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  1. #13
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    Re: For those counting out Doss already...



    This is great news, he must be playing at around 210-215 lbs now, and at 6'2 that is perfect size for a possession receiver. A lot of people wanted us to take guys like Mohammed Sanu or Nick Toon in the 2nd-4th rounds, however Tandon Doss was just as good as both of them coming out of college, with arguably better speed, and better hands than both. Doss was a 2nd rounder on many boards coming out of college too. Like Wicked said, he could definitely be an effective #3 guy for us, and could potentially replace Boldin long term.

    As for the busts labels. I personally consider 4th rounders to be the maximum round where you can pretty much consider someone a bust. For example, if Gino starts in 2013 at center for us, and plays really bad, I am sure a lot of guys around here will jump at the conclusion that he would be a bust. I think it depends on what position it was when you're talking 4th round busts. I think there is barely any expectation for 4th round QB's, pass rushers, and corners, especially in their first few years, but I think the expectation raises for positions like WR, offensive linemen (not left tackles), safeties, etc.




  2. #14

    Re: For those counting out Doss already...

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    As for the busts labels. I personally consider 4th rounders to be the maximum round where you can pretty much consider someone a bust. For example, if Gino starts in 2013 at center for us, and plays really bad, I am sure a lot of guys around here will jump at the conclusion that he would be a bust. I think it depends on what position it was when you're talking 4th round busts. I think there is barely any expectation for 4th round QB's, pass rushers, and corners, especially in their first few years, but I think the expectation raises for positions like WR, offensive linemen (not left tackles), safeties, etc.
    good point, position probably does play a big factor in those fringe rounds.
    -JAB




  3. #15
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    Re: For those counting out Doss already...

    I am really rooting for Doss to solidify his place in this offense. Ever since he broke up that attempted murder at 5 guys, I've been a big fan of his.




  4. #16
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    Re: Doss Fully Recovered and 10 pounds heavier

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I don't think a 4th rounder can be a bust, per se, but there has been some high expectations on the kid considering it's been reported about how good his hands are.
    On principle I don't agree. Why (?) are only 1st and 2nd round choices busts? IMO even a 6th round draft choice (Harewood) can be a bust.
    Wasn't Brady a 6th? IMO any pick can be a "steal" or a "bust" regardless of round picked... Bc




  5. #17
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    Re: Doss Fully Recovered and 10 pounds heavier

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Id say top 4 rounds you have to have some expectation for them. 1st being a future star, 2/3 being a future good player, and 3/4 being future contributors, each GM being a little different.
    True. You can actually read what DeCosta had to say about expectations for players they scout and draft, and how they categorize them -- which isn't as much a system of placing players into rounds as it is a system of placing players into roles within the Ravens style of play. Tony did a nice interview two years ago with DeCosta and it got pretty specific.

    TL: Paul Kruger is a player who didn’t see the field much in ’09 and I’ve heard him referred to as a developmental player. Do you ever consciously draft players based on projected ceilings knowing that they may take a year or two to develop?

    ED: Our grading system is based on several different levels. The first level basically asks the question “Is the player a Pro-bowler, a starter, a backup, or a free-agent camp guy?”

    The second level breaks the starter and backup categories (the two groups most players fall into) into different levels (i.e. first-year starter like Michael Oher, second-year starter like Ray Rice, potential possible starter over time like Dwan Edwards or Casey Rabach, backup for the Ravens like Haruki Nakamura, or backup for the league).

    Our scouts are required to PROJECT players based on their college experience, personality, and background. Unlike a lot of teams, we don’t rank players based on round we would select, we rank players based on role both short-term and long-term. This is a significant difference.

    So yes, we draft players with lots different levels of expectations. We don’t expect every player to start day one or even, in some cases, to ever be a starter. We take a more macro approach aimed at building the best possible team. That entails sometimes taking a lesser player with a great makeup who will be a great backup rather than drafting a really good player with a poor makeup who will be a terrible team guy or bad backup.
    They tend to tweak their approach from year to year -- for instance, they've put more emphasis on evaluating small-school prospects this year -- but the general philosophy stays the same. You can assume that Doss was seen as a guy who would take time to develop and maybe contribute as a kick returner in the meantime.




  6. #18

    Re: For those counting out Doss already...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Cactus View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised to see Jones start the season as the #3 but then get benched after a critical dropped pass at some point in favor of the sure-handed Doss.
    Unfortunately, if Jones goes into the season as the third WR, I have a feeling that this is how it will shake out. Jones will drop passes. Doss won't. Flacco will still give Jones chances, but will start looking for Doss. Now, Flacco did continue to look for Torrey. The question may be whether or not it would be different for Jones. However, there is evidence that Flacco likes throwing to certain guys and the constant theme is consistent hands (Mason, Washington, Heap, Pitta).
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  7. #19
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    Re: Doss Fully Recovered and 10 pounds heavier

    Quote Originally Posted by BcRaven View Post
    On principle I don't agree. Why (?) are only 1st and 2nd round choices busts? IMO even a 6th round draft choice (Harewood) can be a bust.
    Wasn't Brady a 6th? IMO any pick can be a "steal" or a "bust" regardless of round picked... Bc
    You must have a pretty long list of steals and busts then. Last time I heard the stats less than 20% of 4th round picks become starters and most don't make it past year 4 in the NFL. I couldn't tell you what years those stats were taken from but it's a topic around every draft because a lot of teams trade those picks to move around in the draft. If you look at all the kids that get drafted and sign as undrafted free agents a large number have to also leave the league every year.

