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  1. #85
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    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?



    I tried skimming through all the responses -- maybe this point has already been made and I missed it. But isn't their a logical flaw in the original question asked in this thread?

    Flacco is already playing at a relatively high level, albeit with some inconsistencies. If he starts consistently putting up solid numbers game in, game out, then you have to believe the offense will be really clicking. I can't imagine a season where we all agree that the quarterback has played great, but the offense sputtered.

    If better QB play = better offensive production, then it's hard to imagine how better offensive production = fired offensive coordinator.

    I understand that the original thought behind the question was that Caldwell would get the credit for getting an extra 10% out of Joe that Cam never got, but I just can't picture how that leads to leapfrogging the QB coach over the coordinator of a successful offense.

    If anything, I'd be more likely to believe that Joe struggling, and the offense never clicking, would be the cause of Cam losing his job. And then I could see them thinking, hey, it wasn't Caldwell's fault. He and Joe have a good relationship. Let's just elevate Jim to the coordinator's job.

    In short, upper management doesn't get fired when middle management performs well.




  2. #86

    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    I tried skimming through all the responses -- maybe this point has already been made and I missed it. But isn't their a logical flaw in the original question asked in this thread?

    Flacco is already playing at a relatively high level, albeit with some inconsistencies. If he starts consistently putting up solid numbers game in, game out, then you have to believe the offense will be really clicking. I can't imagine a season where we all agree that the quarterback has played great, but the offense sputtered.

    If better QB play = better offensive production, then it's hard to imagine how better offensive production = fired offensive coordinator.

    I understand that the original thought behind the question was that Caldwell would get the credit for getting an extra 10% out of Joe that Cam never got, but I just can't picture how that leads to leapfrogging the QB coach over the coordinator of a successful offense.

    If anything, I'd be more likely to believe that Joe struggling, and the offense never clicking, would be the cause of Cam losing his job. And then I could see them thinking, hey, it wasn't Caldwell's fault. He and Joe have a good relationship. Let's just elevate Jim to the coordinator's job.

    In short, upper management doesn't get fired when middle management performs well.
    If the offense becomes consistently good because Flacco plays at a high level and the Ravens get to and maybe win the SB then Cam might get some interviews to be an HC but he's definetly not going to be forced out because Caldwell might get some credit for Joe's new found consistency. Look at what's happened up in NY with the Giants. They've won 2 SB's with Kevin Gilbride as the OC and he's not going anywhere. Just like Cam, he had his shot and failed and maybe he's simply not going to get another shot for that reason or he no longer wants to be a HC.

    My take is that Cam wants another shot but he's probably not going to get it. We can all hope for this but as Joe gets better, it only entrenches Cam as our favorite OC.

    I feel that Joe is going to take a major leap this year so that reality may bear itself out.




  3. #87

    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Shaslers probably put this in its proper perspective. The only way that I could see Cameron out is if he is offered another job at the college level that is really enticing. I do not see any other NFL positions opening for him, even if the offense is successful. Then again, Joe could make the promotion of Jim Caldwell a major factor in negotiations, by that point. I doubt that he would, but he could always give a little elbow nudge and whisper. lol.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  4. #88

    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsfan82 View Post
    This. I wonder what he would have done the first time he saw Boldin covered by Julian Edelman.
    I think that's where Cam and the Harbaugh have to let Joe run the offense through the line of scrimmage. If Edleman was truly single covering Q then Joe should've been able to at least adjust Q's route to attack him. My thinking though is that NE figured they'd take a chance with Q catching short passes for relatively short gains versus getting beat deep by Torrey.

    It's not always as easy as it looks.




  5. #89

    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsfan82 View Post
    I wonder what he would have done the first time he saw Boldin covered by Julian Edelman.
    According to the play-by-play on NFL.com, of the 9 plays (not counting the kick) the Ravens ran on their final drive, 5 of them went toward Boldin.

