If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

**Jayc00** · 06-28-2012, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

This team has ranked 18th, 13th, 22nd, and 15th in total offense during Cam's tenure. There are better stats to judge offensive performance than total offense, but we've been bad in pretty much every one of them each year except rushing YPC in 09.

Not to mention the results on the field--even if our offense has had some good games, the unit has been terribly inconsistent and can anyone really argue that it has improved on the whole over the last 4 years? I would submit that the peak of our offense was in 09 and we haven't even been close since then. Even then, in our best year, we got shut down in the playoffs by a bad Colts defense.

As long as Harbaugh is making the playoffs his job won't be in jeopardy. As long as his job isn't in jeopardy, he will not fire Cam Cameron, the man who gave him his first real coaching gig. We've already seen that this team is comfortable with offensive mediocrity. Every bad offensive year and every bad offensive game, it's excuses, excuses--"there was a lockout, we lost our DC, it's the players' fault." How much more evidence do you need?

And about why winning teams make coaching changes--sometimes, teams want to get better. They can't get always get better with the leadership they have. There's always adversity in change, but you can't grow otherwise.

I agree with you, but again it just wouldn't make sense to change OC's when the offense would have less than a month to learn the system, or when we lost a DC that would be too much termoil and a risk. Look at my avatar...I can't stand Cam, but the last two years it just didn't make sense to get rid of him. It's not about Harbaugh firing Cam like I said if Steve wants him gone than he's gone.

**pslholder96** · 06-28-2012, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by JAB1985

I would have said the same before hearing he was an egomaniac and kind of an asshole to the FO. Im not sure but i thought he burned some bridges and our FO was kind of happy to see him go. Might be wrong about the last part.

This!!!!!

**GOTA** · 06-28-2012, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by steelerhater

Steve would have to replace Harbaugh if he wanted to get rid of Cameron. That whole lockout and continuity thing was just made up by the fans. Cameron is Harbaugh's guy and he'll stick by him 'til the end.

It sure looks that way. I thought there was no way Cam would be back this year. After that happened I'm leaning more towards your thinking on this.

**Ravenswintitle** · 06-28-2012, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by GOTA

It sure looks that way. I thought there was no way Cam would be back this year. After that happened I'm leaning more towards your thinking on this.

I also am convinced that some of the approach is more to Harb's philosophy, let's face it he approves the gameplans. He wants to play conservatively at times and given his success it's hard to argue

**BigPlayReceiver** · 06-28-2012, 09:05 AM

OS '11 was the time to get Cammie out of here.

Couldn't do it in OS '12, b/c of how close to the SB we were, and you don't change OC's going into your franchise QB's contract year.

Won't do it in OS '13, b/c you don't want to absorb the probable risk of offensive regression that your $80-90M QB may suffer as he learns a new system.

Tough decisions (putting myself in Harbs' shoes in this case) almost often become tougher the longer they are avoided...so I think we are stuck with Cammie until at least the off-season of 2014.

**seraph** · 06-28-2012, 09:56 AM

LOL Cam is staying. Why would people want Caldwell to take over anything? Everything that he has been apart of was fail
(LOL at Wake Forest football).

**flraven** · 06-28-2012, 09:59 AM

How about that offensive genius from Minnesota, Brian Billick. What's he doing these days?

**Terpsfan82** · 06-28-2012, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by flraven

How about that offensive genius from Minnesota, Brian Billick. What's he doing these days?

Polishing his Super Bowl ring.

**GOTA** · 06-28-2012, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle

I also am convinced that some of the approach is more to Harb's philosophy, let's face it he approves the gameplans. He wants to play conservatively at times and given his success it's hard to argue

What's the cause of that? It sure looks like a general lack of faith in Flacco. The fear is that opening things up will lead to mistakes. Each year I hope that changes but so far that hasn't been the case.

**steelerhater** · 06-28-2012, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle

I also am convinced that some of the approach is more to Harb's philosophy, let's face it he approves the gameplans. He wants to play conservatively at times and given his success it's hard to argue

I'm not so sure about that. There've been several times where Harbaugh stated that the offense has to get better, while admitting that he has never attended an offensive meeting. I'm not sure that he has any idea what Cameron's gameplan consists of. Its one thing for a head coach to let his assistants coach, but when something isn't working, he should become involved. Over the last 4 years, the Ravens defense has taken us to the playoffs. If the defense slips this year due to Suggs injury or loss of veterans, does anyone really think that the offense can pick up the slack?

