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  1. #97
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    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?



    Flacco will not improve.

    He looks "sharp" every offseason, as much as you try, you cannot shine a turd.

    Everyone raves about how great he played in
    The AFCC, the fact of the matter is that he did not play great at all. Terrible footwork, pocket presence, holding on to ball to long, several bonehead throws including the awful Spikes pick, and another terrible pass right before the missed field goal. Caldwell is not going to fix Flacco, or make him any better, he has reached his ceiling.

    Flacco is a average mediocre Quarterback and that's all he will ever be.




  2. #98
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    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post
    People say stuff like that on this board all the time. "Brees and Rivers didn't put up massive numbers under Cam, so Cam sucks as an OC." It's a really stupid argument, and I'd like to confront it. The misinformation in that argument should not be allowed to stand.

    Drew Brees was drafted by the Chargers in 2001. His rookie year they Mike Riley, with Norv as OC. Doug Flutie was the started; Brees threw 27 passes. Marty and Cam came along the next season, so Brees was under Cam as a 2nd-year player. Brees played under Cam for 5 seasons, 2002-2005. He took over as the starting QB his first season under Cam, 2002, then missed 5 games and had a crappy season in 2003 (prompting the Chargers to draft Rivers), then made the Pro Bowl in 2004. So under Cam, Brees went from a young QB who had never been the starter, to an established Pro Bowl QB.

    Here are Brees' stats under Cam:
    Code:
    Att   Yards   TD   INT  Y/A
    526   3284    17   16   6 2
    356   2108    11   15   5.9
    400   3159    27    7   7.9*
    500   3576    24   15   7.2
    Except for the blip in 2003 when he missed 5 games (2nd line above), this is nice steady growth for a young QB. Brees took a small step back in efficiency from 2004 to 2005, but 2005 is still a very solid season.

    So what happened when Brees got to Sean Payton in New Orleans? Check out his pass attempts:
    Code:
    Year   Att
    2006   554
    2007   652
    2008   635
    They just threw the ball a lot more. Brees was not a ton more efficient when he got to New Orleans. His yards-per-pass-attempt in 2006 was just a smidge above his ypa in his Pro Bowl season with Cam in 2004: 8.0 to 7.9. His TD pct was actually lower his first two seasons in New Orleans than it had been his last season under Cam: 4.7 and 4.3 in 2006-7, vs 4.8 in 2005. Even when his TD pctg started to climb in New Orleans, it still was not as high as in his best season under Cam (6.8 in 2004). It was not until this past season that Brees finally posted a TD pct in New Orleans that beat his best number under Cam.

    I don't mean to belittle Sean Payton or Drew Brees. Brees is a magnificent QB, and Payton is an aggressive, creative OC. But it's a volume passing attack. Brees puts up big numbers because they throw the ball a ton. Their run/pass ration is heavy to the pass. The Ravens believe in a balanced offense, and their run/pass ratio reflects that. (Which makes sense when you have Ray Rice.)

    When you look at Brees under Cam vs Brees under Payton, the difference is that under Cam Brees was a young QB being groomed into a regular starter and Pro Bowler, vs under Payton Brees was already an established Pro Bowler so they opened up the offense.

    Same pattern for Rivers. Rivers only played under Cam for 3 seasons, 2004-6. And Brees was the starter for those first two seasons. Rivers developed under Cam and made the Pro Bowl as a first-time starter in 2006. Rivers continued to grow after Cam left, and has become one of the most dangerous and productive passers in the league. That's a testament to Rivers; but it doesn't mean Cam was holding him back. In fact it looks like a pretty smooth progression, from not starting his rookie season to consistently posting passer ratings in the hundreds, other than a small regression the year after Cam left.

    When I think of OC's who hold back QBs and retard their growth, I usually worry about the coach ruining the QB. I think there are a ton of QBs who never reach their potential, because they get bad coaching in the NFL. You see this all the time: guys who get shell-shocked as rookies, and never fulfilled their potential. Joey Harrington. David Carr. Alex Smith, although he had a good season last year.

    When you look at Brees and Rivers, they clearly were not "ruined" by Cam. If anything, the opposite. The more reasonable interpretation is that Brees and Rivers built a good foundation of fundamentals their first few seasons under Cam, which they were able to continue to build upon as mature QBs, into consistent Pro-Bowl and All-Pro type performances.
    I don't think many are claiming that Brees or Rivers were ruined by Cam, but it is a fact that they thrived in other offensive schemes after working under Cam for a few years.

    I've stated it several times and I'll say it again, Cam's offense is centered around the RB. Period. End of story. He has ever only had 2 receivers go over 1000 yards since becoming the OC in San Diego in 2002 and that was Derrick Mason in Baltimore and Antonio Gates in San Diego. It's extremely difficult for a QB to put up gaudy numbers in his version of the Air Coryell offense because it is RB-centric, whereas Norv's version is very QB-centric.

    That's why many who are essentially on the anti-Cam wagon are interested in seeing what Flacco can do with a more innovative and modern offensive coordinator.
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  3. #99
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    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heap86 View Post
    Flacco will not improve.

    He looks "sharp" every offseason, as much as you try, you cannot shine a turd.

