I knew it!!!

[B-more Ravor]

Um, you remember what he did against us in the playoffs seven months ago, right?

- C -

The fumbled punt was an out of the ordinary occurrence for him.

Just like Rice coughing the ball up in the playoffs against Pitts in 2009 and Heap against the Colts in 2006.

[wickedsolo]

From Tony's update:

Jacoby Jones quit on a 9 route. Graham didn’t and made an outstanding catch deep in the end zone for the touchback.

Speaking of Jacoby Jones, just when you thought that he was settling in nicely and showcasing decent hands, a pass caroms off his mitts and into those of LB Albert McClellan who took it to the house for a pick 6.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

If we don't bring in recievers because they have dropped passes then we may as well play the wishbone, because every reciever even the best drops passes. This thread is a little over the top.

Way over the top. I have completely disagreed with a lot of moves the Ravens have made over the years...but I have never basically started "I told you so" threads in freaking training camp.

While I agree with your overall "wait and see" approach, this line is disingenuous. Comparing a guy who has 179 career receptions in 5 seasons to a guy who has averaged over 110 receptions per season (Welker) during that same time period. Jacoby Jones' top receiving performance was 2 season ago with 562 yards on 51 receptions. Steve Smith was 6 yards shy of 1400 yards last year with a rookie QB and no other WR to speak of.

You can't compare Jacoby Jones to any starting-caliber receiver in any receiving category, IMO. There is too much statistical variance.

It was just a stat to show that the guy isn't Patrick Stonehands Johnson out there.

In any rate, I think drop rate is a solid stat as it is the only one that takes into account the number of catchable balls thrown someone's way. Is he going to drop some balls? I'm sure he will. Just like every WR out there. But instead of dreading him dropping a late 4th quarter pass, maybe he helps blow some close games open for us? The guy brings some skills here that we haven't had in a while.

[wickedsolo]

Way over the top. I have completely disagreed with a lot of moves the Ravens have made over the years...but I have never basically started "I told you so" threads in freaking training camp.



It was just a stat to show that the guy isn't Patrick Stonehands Johnson out there.

In any rate, I think drop rate is a solid stat as it is the only one that takes into account the number of catchable balls thrown someone's way. Is he going to drop some balls? I'm sure he will. Just like every WR out there. But instead of dreading him dropping a late 4th quarter pass, maybe he helps blow some close games open for us? The guy brings some skills here that we haven't had in a while.

Like I said earlier in the thread, I am not a real big fan of the signing because I've never thought he was a very good receiver, but if he can produce 35-45 receptions and 500 yards as a #3 receiver, then great. He's got speed and he's tall (6'3" 210lbs) and he can jump really well. All he needs to do is catch a deep pass or two in a game to make other defenses pay attention to him and take some heat off of Boldin and Torrey. That alone will help the offense.

I just think about him on the Texans and they had a pretty good QB in Schaub and they had a better ground game and a better #1 receiver than the Ravens currently have and he was just kind of a disappointment. Lots of natural ability, but really inconsistent. Also, considering who the Ravens have developing receivers, I doubt that Hostler is going to be able to do much more with him than what he already brings to the table. The Ravens are not very good at developing receivers.

[JAB1985]

Way over the top. I have completely disagreed with a lot of moves the Ravens have made over the years...but I have never basically started "I told you so" threads in freaking training camp.



It was just a stat to show that the guy isn't Patrick Stonehands Johnson out there.

In any rate, I think drop rate is a solid stat as it is the only one that takes into account the number of catchable balls thrown someone's way. Is he going to drop some balls? I'm sure he will. Just like every WR out there. But instead of dreading him dropping a late 4th quarter pass, maybe he helps blow some close games open for us? The guy brings some skills here that we haven't had in a while.

any stat that has opinion entwined with it seems a little less strong imo. when someone calls something "catchable" that can vary between opinions as much as black and white. who deems what is and isnt catchable and is that something that can be undeniably carried out across the board? probably not. maybe my unfamiliarity with it is leaving out something?

with that said i do think he can help the offense even by being only moderate at being able to catch the ball. theyll have to respect his speed regardless if hes catching everything or not because its a TD or nothing. you leave him open hes going to catch it more often than not. teams dont respect that, it wont take long for him to prove it true.

The Ravens are not very good at developing receivers.

I do think this will change now that we have an actual QB. still a wait and see at this point but i do think Flacco has that ability mildly at the moment despite our system thats not the most WR friendly.

[Mike B]

Way over the top. I have completely disagreed with a lot of moves the Ravens have made over the years...but I have never basically started "I told you so" threads in freaking training camp.