**steelerhater** · 06-28-2012, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by The Excellector

There seems to be some air that needs to be cleared here. Let's start with Jim Caldwell. Jim Caldwell not only worked with Peyton Manning, but laid the ground work for Brad Johnson. Although, neither he nor Tony Dungy were able to truly enjoy the fruits of their labor, in that situation.

Yes, Jim Caldwell does have experience calling plays and did so as the Head Coach of Indianapolis, at least, last season.

The system that Indianapolis runs has similarities to what Baltimore runs. The differences are that Indianapolis' system 'was' more pass heavy, and that they used more quick slants and 'ins' to set up their deep passing. The second difference that I mentioned is something that some fans feel has been missing here.

The relationship between Cam Cameron and John Harbaugh is overblown. First off, Steve Bisciotti and Ozzie Newsome have both made it clear that they prefer to win with emphasis on defense and running the football, rather than becoming a pass heavy team. That is a call that is coming from the top fellas.

Second, if Norv Turner hadn't been retained by San Diego, the Ravens would have seriously pursued him to be the Offensive Coordinator here. There was a lot going on with teams giving/withholding permission for other teams to speak to their guys. They wouldn't have had to go through that with Turner, but Turner was kept. They didn't have to go through that with Caldwell and that is how they were able to bring him in.

Personally, I do think that Caldwell is the bridge between Cameron's time and the new time on the horizon. Now, they don't have to search for anybody if they want to let Cameron go. They have someone within the organization who represents a similar fit to the offensive system they want to run.

Nothing wrong with that, but when we do pass, let's have some decent plays. When there's an obvious blitz, let Flacco change the play. When the line is struggling to stop the blitz, let's employ some quick slants, screens, etc. to counter the blitz. Cameron seems to just run his gameplan and if it doesn't work, then he blames the players. Sure, the players do drop passes, miss assignments, etc, but it would be nice to have an offensive coordinator who actually has a feel for what's going on in the game. It always seems that, as the game progresses, the other teams make better adjustments on defense than we make on offense.

**bmorecareful** · 06-28-2012, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by steelerhater

I'm not so sure about that. There've been several times where Harbaugh stated that the offense has to get better, while admitting that he has never attended an offensive meeting. I'm not sure that he has any idea what Cameron's gameplan consists of. Its one thing for a head coach to let his assistants coach, but when something isn't working, he should become involved. Over the last 4 years, the Ravens defense has taken us to the playoffs. If the defense slips this year due to Suggs injury or loss of veterans, does anyone really think that the offense can pick up the slack?

You have to look at what the coaches are actually saying. The "coachspeak" sometimes actually DOES mean something. The two things you most commonly hear said about the offense when it isn't working is: 1) "we have to get better" and 2) "we need to execute." What do the coaches mean when they say "we need to execute?" It's simple--it means "the players are at fault."

Go back and read interviews from Cam and Harbaugh. Over and over again a theme emerges: Cam is doing great, but the players aren't executing. Our coaching staff is one of the very worst in the league at accepting blame and deflecting praise. When things go well it's good coaching; when they go bad it's the players letting the coaches down.

I've come to this conclusion over the past few years while paying close attention to the little things our coaches say and do. From the post-game interviews, to Harbaugh giving Cam Cameron the game ball and all the credit after our week 1 dismantling of the Steelers last year, and on and on... this coaching staff, while it does much well, is not at all adaptable and receptive to criticism.

**CRZA938** · 06-28-2012, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by GOTA

What's the cause of that? It sure looks like a general lack of faith in Flacco. The fear is that opening things up will lead to mistakes. Each year I hope that changes but so far that hasn't been the case.

I agree. Hopefully though the NE playoff game was the start of something bigger this year. The 1st quarter was painfully conservative and we got pounded. After giving Joe more rope, we saw success.

**flraven** · 06-28-2012, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by steelerhater

I'm not so sure about that. There've been several times where Harbaugh stated that the offense has to get better, while admitting that he has never attended an offensive meeting. I'm not sure that he has any idea what Cameron's gameplan consists of. Its one thing for a head coach to let his assistants coach, but when something isn't working, he should become involved. Over the last 4 years, the Ravens defense has taken us to the playoffs. If the defense slips this year due to Suggs injury or loss of veterans, does anyone really think that the offense can pick up the slack?