    Here are the plays that did not go to Boldin:
    2-10-BAL 21 (1:39) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass short left to 88-D.Pitta to BAL 26 for 5 yards (25-P.Chung).
    1-10-BAL 39 (1:09) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass incomplete short middle to 27-R.Rice (51-J.Mayo).
    2-1-NE 14 (:27) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass incomplete short right to 83-L.Evans (29-S.Moore). (Should have been touchdown)
    3-1-NE 14 (:22) (Shotgun) 5-J.Flacco pass incomplete short right to 88-D.Pitta (29-S.Moore) [52-D.Fletcher]
    Twice to Pitta, once to Rice, and once to Evans in the end zone. On the other plays, Flacco completed 4 passes for 60 yards to Boldin.

    It's not like the Ravens ignored the matchup.




  6. #90

    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    I just re-looked at that play-by-play. Is it possible that those passes to Boldin on the final drive were the first ones thrown his way, since 9:17 in the second quarter?!?? Is that possible at all??




  7. #91
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    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post
    I just re-looked at that play-by-play. Is it possible that those passes to Boldin on the final drive were the first ones thrown his way, since 9:17 in the second quarter?!?? Is that possible at all??
    The point is, an aggressive OC would attacked that matchup beginning on the first or second drive and forced the Pats to adjust.




  8. #92
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    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by purplepoe View Post
    How can you leave out the QB though?

    We're talking about the offense as a whole.

    QB is easily the more important ingredient.

    Am I missing something?

    PP
    The argument is, if Sean could do any better with our offense than what Cam has. I think the answer to that is yes, a lot better. Drew Brees is obviously a better QB than Flacco, but when Cam was the OC at San Diego with Brees as the QB, he never looked all that great as he does now, and that was with a lot of weapons. We don't have the best of weapons on the league, but we have good enough weapons to be a more effective offense than what it currently is.




  9. #93

    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    The argument is, if Sean could do any better with our offense than what Cam has. I think the answer to that is yes, a lot better. Drew Brees is obviously a better QB than Flacco, but when Cam was the OC at San Diego with Brees as the QB, he never looked all that great as he does now, and that was with a lot of weapons. We don't have the best of weapons on the league, but we have good enough weapons to be a more effective offense than what it currently is.
    Brees is better.

    Line is better.

    TE is better.

    WR are better.

    Might Payton come in and somewhat improve the offensive production? I'd say so. But not nearly to the extent many believe.

    The talent on the Ravens offense just isn't close to that of the Saints.

    PP




  10. #94
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    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by purplepoe View Post
    Brees is better.

    Line is better.

    TE is better.

    WR are better.

    Might Payton come in and somewhat improve the offensive production? I'd say so. But not nearly to the extent many believe.

    The talent on the Ravens offense just isn't close to that of the Saints.

    PP
    Well apart from Colston, what other WR do the Saints have that wows you? I'd say that the Ravens arguably have a better overall WR core than the Saints currently have. Boldin and Torrey Smith aren't as good as Colston, but they are better than whoever else they have now. They had Robert Meachem who left for San Diego, and he didn't even get 700 yards.

    The Saints have a more overall talented offense built around Brees, and yes it would be easier for Payton to call in that defensively weak division, playing in one of the best domes in the league. But lets say you switch offensive weapons with Baltimore and New Orleans. We get Colston and all their other WR's, we also get Jimmy Grahame and Sproles. Sean Payton gets AnQuan Boldin, Torrey Smith, Ray Rice, Ed Dickson, Dennis pitta and a couple of young WR's with potencial (Tandon Doss, LaQuan Williams etc). The QB's and offensive lines remain the same on both teams. Would the Saints be all that less effective?




  11. #95

    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsfan82 View Post
    The point is, an aggressive OC would attacked that matchup beginning on the first or second drive and forced the Pats to adjust.
    But they didn't have Edelman on Boldin during the 1st & 2nd drives, did they? I thought the Pats only went with Edelman late in the game, after their regular DB got hurt.

    Collinsworth or whoever was doing the game noticed before the Ravens did, I think a whole drive or so before the Ravens noticed, and he was yelling about it. I think that gives us the impression that Edelman was out there forever, untargeted by us. But it wasn't really the whole game.