It was just a stat to show that the guy isn't Patrick Stonehands Johnson out there.

In any rate, I think drop rate is a solid stat as it is the only one that takes into account the number of catchable balls thrown someone's way. Is he going to drop some balls? I'm sure he will. Just like every WR out there. But instead of dreading him dropping a late 4th quarter pass, maybe he helps blow some close games open for us? The guy brings some skills here that we haven't had in a while.

Good Post. and right on.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Like I said earlier in the thread, I am not a real big fan of the signing because I've never thought he was a very good receiver, but if he can produce 35-45 receptions and 500 yards as a #3 receiver, then great. He's got speed and he's tall (6'3" 210lbs) and he can jump really well. All he needs to do is catch a deep pass or two in a game to make other defenses pay attention to him and take some heat off of Boldin and Torrey. That alone will help the offense.

I just think about him on the Texans and they had a pretty good QB in Schaub and they had a better ground game and a better #1 receiver than the Ravens currently have and he was just kind of a disappointment. Lots of natural ability, but really inconsistent. Also, considering who the Ravens have developing receivers, I doubt that Hostler is going to be able to do much more with him than what he already brings to the table. The Ravens are not very good at developing receivers.

I don't doubt that if we asked him to start he would be a big disappointment.

But he definitely won't be starting here and frankly, I'm not sure he has the 3rd spot all to himself and wrapped up right now.

That's part of why this thread is ridiculous to me...we don't even know his role or the roles of his main competitor for that 3rd spot right now...Doss.

I'm not saying I think it was a great signing or that I expect the guy to be great in the 3rd spot, but I am saying he is better than what we had out there for the 3rd spot last year.

[The Excellector]

Come on, you guys know me, you know that I sometimes have fun with it. Then again, you guys probably know me and know that I will run this into the ground if it manifests itself in-season. lol.

Doss is interesting, because although I wanted to see him get more playing time for his pass catching ability, he is systematically a similar fit to that of Boldin and the way they are now trying to use him more. I heard that Doss is more explosive now, but I'm not sure how much more explosion a known possession WR can gain. Then again, they ran this offense for three years with Mason as the primary WR and his speed left him years prior (Was never really a 'blazer' anyway).

That is one reason why I think that Torrey got the push over him. Torrey was much more of a systematic need. However, Jones now represents something very similar. Which is why he could end up as the third, unless he 'completely' blows it.

[dreamjo]

I have a question for the regular participants here - are you satisfied with the return game?

I'm not. I really haven't been satisfied with the return game since Jim Leonhard left with Rex before Harbaugh's second year. I really think ST are important. Aside from defensive turnovers (and, granted, the Ravens tend to be more blessed in that area that other teams), ST determines the offense's every possession. Statistically speaking, this offense's personnel is more potent than the previous regime had, but that offense (particularly the Superbowl year) got great help from ST. I kind of think of it like a pitcher in baseball getting run-support. If this offense got the kind of "run-support" from ST the old one did, they'd be fairly hard to beat. Helps the defense, too.

So, I get the impression that the Ravens have decided it's become too important to keep trying to groom a returner from the roster, that it's worth a FA signing to try and get some more production out of that area. I can't really disagree. But, in the JJ signing threads I see on here, the discussion always focuses on the WR aspect, leading me to believe that I'm in a fairly small number of Ravens' fans concerned about the return game. Am I just being silly and it isn't a big deal?

[leachisabeast]

I have a question for the regular participants here - are you satisfied with the return game?

I'm not. I really haven't been satisfied with the return game since Jim Leonhard left with Rex before Harbaugh's second year. I really think ST are important. Aside from defensive turnovers (and, granted, the Ravens tend to be more blessed in that area that other teams), ST determines the offense's every possession. Statistically speaking, this offense's personnel is more potent than the previous regime had, but that offense (particularly the Superbowl year) got great help from ST. I kind of think of it like a pitcher in baseball getting run-support. If this offense got the kind of "run-support" from ST the old one did, they'd be fairly hard to beat. Helps the defense, too.

So, I get the impression that the Ravens have decided it's become too important to keep trying to groom a returner from the roster, that it's worth a FA signing to try and get some more production out of that area. I can't really disagree. But, in the JJ signing threads I see on here, the discussion always focuses on the WR aspect, leading me to believe that I'm in a fairly small number of Ravens' fans concerned about the return game. Am I just being silly and it isn't a big deal?

Good post indeed.

[JAB1985]

I have a question for the regular participants here - are you satisfied with the return game?

