just regurgitating talking points. For example:



It's the President that injected himself into this mess, not anyone else. In fact, had Galen bothered to watch the proceedings yesterday he would have known about the Gowdy Amendment. Rep. Gowdy put forth that the executive privilege order by the President actually does not apply to this situation BECAUSE no one has accused the President of being involved at this point in time. That Amendment passed of course, with all the Dems voting against. So now the reason that people are looking and questioning this move by Obama is because he decided to get involved. And it's a very legitimate question to ask WHY he did this, and what are in these documents that Obama doesn't want people to see.




In Galen's ignorance, he fails to understand that getting to this evidence and truth is the entire reason behind the investigation in the first place, and why the Judiciary Committee subpoenaed Holder's documents. Which of course has gotten to this point because, once again, Holder will not hand them over.

Everyone knows Brian Terry was killed as a result of these guns walking into the hands of the cartel. Only leftists who dehumanize Terry as just "This guy" don't want to understand that because it pulls away from the narrative that this is some witch hunt. Which is also funny because if Eric Holder had just given the Committee what it asked for, there wouldn't have been all this.

Again, Galen can run with the sad and pathetic liberal meme that everything against Obama is because he's black. In lefty circles right now, this is really all they have to cling to at the moment. Since independent thinking people reject that crap outright, it's not a big deal. If he thinks it's going away anytime soon, let him live in that fantasy land.

Is this a hybrid form of "NC Think"? I think so in that the premise that is set up is completely disassembled with what follows with no apparent awareness by the author.

Watch how Stinger does it:

1. Set up a premise:

It's at that point that I stop taking him seriously

2. disassemble the premise of not taking G7 seriously with an by demonstrating an infatuation with G7 by mentioning him directly 6 times in one post and make the entire post about G7. I mean c'mon he even brought HR into the conversation for support.

Truly Stinger, I am glad to see you have moved out of your "one sentence wonder" posting but your unrestrained anger toward me and "liberals" in general really just makes me think I am renting a fully furnished two-bedroom apartment with a hot tub and a cooler of craft brews in your head. Don't give me such power in your life as I already suffer from a grandiose ego.

[NCRAVEN]

Actually, I think this is coming with more than a slap on the wrist. It's not just withholding documents, Holder flat out lied to Congress on when he knew about F&F. And as people not named Roger Clements knows, lying to Congress is not a great idea.

The problem is, if /when found in contempt who is going to charge him with anything, the department he's in charge of?

[HoustonRaven]

Clearly, if you're against giving guns to Mexican drug lords, you're a racist.