  12. #96

    Re: If Flacco improves, could Caldwell replace Cam in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    when Cam was the OC at San Diego with Brees as the QB, he never looked all that great as he does now, and that was with a lot of weapons.
    People say stuff like that on this board all the time. "Brees and Rivers didn't put up massive numbers under Cam, so Cam sucks as an OC." It's a really stupid argument, and I'd like to confront it. The misinformation in that argument should not be allowed to stand.

    Drew Brees was drafted by the Chargers in 2001. His rookie year they Mike Riley, with Norv as OC. Doug Flutie was the started; Brees threw 27 passes. Marty and Cam came along the next season, so Brees was under Cam as a 2nd-year player. Brees played under Cam for 5 seasons, 2002-2005. He took over as the starting QB his first season under Cam, 2002, then missed 5 games and had a crappy season in 2003 (prompting the Chargers to draft Rivers), then made the Pro Bowl in 2004. So under Cam, Brees went from a young QB who had never been the starter, to an established Pro Bowl QB.

    Here are Brees' stats under Cam:
    Code:
    Att   Yards   TD   INT  Y/A
    526   3284    17   16   6 2
    356   2108    11   15   5.9
    400   3159    27    7   7.9*
    500   3576    24   15   7.2
    Except for the blip in 2003 when he missed 5 games (2nd line above), this is nice steady growth for a young QB. Brees took a small step back in efficiency from 2004 to 2005, but 2005 is still a very solid season.

    So what happened when Brees got to Sean Payton in New Orleans? Check out his pass attempts:
    Code:
    Year   Att
    2006   554
    2007   652
    2008   635
    They just threw the ball a lot more. Brees was not a ton more efficient when he got to New Orleans. His yards-per-pass-attempt in 2006 was just a smidge above his ypa in his Pro Bowl season with Cam in 2004: 8.0 to 7.9. His TD pct was actually lower his first two seasons in New Orleans than it had been his last season under Cam: 4.7 and 4.3 in 2006-7, vs 4.8 in 2005. Even when his TD pctg started to climb in New Orleans, it still was not as high as in his best season under Cam (6.8 in 2004). It was not until this past season that Brees finally posted a TD pct in New Orleans that beat his best number under Cam.

    I don't mean to belittle Sean Payton or Drew Brees. Brees is a magnificent QB, and Payton is an aggressive, creative OC. But it's a volume passing attack. Brees puts up big numbers because they throw the ball a ton. Their run/pass ration is heavy to the pass. The Ravens believe in a balanced offense, and their run/pass ratio reflects that. (Which makes sense when you have Ray Rice.)

    When you look at Brees under Cam vs Brees under Payton, the difference is that under Cam Brees was a young QB being groomed into a regular starter and Pro Bowler, vs under Payton Brees was already an established Pro Bowler so they opened up the offense.

    Same pattern for Rivers. Rivers only played under Cam for 3 seasons, 2004-6. And Brees was the starter for those first two seasons. Rivers developed under Cam and made the Pro Bowl as a first-time starter in 2006. Rivers continued to grow after Cam left, and has become one of the most dangerous and productive passers in the league. That's a testament to Rivers; but it doesn't mean Cam was holding him back. In fact it looks like a pretty smooth progression, from not starting his rookie season to consistently posting passer ratings in the hundreds, other than a small regression the year after Cam left.

    When I think of OC's who hold back QBs and retard their growth, I usually worry about the coach ruining the QB. I think there are a ton of QBs who never reach their potential, because they get bad coaching in the NFL. You see this all the time: guys who get shell-shocked as rookies, and never fulfilled their potential. Joey Harrington. David Carr. Alex Smith, although he had a good season last year.

    When you look at Brees and Rivers, they clearly were not "ruined" by Cam. If anything, the opposite. The more reasonable interpretation is that Brees and Rivers built a good foundation of fundamentals their first few seasons under Cam, which they were able to continue to build upon as mature QBs, into consistent Pro-Bowl and All-Pro type performances.




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