I'm not. I really haven't been satisfied with the return game since Jim Leonhard left with Rex before Harbaugh's second year. I really think ST are important. Aside from defensive turnovers (and, granted, the Ravens tend to be more blessed in that area that other teams), ST determines the offense's every possession. Statistically speaking, this offense's personnel is more potent than the previous regime had, but that offense (particularly the Superbowl year) got great help from ST. I kind of think of it like a pitcher in baseball getting run-support. If this offense got the kind of "run-support" from ST the old one did, they'd be fairly hard to beat. Helps the defense, too.

So, I get the impression that the Ravens have decided it's become too important to keep trying to groom a returner from the roster, that it's worth a FA signing to try and get some more production out of that area. I can't really disagree. But, in the JJ signing threads I see on here, the discussion always focuses on the WR aspect, leading me to believe that I'm in a fairly small number of Ravens' fans concerned about the return game. Am I just being silly and it isn't a big deal?

i dont necessarily disagree with you but at the same time, when david reed was healthy we had a top performing return game. unfortunately its depth at that position we lacked not ability. I think parmele was actually pretty decent as a backup. once we lost him weve struggled to replace him. I dont remember Doss getting a chance even though he was a great college returner, i believe smith was in the battle and may have even returned a few. i think in Jones case it usually becomes talk of WR because he was paid pretty well to come here, more than just a KR in more peoples eyes. 3.5 million/year as opposed to ted ginn who signed a 1 year 1.375, who we had in for that very same role. to me thats the difference, even if his primary job is KR, they paid him to be more. contract breakdown im a little fuzzy on but i believe its 1.6 year 1 with 900k in dead money if we release him next year. so its essentially a 2.5 million 1 year deal, worst case scenario, for a guy that doesnt excel at KR as much as Ginn did i believe.

I dont like the signing, but i do think hell give us value regardless of his shortcomings. hopefully he does improve the KR team and give us more depth with Jackson now.

[BigPlayReceiver]

I have a question for the regular participants here - are you satisfied with the return game?

I'm not. I really haven't been satisfied with the return game since Jim Leonhard left with Rex before Harbaugh's second year. I really think ST are important. Aside from defensive turnovers (and, granted, the Ravens tend to be more blessed in that area that other teams), ST determines the offense's every possession. Statistically speaking, this offense's personnel is more potent than the previous regime had, but that offense (particularly the Superbowl year) got great help from ST. I kind of think of it like a pitcher in baseball getting run-support. If this offense got the kind of "run-support" from ST the old one did, they'd be fairly hard to beat. Helps the defense, too.

So, I get the impression that the Ravens have decided it's become too important to keep trying to groom a returner from the roster, that it's worth a FA signing to try and get some more production out of that area. I can't really disagree. But, in the JJ signing threads I see on here, the discussion always focuses on the WR aspect, leading me to believe that I'm in a fairly small number of Ravens' fans concerned about the return game. Am I just being silly and it isn't a big deal?

I'm with ya.

Although, I've read that Webb has been in the PR mix, certainly no one wants to see a $50M man exposed to the hard and often low hits that he could take in that role. Also, DReed is hobbled and will be released or IR'd for sure this summer, as many are presuming (me included). Certainly, we don't need 31 year old Ed Reed back there either. Jones was brought in here to shine in that role; and there's no doubt in my mind that in order to get him here, we verbally committed to making him the de facto #3; and that job will be his until he loses it. So I think folks need to get used to him running the 3.

More to your greater point...the cliche about ST is that a bad ST performance can lose you games, and this cliche has historically been centered on kick/punt coverage. The re/signings of Banjo, Graham and Considine, and the drafting of cats like CThompson and Jackson should keep us in good shape there.

However, I think we have decided to flip the cliche around and adopt the attitude that ST can (oh-by-the-way) win you games too, and they should be constructed as such. That along with the fact that we also had to replace a couple of solid STers that left us this year explains the moves we've made. So while KR/PR is certainly key...it's the entire unit(s) that we have tried to upgrade. In a tough division, and a tough league where 10-6 might not get you to the playoffs, every advantage is going to count. Our DB and LB depth, veteran toughness and team speed are going to serve us well.

[SC_Raven_Fan]

Despite all the yakking here, it appears that much-maligned Cameron will be waking up this year and using 3receiver sets more often (I'll see it when I believe it) that will consist of:
Smith, Jones and Boldin

Jacoby is being paid several million to participate in two phases of the game, not just one. Torrey and Jacoby will leave Boldin, Rice and Dickson/Pitta available for some nice mismatches.