    Everyone raves about how great he played in
    The AFCC, the fact of the matter is that he did not play great at all. Terrible footwork, pocket presence, holding on to ball to long, several bonehead throws including the awful Spikes pick, and another terrible pass right before the missed field goal. Caldwell is not going to fix Flacco, or make him any better, he has reached his ceiling.

    Flacco is a average mediocre Quarterback and that's all he will ever be.
    Great post dude.
    Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer.

    -Arnold Schwarzenegger


    My RSR Blog:
    http://russellstreetreport.com/author/paullukoskie/

    Check out Fatherhood Rules - a blog site dedicated to sports, food, music, movies, and politics.
    http://fatherhoodrules.com




  4. #100

    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I don't think many are claiming that Brees or Rivers were ruined by Cam, but it is a fact that they thrived in other offensive schemes after working under Cam for a few years.

    I've stated it several times and I'll say it again, Cam's offense is centered around the RB. Period. End of story. He has ever only had 2 receivers go over 1000 yards since becoming the OC in San Diego in 2002 and that was Derrick Mason in Baltimore and Antonio Gates in San Diego. It's extremely difficult for a QB to put up gaudy numbers in his version of the Air Coryell offense because it is RB-centric, whereas Norv's version is very QB-centric.

    That's why many who are essentially on the anti-Cam wagon are interested in seeing what Flacco can do with a more innovative and modern offensive coordinator.
    What makes this worse for Flacco, in a sense (Because the W's have come), is that the front office's philosophy falls more in line with Cameron's.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  5. #101
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    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post
    Here are Brees' stats under Cam:
    Code:
    Att   Yards   TD   INT  Y/A
    526   3284    17   16   6 2
    356   2108    11   15   5.9
    400   3159    27    7   7.9*
    500   3576    24   15   7.2
    Except for the blip in 2003 when he missed 5 games (2nd line above), this is nice steady growth for a young QB. Brees took a small step back in efficiency from 2004 to 2005, but 2005 is still a very solid season.

    So what happened when Brees got to Sean Payton in New Orleans? Check out his pass attempts:
    Code:
    Year   Att
    2006   554
    2007   652
    2008   635
    Hey man, I never said he was bad under Cam, he was good, but I stand by my point that he didn't ever put up huge numbers under Cam Cameron either. Those first four years are so similar to Joe Flacco, and arguably worse (not saying they are bad stats for a young QB). Facts are that Cam isn't creative enough, and runs a conservative offense that as Wicked said favours the RB. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that as long as we continue to win, and it is clear that we can even get to the SB and possibly win it playing this way, as was evident in the play offs this year. However if you want to see Flacco put up all those big numbers that other ''elite'' QB's are putting up, then the chances are it wont be happening any time soon with Cam as the OC.

    It's also not all to do with passing attempts either. Cam doesn't design creative enough plays for the QB to be as effective as others.




  6. #102
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    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    What makes this worse for Flacco, in a sense (Because the W's have come), is that the front office's philosophy falls more in line with Cameron's.
    But there isn't much wrong with his philosophy either as long as you are winning games. Our offense isn't exactly terrible or even bad under Cam, it's arguably just above average. His philosophy can only work with good defensive teams with a talented RB, put him on a team like Miami and you will see a losing team... oh wait he already did that.

    If it works for us that's cool with me. I'd rather us go and have another 4 12-4 seasons and win a SB in the process then go 9-7 and miss the play offs a bunch of times because we want to see Flacco throw for over 4000 yards, but go through the growing pains of a bunch of bad games and picks along the way.




  7. #103
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    Jan 2012
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    Cockeysville, MD
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    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    What makes this worse for Flacco, in a sense (Because the W's have come), is that the front office's philosophy falls more in line with Cameron's.
    This is why Cam has a job with the Ravens as long as he wants one.




  8. #104

    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I don't think many are claiming that Brees or Rivers were ruined by Cam, but it is a fact that they thrived in other offensive schemes after working under Cam for a few years.

    I've stated it several times and I'll say it again, Cam's offense is centered around the RB. Period. End of story. He has ever only had 2 receivers go over 1000 yards since becoming the OC in San Diego in 2002 and that was Derrick Mason in Baltimore and Antonio Gates in San Diego. It's extremely difficult for a QB to put up gaudy numbers in his version of the Air Coryell offense because it is RB-centric, whereas Norv's version is very QB-centric.

    That's why many who are essentially on the anti-Cam wagon are interested in seeing what Flacco can do with a more innovative and modern offensive coordinator.
    ditto... i look at the pass attempts and sure they went up, but so did his yards per att a lot more. he had one season of 7.9 and ended with some regression (passer rating, yds/att), probowler or not they werent getting the most out of him consistently. he goes to NO and they design a system for him and hes perennially a probowler and has 4 seasons of over 7.9 (7.98, 7.98, 8.54, 8.34), which is impressive when considering how much more he was throwing. what most of us have said around here is that theyve never thrown for 4k yards in that system, which they didnt, not that they had a horrible passer rating or yds/att, just that they did more without cam, in Rivers case not even switching systems he saw his completion percentage rise 5%, when in a more passer friendly version. Brees' first year in NO he threw the ball 50 more times than his last in SD yet totaled 900 more yards. Thats telling of a system not designed for large output.
    -JAB




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