Wasn't this past season the season where Harbaugh would become more involved with the offensive gameplanning? Something has to change to get this offense to step on the gas and score more points. I know they've been saying that's the plan for this year, I suppose it's a wait-n-see.

**leachisabeast** · 06-28-2012, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by GOTA

What's the cause of that? It sure looks like a general lack of faith in Flacco. The fear is that opening things up will lead to mistakes. Each year I hope that changes but so far that hasn't been the case.

Would you really want to change a game plan that gets us to the play offs year in year out? I understand opening things up for Flacco, but It's hard to argue with 11-5, 9-7, 12-4, and 12-4 in all of his years in Baltimore so far. Two AFC Championship appearances, two divisional round games, and one dropped pass away from a SB. I think Baltimore are always going to be built around a conservative yet effective game plan while Harbaugh is here.

**jonboy79** · 06-28-2012, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Would you really want to change a game plan that gets us to the play offs year in year out? I understand opening things up for Flacco, but It's hard to argue with 11-5, 9-7, 12-4, and 12-4 in all of his years in Baltimore so far. Two AFC Championship appearances, two divisional round games, and one dropped pass away from a SB. I think Baltimore are always going to be built around a conservative yet effective game plan while Harbaugh is here.

Agreed. If Joe improves, this offense is great. If this offense is great, how could you fire the OC?

**Kevlar** · 06-28-2012, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Would you really want to change a game plan that gets us to the play offs year in year out? I understand opening things up for Flacco, but It's hard to argue with 11-5, 9-7, 12-4, and 12-4 in all of his years in Baltimore so far. Two AFC Championship appearances, two divisional round games, and one dropped pass away from a SB. I think Baltimore are always going to be built around a conservative yet effective game plan while Harbaugh is here.

Martyball works like that. You can play conservative on offense and tough defense and you will beat all the bad teams and most of the mediocre teams on your schedule. But come crunch time you can't put up enough points to hang with the big dogs. Your players and your play calls just aren't up to that level. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride...

**wickedsolo** · 06-28-2012, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

Cam Cameron will be with this team as long as John Harbaugh is. Same with Jerry Rosburg. Those are "His Guys"--they're not going anywhere.

I don't know if I 100% buy that.

**wickedsolo** · 06-28-2012, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

You have to look at what the coaches are actually saying. The "coachspeak" sometimes actually DOES mean something. The two things you most commonly hear said about the offense when it isn't working is: 1) "we have to get better" and 2) "we need to execute." What do the coaches mean when they say "we need to execute?" It's simple--it means "the players are at fault."

Go back and read interviews from Cam and Harbaugh. Over and over again a theme emerges: Cam is doing great, but the players aren't executing. Our coaching staff is one of the very worst in the league at accepting blame and deflecting praise. When things go well it's good coaching; when they go bad it's the players letting the coaches down.

I've come to this conclusion over the past few years while paying close attention to the little things our coaches say and do. From the post-game interviews, to Harbaugh giving Cam Cameron the game ball and all the credit after our week 1 dismantling of the Steelers last year, and on and on... this coaching staff, while it does much well, is not at all adaptable and receptive to criticism.

You are reading way too much into it.

If Bisciotti and Ozzie come down to Harbs and say this offense is going nowhere slow. Make a change or it's your ass, guess what he'll do? Make a change.

Cam wanted to be the QB's coach as well as the OC last year. They let him and it was statistically one of Flacco's least impressive seasons and the offense was still really off target at times during the regular season and in the post game.

So, they brought in Caldwell to be the QB's coach.

**BigPlayReceiver** · 06-28-2012, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

You are reading way too much into it.

If Bisciotti and Ozzie come down to Harbs and say this offense is going nowhere slow. Make a change or it's your ass, guess what he'll do? Make a change.

Cam wanted to be the QB's coach as well as the OC last year. They let him and it was statistically one of Flacco's least impressive seasons and the offense was still really off target at times during the regular season and in the post game.

So, they brought in Caldwell to be the QB's coach.

Pretty much agree, but I think the set-up is more like...

Bisciotti/Oz: John, we have the pieces together to get this done, but we believe (*show data*) that Cam is holding us back, so let's put our heads together for a replacement.

John: Um, hold on now... (*defends Cam, but loses*)

I don't think they'd come at Harbs with a "him or you" type of stance.