I was not excited about the signing, but Ozzie likes to sign guys who burned his team before, and Jacoby made the game closer than it had to be when the Texans came to the Bank last season. I remember the kickoff gift in the playoffs, too. That's why I wasn't impressed with the signing.
However, I bet Ozzie has a file on Jacoby from when before the draft, and decided he would add him to the mix because he was on their board in 2008.
Here is Rotoworld's summation of his contract:

Jones received a $1.8 million prorated signing bonus, but the Ravens could free up $4 million next offseason by releasing him. Jones is due a $3 million 2013 base salary, with a $1 million roster bonus in the spring. He'll only last one season as a Raven unless he turns it on as a starting-capable wideout.

The guy can be good. I hope he makes me a believer.

[GOTA]

I'm with ya.

Although, I've read that Webb has been in the PR mix, certainly no one wants to see a $50M man exposed to the hard and often low hits that he could take in that role. Also, DReed is hobbled and will be released or IR'd for sure this summer, as many are presuming (me included). Certainly, we don't need 31 year old Ed Reed back there either. Jones was brought in here to shine in that role; and there's no doubt in my mind that in order to get him here, we verbally committed to making him the de facto #3; and that job will be his until he loses it. So I think folks need to get used to him running the 3.

More to your greater point...the cliche about ST is that a bad ST performance can lose you games, and this cliche has historically been centered on kick/punt coverage. The re/signings of Banjo, Graham and Considine, and the drafting of cats like CThompson and Jackson should keep us in good shape there.

However, I think we have decided to flip the cliche around and adopt the attitude that ST can (oh-by-the-way) win you games too, and they should be constructed as such. That along with the fact that we also had to replace a couple of solid STers that left us this year explains the moves we've made. So while KR/PR is certainly key...it's the entire unit(s) that we have tried to upgrade. In a tough division, and a tough league where 10-6 might not get you to the playoffs, every advantage is going to count. Our DB and LB depth, veteran toughness and team speed are going to serve us well.

Ed Reed is going to be 34 on 9/11. If we don't want 31 year old Ed Reed back there we really don't want 34 year old Ed Reed out there.

[BigPlayReceiver]

lol...thanks Gota. I was doing the math in my head, and Ed's age looked wrong as hell when I typed it, but I was too lazy to Google it.

[GOTA]

lol...thanks Gota. I was doing the math in my head, and Ed's age looked wrong as hell when I typed it, but I was too lazy to Google it.

If anything it proves your point even more.

I just hope they really do see it that way. Maybe the problem is we all remember Patrick Johnson and Jermaine Lewis being force fed into the offense. The guys who made those decisions though are long gone.

[The Excellector]

I have a question for the regular participants here - are you satisfied with the return game?

I'm not. I really haven't been satisfied with the return game since Jim Leonhard left with Rex before Harbaugh's second year. I really think ST are important. Aside from defensive turnovers (and, granted, the Ravens tend to be more blessed in that area that other teams), ST determines the offense's every possession. Statistically speaking, this offense's personnel is more potent than the previous regime had, but that offense (particularly the Superbowl year) got great help from ST. I kind of think of it like a pitcher in baseball getting run-support. If this offense got the kind of "run-support" from ST the old one did, they'd be fairly hard to beat. Helps the defense, too.

So, I get the impression that the Ravens have decided it's become too important to keep trying to groom a returner from the roster, that it's worth a FA signing to try and get some more production out of that area. I can't really disagree. But, in the JJ signing threads I see on here, the discussion always focuses on the WR aspect, leading me to believe that I'm in a fairly small number of Ravens' fans concerned about the return game. Am I just being silly and it isn't a big deal?

You're not being silly. We just think that he was brought in to be more than a returner, even though that will be his primary role. We are skeptical. We all agree that we needed better play from our returners, even though Webb was good (We don't want him returning punts anyway).

[BigPlayReceiver]

Aaron Wilson tweet:
Jacoby Jones outran Jimmy Smith on a fly route for a long touchdown from Joe Flacco

This right here. Only 7, 8 and 9 routes, please b/c if TSmith has become only a marginally better route runner in the OS, we don't need anything else from Jones.

[The Excellector]

This right here. Only 7, 8 and 9 routes, please b/c if TSmith has become only a marginally better route runner in the OS, we don't need anything else from Jones.

Do not buy into this lulling temptation. Only the reports that I quote about his man are accurate. lol The rest is mere fallacy, and nothing more.

[wickedsolo]

Didn't Jimmy hurt his foot or leg today or something?

It's nice to see Jacoby not dropping a pass while being covered by Jimmy, BUT he also had a pass bounce right off of his hands and into the arms of Albert McClellan.