    4th through 7th rounders who actually stick around for several year is a lot bigger news than those who don't. I liked the Doss pick and hope he does stay here for a while but if he does get cut I just can't see that as him being a bust.
    He Who Dares.....Wins




  8. #20
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    Re: Doss Fully Recovered and 10 pounds heavier

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    You must have a pretty long list of steals and busts then. Last time I heard the stats less than 20% of 4th round picks become starters and most don't make it past year 4 in the NFL. I couldn't tell you what years those stats were taken from but it's a topic around every draft because a lot of teams trade those picks to move around in the draft. If you look at all the kids that get drafted and sign as undrafted free agents a large number have to also leave the league every year.

    4th through 7th rounders who actually stick around for several year is a lot bigger news than those who don't. I liked the Doss pick and hope he does stay here for a while but if he does get cut I just can't see that as him being a bust.

    I think it's fair to say that terms like bust and steal fall into the realm of subjective expectations, not objective achievements. These terms remind me of some other subjective ideas -- like "#1 receiver" or "skill player" that are thrown around as if they are concrete ideas, but are really not.

    Objectively, we can count the number of starts a player has...or if he's on the active roster at all...or how many special teams tackles he has. But there is no way of defining "bust" in that way.

    To agree on if a player is a bust you have to agree on on what you had expected from him.

    There have been a bunch of relatively high picks who never seem to stay on the field and eventually wash out -- your Dan Cody, Devard Darling, David Pittman types. I don't really seem them as busts, but as developmental players who don't develop. Even a Mark Clayton I would not call a bust -- he too struggled with injuries here and in St. Louis.

    If you expect every pick to work out, then I suppose you can call these guys busts.

    Oniel Cousins was a developmental lineman who did nothing for the Ravens, but then he hooked on with the Browns. I am reluctant to call him a bust, too.

    But then you have lower-round guys like Marcus Smith or Gerome Sapp or Lamont Brightful or Justin Green who I would call busts because they didn't even get close to developing. I would bet a lot of other people would not term these guys busts because of low expectations, but to not even compete to me makes you a busted pick.

    A lot of those same people would call Travis Taylor a bust. I wouldn't necessarily though. He did compete, just not anywhere near the level of expectation we had for him.




  9. #21
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    Re: Doss Fully Recovered and 10 pounds heavier

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    You must have a pretty long list of steals and busts then. Last time I heard the stats less than 20% of 4th round picks become starters and most don't make it past year 4 in the NFL. I couldn't tell you what years those stats were taken from but it's a topic around every draft because a lot of teams trade those picks to move around in the draft. If you look at all the kids that get drafted and sign as undrafted free agents a large number have to also leave the league every year.

    4th through 7th rounders who actually stick around for several year is a lot bigger news than those who don't. I liked the Doss pick and hope he does stay here for a while but if he does get cut I just can't see that as him being a bust.
    Damn you GOTA...LOL ! Well, my list is as long as the time my sister-in-law has been out of work. However, IMO if Doss does get cut (which I really hope he doesn't) then he is a "bust." After all, didn't Flacco personally name him prior to the 2011 draft? We fans cannot just excuse those 4th through 7th round picks that don't make it. Teams that thrive find jewels in late round picks, and (thank you Ozzie) in UDFAs... Bc




  10. #22

    Re: Doss Fully Recovered and 10 pounds heavier

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    Can a 4th round pick be a bust? Doss has to beat the odds to have a career longer than a couple of years. Even if he doesn't make the team this year you can't really call him a bust.
    The average career length of a 4th round draft pick is 5.3 years. If Doss got cut after just one season, he would be a colossal bust. You keep circulating these factually incorrect statistics about draft picks relating to their career lengths and career starts.




  11. #23

    Re: Doss Fully Recovered and 10 pounds heavier

    Quote Originally Posted by BcRaven View Post
    On principle I don't agree. Why (?) are only 1st and 2nd round choices busts? IMO even a 6th round draft choice (Harewood) can be a bust.
    Wasn't Brady a 6th? IMO any pick can be a "steal" or a "bust" regardless of round picked... Bc
    Correct statement. A sixth round pick can very easily be a bust. The average career length for a 6th rounder is just shy of 4 years. I don't have all the data in front of me from my research, but I also believe that the average 6th rounder starts somewhere in the 18-20 game range over their career. So if you have a 6th rounder like Harewood who never makes an NFL roster, he's definitely a big bust.




  12. #24
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    Re: Doss Fully Recovered and 10 pounds heavier

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    Correct statement. A sixth round pick can very easily be a bust. The average career length for a 6th rounder is just shy of 4 years. I don't have all the data in front of me from my research, but I also believe that the average 6th rounder starts somewhere in the 18-20 game range over their career. So if you have a 6th rounder like Harewood who never makes an NFL roster, he's definitely a big bust.
    Is that the average games a 6th rounder starts, or is that of 6th rounders who make a team, starts 18 -20 games?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




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